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S.F Circumcision ban vs. Religious Freedom


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#121    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 11:27 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 17 June 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

And if removing that foreskin is proven, statistically, to offer many lifetime benefits  for the person and for others?

Just because it is "natural" and found on everyone, doesn't automatically mean it is best, or "most fit" for us. We are already working to enhance human physical abilities and mental capabilities, rather than just accept what we are born with because it is "natural"
That is the thing about humans. We CAN improve ourselves from what nature and evolution have given us.



Why are you against infant boys having the chop?

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#122    ShaoTingSun

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 12:57 PM

Hi all. . .my thoughts on this subject are as follows.  If one was truly worried about the welfare of these children wouldn't the fire in this debate be better served towards something along the lines of stopping bullying?  As far as I'm concerned the only people who benefit from bringing religion into this argument are the ones against it calling it an ancient barbaric practice.  No one wishes to be told how to raise their child and if you truly want to end this practice you must attack the competency of doctors and parents alike.  That will never happen so I suggest taking up a fight that will have lasting effects on these children.


#123    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 05:01 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 17 June 2011 - 11:27 AM, said:

Why are you against infant boys having the chop?
Im not against it.

I take the advice of the australian medical association. A parent should get medical advice and act in the interest of the child. personally i know  circumscision of a young child leaves no trace, mentally. I never even knew i was circumscised until i was over 20. Every young boy /man i saw naked in showers etc looked the same as me, becuase well over 90% of baby boys were circumscised in Australia (for purely medical reasons) in the period when i was born.

I dont think circumscision should be performed just for religious reasons but i have read many compelling reasons why it is medically healthy for a male to be circumscised and very few, if any, medical dangers or  long term disadvantages. Because it worked very well for me, i would have no personal opposition to a son of mine being circumsacised soon after birth.

I dont respond well to emotional, belief -driven arguments either.

Some people will not vaccinate their children. I think they should be prosecuted and any govt benefis removed from them until they do. They kill many young babies because of their mistaken belief driven atitudes to vaccination. (Because children too young to be vaccinated die from diseases passed on by older children whose parents refused to vaccinate them.)

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#124    Karlis

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 07:23 AM

Anti-Circumcision Group Publishes "Anti-Semitic" Comic

The San Francisco group attempting to make infant circumcision a misdemeanor crime  has published a comic strip the ADL and others are calling  anti-Semitic. Titled "Foreskin Man," the comic pits a blond hair, blue  eyed superhero (Foreskin Man) against characters such as  "Dr. Mutilator," "Mohel Man" and a gun-wielding  Orthodox Jewish man named Jorah.  The comic book was created by Matthew Hess, the president of the Male  Genital Mutilation Bill group and one of the leaders of the  "intactivists," the anti-circumcision group whose measure will be on the  November ballot. ...  If passed the ballot would make circumcisions a misdemeanor punishable  by a $1,000 fine and up to one  year in prison in San Francisco.

You can view a list of all the characters on the website  for "Foreskin Man," though be forewarned that the site is very slow to  load. Clicking on an image will bring you to a brief bio for each  character, such as this one for Monster Mohel:
Source


#125    Wickian

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 01:30 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 June 2011 - 05:01 AM, said:

Im not against it.

I take the advice of the australian medical association. A parent should get medical advice and act in the interest of the child. personally i know  circumscision of a young child leaves no trace, mentally. I never even knew i was circumscised until i was over 20. Every young boy /man i saw naked in showers etc looked the same as me, becuase well over 90% of baby boys were circumscised in Australia (for purely medical reasons) in the period when i was born.

I dont think circumscision should be performed just for religious reasons but i have read many compelling reasons why it is medically healthy for a male to be circumscised and very few, if any, medical dangers or  long term disadvantages. Because it worked very well for me, i would have no personal opposition to a son of mine being circumsacised soon after birth.

I dont respond well to emotional, belief -driven arguments either.

Some people will not vaccinate their children. I think they should be prosecuted and any govt benefis removed from them until they do. They kill many young babies because of their mistaken belief driven atitudes to vaccination. (Because children too young to be vaccinated die from diseases passed on by older children whose parents refused to vaccinate them.)
I don't understand how it can be so widely supported in non-religious terms myself. It serves no logical purpose outside of aesthetics and lowers sensitivity.

