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S.F Circumcision ban vs. Religious Freedom


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#136    The Silver Thong

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 06:35 PM

View Postdarkmoonlady, on 19 June 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

There are an ever growing number of men with sexual dysfunction who are saying that they were injured by being circumcised. That alone should give one pause to say why do a procedure that has no medical need on an infant before they can grow up and make the choice themselves. There is no one who is saying they cannot have it once they reach the age of consent, however taking a piece of a childs body with out their consent or ability to understand what they are losing is wrong. I suppose an extreme example, lop off a pinkie toe, they'll grow up not knowing any different, they don't intrisically need it and can live happily with out it. Oh and it's mandated by an ancient tradition to boot so don't question it.

Sorry but that seems easy to say that someone doesn't need a piece of their anatomy that is causing them no harm, but instead is sliced off in the name of religion or some archaic idea of cleanliness.

If you reach the age of adulthood and say okay I don't want this foreskin anymore, by all means have it done. Done to an infant no choice is wrong. Whether a child remembers it or not that is their body.


Since when do children have a choice. Does a child have a choice to be born in a country that can not feed it. Does a child have a choice to be born into a country of war. Does a child have a choice not to be indoctrinated into an archaic religion that does not snip the tip.  Could you post a link to your claim that men have sexual dysfunction due to the snip or are you just grasping at straws.

If you bring religion into this argument then you must also be against religion forced on a child as that has life long effects. Mental abuse is far worse then a simple snip at birth that some morons say cause PTSD.

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#137    darkmoonlady

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 01:36 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 19 June 2011 - 06:35 PM, said:

Since when do children have a choice. Does a child have a choice to be born in a country that can not feed it. Does a child have a choice to be born into a country of war. Does a child have a choice not to be indoctrinated into an archaic religion that does not snip the tip.  Could you post a link to your claim that men have sexual dysfunction due to the snip or are you just grasping at straws.

If you bring religion into this argument then you must also be against religion forced on a child as that has life long effects. Mental abuse is far worse then a simple snip at birth that some morons say cause PTSD.
I think that is highly insulting to those who say they have been harmed by circumcision, and I'm not talking PTSD I'm talking about physical discomfort all the way to sexual dysfunction because of it. What I'm saying is that there is no medical reason behind it. Men live their entire lives with their foreskin and are happy with it. Saying that you know your child doesn't need it before they even reach sexual maturity is the same as saying those young girls in Islamic countries do not need a clitoris because their parent said so???

“The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance …or change... logic can be happily tossed out the window. Religious mania is one of the few infallible ways of responding to the worlds vagaries, because it totally eliminates pure accident. To the true religious maniac, it’s ALL on purpose” – Stephen King, The Stand

#138    applegrove

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 02:07 AM

I think at least 80% of the circumcisions in the U.S. are not done for religious purposes. They are done because it is what their Dads have had done before them. And the dr. when I had my son did not give me much if any (I don't remember any) information about it or really ask me much about it. Just gave me the paperwork to sign. I regret letting it happen to my baby boy when he was only a day old. When I had my second son we did not have it done. But then despite my efforts to keep the area cleansed he was reccomended by a urologist to have it done. At least he was three years old, and sedated. But still... I think if more information was available about it being a choice for new parents, and not required it would become less and less popular. I just wish I was more educated then.

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#139    H.H. Holmes

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:54 AM

View Postdarkmoonlady, on 20 June 2011 - 01:36 AM, said:

I think that is highly insulting to those who say they have been harmed by circumcision, and I'm not talking PTSD I'm talking about physical discomfort all the way to sexual dysfunction because of it. What I'm saying is that there is no medical reason behind it. Men live their entire lives with their foreskin and are happy with it. Saying that you know your child doesn't need it before they even reach sexual maturity is the same as saying those young girls in Islamic countries do not need a clitoris because their parent said so???

Complications can happen during any surgical procedure, even removing one's tonsils, although circumcision has a complication rate that is very, very low.

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#140    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:37 AM

View Postdarkmoonlady, on 19 June 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

There are an ever growing number of men with sexual dysfunction who are saying that they were injured by being circumcised. That alone should give one pause to say why do a procedure that has no medical need on an infant before they can grow up and make the choice themselves. There is no one who is saying they cannot have it once they reach the age of consent, however taking a piece of a childs body with out their consent or ability to understand what they are losing is wrong. I suppose an extreme example, lop off a pinkie toe, they'll grow up not knowing any different, they don't intrisically need it and can live happily with out it. Oh and it's mandated by an ancient tradition to boot so don't question it.

Sorry but that seems easy to say that someone doesn't need a piece of their anatomy that is causing them no harm, but instead is sliced off in the name of religion or some archaic idea of cleanliness.

If you reach the age of adulthood and say okay I don't want this foreskin anymore, by all means have it done. Done to an infant no choice is wrong. Whether a child remembers it or not that is their body.
The basic problem with this is that i would happily have a circumcision as a very young child, knowing i will never remember it, and it will protect me from many things through life but i would not have it as an adult because my self awareness and memory is developed to a point where i would never forget it and it jus tmight scar me emotionally.  Its also like vaccinations (if you accept its medical benefits) its best done as young as possible.
Parents have not just a right but a duty and an obligation to do what they honestly believe is best for their child,

The argument again comes back to the medical advantgaes conferred by  circumcision, vs any disadvantages. Id never heard of any sexual disfunction(and EVERY male I grew up with was circumcised in a clinic or hospital by a medical doctor)) but, if true, that would have to be weighed against benefits, as is the case with vaccinations. Very rarely a vaccination can kill a child, but not vaccinating children kills many of them.
The concept of allowing chldren to grow up and make decisions for them selves is a furphy. Societies are structured around the innate nature of adults and children to give parents or other adults authority to act on the behalf of children. Children do not have many personal rights because they lack the data base of knowledge/experience and also of reasoning abilty  to make informed choices..
A society cant wait  for children to grow into adults to begin their health programmes, education, or development of ethics and moralities. These begin at birth and are the resonsibilty of the appropriate adults in a child's life.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

