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S.F Circumcision ban vs. Religious Freedom


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#1    darkmoonlady

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 04:28 PM

http://religion.blog...com/2011/06/10/

It seems the Evangelical community is throwing its weight behind opposition to the ban on circumcision based on the Abrahamic root of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Calling it a religious debate seems to me to be shifting it away from the human rights issues. Female genital mutilations are considered a human rights violation based on gender, so why not circumcision? I could understand invoking religious freedom if it were adults who were making this decision however, tradition seems to me to be a weak excuse. The bible also calls for stoning people and treatment of women like property, so how is that an acceptable or valid reason to continue circumcision. For the record I'm against it for infants, if someeone wants it after the age of consent then go for it. What do you think?

“The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance …or change... logic can be happily tossed out the window. Religious mania is one of the few infallible ways of responding to the worlds vagaries, because it totally eliminates pure accident. To the true religious maniac, it’s ALL on purpose” – Stephen King, The Stand

#2    The Silver Thong

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 04:36 PM

The Evangelical community are full of extremists and I thumb my nose at them.

There is a thread on this already, 35 pages I think. I suggest asking to have the Evangelical element merged with that thread.

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#3    shadowhive

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 04:37 PM

I agree, it's pretty archacic.

If an adult wants one, that's their decision but it should never be done to a child and religon certainly shouldn't be used an excuse for it.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
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#4    darkmoonlady

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 06:06 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 11 June 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

The Evangelical community are full of extremists and I thumb my nose at them.

There is a thread on this already, 35 pages I think. I suggest asking to have the Evangelical element merged with that thread.
The reason I started this is that the Evangicals basically have no dog in this fight, other than being based on Abraham which is a stretch. I don't cotton to evangelical thinking either, I just think it is interesting that they are joining a fight that really doesn't effect them as a means of what? Solidarity? They aren't interested in a big hugfest with Jews or Muslims I just thought it was interesting that they got in the fray. I find it hard to believe it is about religious freedom at all. I was more curious as to what others thought of evangelical involvement and why they aren't at all interested in human rights. I never once saw evangelicals condone female genital mutilation which some Islamic believers find to be a religious matter.

“The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance …or change... logic can be happily tossed out the window. Religious mania is one of the few infallible ways of responding to the worlds vagaries, because it totally eliminates pure accident. To the true religious maniac, it’s ALL on purpose” – Stephen King, The Stand

#5    Volatile32

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 06:31 PM

I agree the Evangelical community does have a large share of extremist but why does SF seem to harbor such a liberal crowd that makes most Judeo-Christian belief sets and for that matter some US beliefs wrong? It seems to me that this area will ban anything no matter how insignificant. Just wondering when the idiocy will end...
More on topic, I am a male, I was circumcised before I was brought home from the hospital. I do not remember it. It has not affected me in any way that I can think of. I say what is wrong with it?

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Edited by Lei Ren, 11 June 2011 - 06:39 PM.


#6    mklsgl

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 08:29 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 11 June 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

I agree, it's pretty archacic.

If an adult wants one, that's their decision but it should never be done to a child and religon certainly shouldn't be used an excuse for it.

It's a bit different for Jews because it's not just a circumcision (Bris), it's the giving of a Hebrew name to a Jewish male on the 8th day of his life. I'd like to see how many Mohels and Jewish parents are arrested for it.

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#7    shadowhive

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 09:41 PM

View Postmklsgl, on 11 June 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:

It's a bit different for Jews because it's not just a circumcision (Bris), it's the giving of a Hebrew name to a Jewish male on the 8th day of his life. I'd like to see how many Mohels and Jewish parents are arrested for it.

I'll repeat: religion shouldn't have a way to legitimise essentially mutilating babies. All too often x religion has ways of getting past all kinds of laws when no religion should. If the ban passes, those people that you mention should be the first to be arrested and not get out of it.

Edited by shadowhive, 11 June 2011 - 09:44 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#8    Volatile32

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 09:45 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 11 June 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

I'll repeat: religion shouldn't have a way to legitimise essentially mutilating babies. All too often x religion has ways of getting past all kinds of laws when no religion should.

Is it not true that female circumcision is often done in the teenage years whereas male circumcision is usually done within days of birth? I also wonder what are the benefits of males being uncircumcised as opposed to being circumcised?


#9    shadowhive

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 10:11 PM

View PostLei Ren, on 11 June 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

Is it not true that female circumcision is often done in the teenage years whereas male circumcision is usually done within days of birth? I also wonder what are the benefits of males being uncircumcised as opposed to being circumcised?

There;s no benefit to be c$ircumcised or not there's a lot of propoganda but none of it is true.

Circumcision for both genders should be banned until adult years and only then should an adult be allowed to make an INFORMED decision.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#10    ShadowSot

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 10:20 PM

View Postmklsgl, on 11 June 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:

It's a bit different for Jews because it's not just a circumcision (Bris), it's the giving of a Hebrew name to a Jewish male on the 8th day of his life. I'd like to see how many Mohels and Jewish parents are arrested for it.
It also includes the rabbi sucking on the little boys penis when it's circumcised.