It makes about as much sense as removing your fingernails and toenails because studies show a complete absence in-grown nails and dirt when they're removed, and it looks aesthetically pleasing too!


#126    The Silver Thong

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 01:46 PM

View PostWickian, on 18 June 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

I don't understand how it can be so widely supported in non-religious terms myself. It serves no logical purpose outside of aesthetics and lowers sensitivity.

It makes about as much sense as removing your fingernails and toenails because studies show a complete absence in-grown nails and dirt when they're removed, and it looks aesthetically pleasing too!


So you did not read the thread, at least by this post that`s what I get. Fingernails and toenails well ok toe nails not sure of but they do serve a purpose. Maybe we have toe nails due to the fact we probaly used them to scratch behind our ears years a long time ago lol. As far as non religious circ`s it is a medical procedure done mostly my doctors. I was snipped and if I`m jewish it`s news to me.  

Lowers sensitivty lol yup, you did not read the thread. It`s subjective.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 18 June 2011 - 01:47 PM.

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#127    ShadowSot

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 02:14 PM

Generally speaking, if your nails are removed as a kid, you won't notice any difference as an adult.

As a medical procedure, nearly every pediatric journal I've looked up recommends against it for purely aesthetic reasons.

Non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors

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#128    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 05:01 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 June 2011 - 05:01 AM, said:

Im not against it.

I take the advice of the australian medical association. A parent should get medical advice and act in the interest of the child. personally i know  circumscision of a young child leaves no trace, mentally. I never even knew i was circumscised until i was over 20. Every young boy /man i saw naked in showers etc looked the same as me, becuase well over 90% of baby boys were circumscised in Australia (for purely medical reasons) in the period when i was born.



Why do you think people complain about them? some going OTT calling them sick?

Quote

  I dont think circumscision should be performed just for religious reasons   

It kicked off long ago..in the Jewish faith.. that's where it became commonly done ...it caught on.. It was mentioned in the bible.. I gather that's where they got the idea from?..Well it seems that way... You only have to read a recent article posted on here about a woman after reading the bible, took a box-cutter / Stanley blade.. to do this to her infant son... She was stupid.. Stanley blades are dead sharp and can easily cut it clean off with the wrong move.....




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#129    H.H. Holmes

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 05:33 PM

View PostKarlis, on 18 June 2011 - 07:23 AM, said:

Anti-Circumcision Group Publishes "Anti-Semitic" Comic

The San Francisco group attempting to make infant circumcision a misdemeanor crime  has published a comic strip the ADL and others are calling  anti-Semitic. Titled "Foreskin Man," the comic pits a blond hair, blue  eyed superhero (Foreskin Man) against characters such as  "Dr. Mutilator," "Mohel Man" and a gun-wielding  Orthodox Jewish man named Jorah.  The comic book was created by Matthew Hess, the president of the Male  Genital Mutilation Bill group and one of the leaders of the  "intactivists," the anti-circumcision group whose measure will be on the  November ballot. ...  If passed the ballot would make circumcisions a misdemeanor punishable  by a $1,000 fine and up to one  year in prison in San Francisco.

You can view a list of all the characters on the website  for "Foreskin Man," though be forewarned that the site is very slow to  load. Clicking on an image will bring you to a brief bio for each  character, such as this one for Monster Mohel:
Source

I just looked at that comic and it is definitely anti-semitic to a huge extent.

Why would this group be spreading an anti-semetic message via this comic book when most circumcisions in the U.S. are done for secular reasons?  

This just shows how desperate some of these anti-circ groups are, they need to villify their opposition to make an emotional appeal to their audience. Truly ignorant people will buy into this, but those who actually know the truth will just be turned off, imo.

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#130    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:02 AM

View PostWickian, on 18 June 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

I don't understand how it can be so widely supported in non-religious terms myself. It serves no logical purpose outside of aesthetics and lowers sensitivity.

It makes about as much sense as removing your fingernails and toenails because studies show a complete absence in-grown nails and dirt when they're removed, and it looks aesthetically pleasing too!
Then you havent read any of the medical literature.