Don't know how people are alright with that...

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#11    danielost

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 10:50 PM

this isnt about mutulation of a child, this is about religious freedom.  

this is the same city that tried to force the whole country into accepting same sex marriage.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
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#12    shadowhive

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 10:58 PM

View Postdanielost, on 11 June 2011 - 10:50 PM, said:

this isnt about mutulation of a child, this is about religious freedom.  

this is the same city that tried to force the whole country into accepting same sex marriage.

This is about mutilation masking itself as religious freedom. If there was a religion that commanded it's members to have one of their own fingers cut off to be a part of it, how long do you think that would last?

Those things are hardly the same. One is physically removing something from achild, the other is about a loving commitment between two pwople.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#13    Karlis

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 11:16 PM

View PostShadowSot, on 11 June 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

It also includes the rabbi sucking on the little boys penis when it's circumcised.

Don't know how people are alright with that...
ShadowSot, innuendo implying a reprehensible purpose, without explaining the real purpose is a disingenuous way of attempting to sway an argument. May I suggest that you should have explained the purposes of "
Metzitzah" instead of insinuating some type of deviant sexual action.





#14    ShadowSot

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 01:56 AM

View PostKarlis, on 11 June 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

ShadowSot, innuendo implying a reprehensible purpose, without explaining the real purpose is a disingenuous way of attempting to sway an argument. May I suggest that you should have explained the purposes of "Metzitzah" instead of insinuating some type of deviant sexual action.





  Ah, so it's fine so long as it's part of religious ritual then?

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#15    Mr Walker

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:57 AM

Circumscion (male) can stand alone on medical grounds. Religion need not play a part in deciding for or against it. When i was born, medical not religious opinion was almost unanimously in favour of circumscision for male infants, and so over 90 percent of males i nmy time in austrlalia were circumscise. I never met an uncircumscised male until i was an adult. Today after declining, circumscion is making a comeback on medical grounds in australia again. There are many medical reasons for this but one of the strongest is the correlation between being circumscised and reducing cerival cancer in females. Cervical cancer is  caused by  a virus and, apparently, circumscision greatly reduces the transmission of that virus.


Quote

SUMMARY
Circumcision of males represents a "surgical vaccine" against a wide variety of infections, adverse medical conditions and potentially fatal diseases over their lifetime, and also protects their sexual partners. In experienced hands, this common, inexpensive procedure is very safe, and can be pain-free. Although it can be performed at any age, the ideal time is infancy. The benefits vastly outweigh risks.

The public health benefits are enormous, and include protection from urinary tract infections, that are common over the lifetime, inferior genital hygiene, smegma, sexually transmitted HIV, oncogenic types of human papillomavirus, genital herpes, syphilis and chancroid, penile cancer, and possibly prostate cancer, phimosis, paraphimosis, thrush, and inflammatory skin conditions such as balanitis and balanoposthitis. In women circumcision of the male partner provides substantial protection from cervical cancer, genital herpes,  bacterial vaginosis (formerly termed "gardnerella"), possibly Chlamydia (that can cause pelvic inflammatory disease, infertility, and ectopic pregnancy), and other infections.

Circumcision has socio-sexual benefits and reduces sexual problems with age and diabetes. It has no adverse effect on penile sensitivity, erectile function, or sensation during sexual arousal and is reported to enhance the sexual experience for men. Most women prefer the circumcised penis for appearance, hygiene, lower infection risk and sexual activity. At least half of all uncircumcised males will develop one or more problems over their lifetime caused by their foreskin, and many will suffer and die as a result. The benefits exceed the risks by over 100 to 1, and if fatalities are taken into account in men and their sexual partners the benefit is orders of magnitude higher than this. Given the convincing epidemiological evidence and biological support, routine circumcision should be highly recommended by all health professionals.

http://www.circinfo.net/

I can tverify the impartiality or particular bias (if any) of the author here, but the facts about cervical cancer are repeated in many articles and journals in Austrlaia and are in part the reason for a resurgence in male circumscision in the last 10 years.
Even the 'official medical position feels the position delicately balanced enogh to leave to a parental decision.

Quote

AustralasiaThe Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP; September 2010) state that "After reviewing the currently available evidence, the RACP believes that the frequency of diseases modifiable by circumcision, the level of protection offered by circumcision and the complication rates of circumcision do not warrant routine infant circumcision in Australia and New Zealand. However it is reasonable for parents to weigh the benefits and risks of circumcision and to make the decision whether or not to circumcise their sons."[214]


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Circumcision

In other words, while the evidence is not compelling enough to institute universal circumscision as in the middle of last century, it is enough to be taken seriously into consideration, on an individual basis.
And that is medical, not religious, opinion.

Edited by Mr Walker, 12 June 2011 - 06:00 AM.

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