Circumscision in Australia was NEVER a religious practice or issue, yet in the mid 1900s almost every male infant was circumcised on medical advice, just like all children were vaccinated compulsorily at school. Then in the sixties and seventies human liberalism and individual rights began to supercede socal responsibilities and  people began to take a more individaul look at circumcision (and at child vaccinations)

Also medical opinion changed somewhat as social conditions and access to modern amenties  grew
(When i was a child i had one  bath a week  using a wood chip fired heater that roared like a dragon. Because i was the oldest,  I got the fresh water. my 3 siblings went in the same water after me.  Like most homes then, the house had no hot water on tap, and hot water came from a "fountain" (cast iron  black kettle) on the stove. Today kids  can have two showers a day and many do.
Also if you got an infection there were no antibiotics to treat it.  They were just coming in after ww2 and were limited and expensive.

Before the 1940's an infection was not an inconvenience. It could, and likely would, kill you.
Today in australia there are medical opinions for and against, but there is strong evidence for many medical advantages. (It still reduces the rates of infection despite modern hygeine and antibioics making these less serious .) However there is now a strong enmotional /cultural distaste for circumscision .

The latest advice from the AMA is that males should not be "compulsorily" circumscised as a matter of general practice, but that parents should be made aware of the advantages and disadvantages, and then allowed to chose on medical grounds as individuals.

  Thats a far cry from  places where all male circumscision is made illegal.  In effect that is a governmental control over parents right to chose appropriate medical treatment for their children.

And so a man who had considerable problems with infections as an adult and decided to get circumscised as an adult could not chose to have his son circumscised to prevent similar problems.

Quite a lot of Australians still live remote from modern hygeine and medical help. Others cant afford things like the cost of power and water. Circumscision is still a direct benefit to males in those conditions. (The reason why it was introduced as a practice in the first place )
The medical advice i have read (and my personal experience,  even though i have nothing to compare it with, is that circumscision does not noticeably reduce sensitivity )

Even if it did so, for most men, especially young ones, that would be an advantage in their sex life, not a  disasadvantage :devil:

Edited by Mr Walker, 19 June 2011 - 12:07 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#131    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:17 AM

[quote] name='Beckys_Mom' timestamp='1308416462' post='3956051']
Why do you think people complain about them? some going OTT calling them sick?[/quote]

All part of the new liberalism and human rights thrust. People still judge with their hearts instead of their minds . but their hearts have cahnged  direction :innocent:  Same thing with child vacinations. These used to be mandated by the govt and every child received them from birth , through school to adulthood. (for free) Then some people objected and it became voluntary. Now many childen get sick, and some die, because some parents fear or distrust vaccinations (and some even see it as part of government control over them)
[quote]
It kicked off long ago..in the Jewish faith.. that's where it became commonly done ...it caught on.. It was mentioned in the bible.. I gather that's where they got the idea from?..Well it seems that way... You only have to read a recent article posted on here about a woman after reading the bible, took a box-cutter / Stanley blade.. to do this to her infant son... She was stupid.. Stanley blades are dead sharp and can easily cut it clean off with the wrong move.....[/quote]
It kicked off long before then. Australian aboriginal people have probably been practicing circumcision for 20000 years or more. They certainly were when 'discovered' by white people. They devloped it for the same reasons, and under the dsame conditions, as the jews. It  was not a religiois reason but a health one. Later it became a part of religious practice just as many health concerns become ritualised in religious practice.
I suspect it was also used by many nomadic and pastoral peoples, long before and independent of the jews, precisely because it kept males healthier more comfortable and living longer.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#132    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 01:06 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 19 June 2011 - 12:17 AM, said:

All part of the new liberalism and human rights thrust. People still judge with their hearts instead of their minds . but their hearts have cahnged  direction :innocent:  Same thing with child vacinations. These used to be mandated by the govt and every child received them from birth , through school to adulthood. (for free) Then some people objected and it became voluntary. Now many childen get sick, and some die, because some parents fear or distrust vaccinations (and some even see it as part of government control over them)

It kicked off long before then. Australian aboriginal people have probably been practicing circumcision for 20000 years or more. They certainly were when 'discovered' by white people. They devloped it for the same reasons, and under the dsame conditions, as the jews. It  was not a religiois reason but a health one. Later it became a part of religious practice just as many health concerns become ritualised in religious practice.
I suspect it was also used by many nomadic and pastoral peoples, long before and independent of the jews, precisely because it kept males healthier more comfortable and living longer.

Mark this down in BM v's Mr Walker history -- All of that was an interesting read ( for once lol)....  

Thankfully I am not equipped for having the chop  lol



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#133    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 01:37 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 19 June 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

Mark this down in BM v's Mr Walker history -- All of that was an interesting read ( for once lol)....  

Thankfully I am not equipped for having the chop  lol



Yes MW you can go ahead and faint now  lol Posted Image
:rofl:

A lot of cultural practices started from common sense and "natural discovery." Then wise "men" put them into religious laws and practice in an effort to make them part of the culture and keep the society safer and healthier. This was before books or even writing was invented, and all practices were passed on from generation to generation as individual and collective wisdom.
How to keep all males a bit healthier and living longer? Make it a religious practice that they are all circumscised a t birth. How to avoid certain dangerous foods? Make it a religious duty not to eat them.

People follow religious duties even when they dont understand the logic behind them. So they dont have to be educated or knowedgeable in order to practice safe behaviours, if they follow them from religious belief. Its how pretty much all pre "civilised" societies operated.

(Or alternatively people "lost sight of" or forgot the  original logical reasons for them and started to think of them as a "gift from god"  or "the wisdom of god"

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#134    theGhost_and_theDarkness

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 02:04 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 17 June 2011 - 01:37 AM, said:

And how is comparing a vacine or other medication a better comparison to circumcision then child molestation?

Vacines have a medical reason.

There are some vaccines that are given for diseases that a child has less chance of getting than penile cancer (in an uncircumcised male), yet those vaccines are still given. Should they? They hurt and can have complications, so if you are not a hypocrite you should want them banned as well. . .seeing as though they aren't technically medically necessary. . .unless you find that small risk enough to get your child vaccinated. . .in which case, a parent, seeing as though it is a risk upon THEIR child, should not have the right taken away from them as to what future medical risks they don't want their child to be exposed to.

As for some of the other posts on here talking about the "outright lies" concerning benefits of circumcision. . .

Quote

In recent years, health officials have been scrambling to figure out how to circumcise about 50 million men across Africa — where 70 percent of the world's HIV-infected population lives. "Circumcision is unlike a vaccine," said Dr. Renee Ridzon, an AIDS expert at the Gates Foundation. "It has certain challenges."

I highly doubt they'd been spending that much time on trying to figure out how to circumcise the men if it didn't have any benefit. . .

Quote

Kim Dickson, an AIDS expert at the World Health Organization, said mass circumcision could prevent about 4 million adult HIV infections between 2009 and 2025.

Quote

"Circumcision will likely avert far more deaths per dollar spent than other things we're spending HIV money on," said Philip Stevens, of the London-based think tank International Policy Network.

link

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#135    darkmoonlady

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 05:57 PM

There are an ever growing number of men with sexual dysfunction who are saying that they were injured by being circumcised. That alone should give one pause to say why do a procedure that has no medical need on an infant before they can grow up and make the choice themselves. There is no one who is saying they cannot have it once they reach the age of consent, however taking a piece of a childs body with out their consent or ability to understand what they are losing is wrong. I suppose an extreme example, lop off a pinkie toe, they'll grow up not knowing any different, they don't intrisically need it and can live happily with out it. Oh and it's mandated by an ancient tradition to boot so don't question it.

Sorry but that seems easy to say that someone doesn't need a piece of their anatomy that is causing them no harm, but instead is sliced off in the name of religion or some archaic idea of cleanliness.

If you reach the age of adulthood and say okay I don't want this foreskin anymore, by all means have it done. Done to an infant no choice is wrong. Whether a child remembers it or not that is their body.

“The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance …or change... logic can be happily tossed out the window. Religious mania is one of the few infallible ways of responding to the worlds vagaries, because it totally eliminates pure accident. To the true religious maniac, it’s ALL on purpose” – Stephen King, The Stand




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