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#141    shadowhive

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:54 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 20 June 2011 - 10:37 AM, said:

The basic problem with this is that i would happily have a circumcision as a very young child, knowing i will never remember it, and it will protect me from many things through life but i would not have it as an adult because my self awareness and memory is developed to a point where i would never forget it and it jus tmight scar me emotionally.  Its also like vaccinations (if you accept its medical benefits) its best done as young as possible.
Parents have not just a right but a duty and an obligation to do what they honestly believe is best for their child,

The argument again comes back to the medical advantgaes conferred by  circumcision, vs any disadvantages. Id never heard of any sexual disfunction(and EVERY male I grew up with was circumcised in a clinic or hospital by a medical doctor)) but, if true, that would have to be weighed against benefits, as is the case with vaccinations. Very rarely a vaccination can kill a child, but not vaccinating children kills many of them.
The concept of allowing chldren to grow up and make decisions for them selves is a furphy. Societies are structured around the innate nature of adults and children to give parents or other adults authority to act on the behalf of children. Children do not have many personal rights because they lack the data base of knowledge/experience and also of reasoning abilty  to make informed choices..
A society cant wait  for children to grow into adults to begin their health programmes, education, or development of ethics and moralities. These begin at birth and are the resonsibilty of the appropriate adults in a child's life.

If you are surrounded by men who have had circumcisions, then you're all the same. You're all going to agree and you're not going to have any real idea what the advantages/disadvantages are from someone that's not been circumcised.

I agree that a child should be vaccinated, since vaccinations have proven benefits but circumcision? Less so.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
We'll just keep on trying till we run out of cake
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#142    Mr Walker

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:15 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 20 June 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

If you are surrounded by men who have had circumcisions, then you're all the same. You're all going to agree and you're not going to have any real idea what the advantages/disadvantages are from someone that's not been circumcised.

I agree that a child should be vaccinated, since vaccinations have proven benefits but circumcision? Less so.
The first comment is true, but i see it as an argument that circumcision does no harm. Sexual disfunction would have been detected (And it was, in many non -circumcision related areas). Basically, apart from other forms it did not exist .Circumcision caused no discernable sexual disfunction in generations of children. Sensitivity is another issue but i dont see persoanlly how increased sensitivity would ever have been of advantage to me. :devil:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#143    H.H. Holmes

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:26 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 21 June 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:

The first comment is true, but i see it as an argument that circumcision does no harm. Sexual disfunction would have been detected (And it was, in many non -circumcision related areas). Basically, apart from other forms it did not exist .Circumcision caused no discernable sexual disfunction in generations of children. Sensitivity is another issue but i dont see persoanlly how increased sensitivity would ever have been of advantage to me. :devil:

Lol, Mr.Walker. Nobody wants to be the "minute man", right?

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#144    shadowhive

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:34 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 21 June 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:

The first comment is true, but i see it as an argument that circumcision does no harm. Sexual disfunction would have been detected (And it was, in many non -circumcision related areas). Basically, apart from other forms it did not exist .Circumcision caused no discernable sexual disfunction in generations of children. Sensitivity is another issue but i dont see persoanlly how increased sensitivity would ever have been of advantage to me. :devil:

Again, how do you know it doesn't cause harm? How do you know you're not missing out on some sensitivity? Fact is you ddon't. You were circumcised when you were a baby (as were many around you) so you have no idea what was lost from you, you all just accept it.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
We'll just keep on trying till we run out of cake
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#145    H.H. Holmes

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:38 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 21 June 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:

Again, how do you know it doesn't cause harm? How do you know you're not missing out on some sensitivity? Fact is you ddon't. You were circumcised when you were a baby (as were many around you) so you have no idea what was lost from you, you all just accept it.

How do you know if we are missing out on much? Can you switch into a circumcised male's body and experience sex, then compare notes? How do you know that there is such a huge difference?

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Admiration for a quality or an art can be so strong that it deters us from striving to possess it.-Friedrich Nietzsche
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.-Mohandas Gandhi

#146    shadowhive

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:51 AM

View PostH.H. Holmes, on 21 June 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

How do you know if we are missing out on much? Can you switch into a circumcised male's body and experience sex, then compare notes? How do you know that there is such a huge difference?

By the same token, how do you there's not a huge difference either?

I don't speak from experience, but there's been numerous studies to suggest sensitivity is lessened to a certain degree. To me that alone is reason not to do it.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
We'll just keep on trying till we run out of cake
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#147    H.H. Holmes

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:55 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 21 June 2011 - 08:51 AM, said:

By the same token, how do you there's not a huge difference either?

I don't speak from experience, but there's been numerous studies to suggest sensitivity is lessened to a certain degree. To me that alone is reason not to do it.

I guess, I don't, but, then again, I have no complaints either.

I have seen studies the suggest the difference is sensitivity negligible. I suppose someone who is more qualified will have to do a meta-analysis and find out if there is a large difference.

Knowledge Speaks, Wisdom Listens- Jimi Hendrix
Admiration for a quality or an art can be so strong that it deters us from striving to possess it.-Friedrich Nietzsche
The day which we fear as our last is but the birthday of eternity.-Lucius Annaeus Seneca
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.-Mohandas Gandhi

#148    Peace Crusader

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 09:54 AM

20110621.1915

The true God asked Abraham in Genesis 17:10-14 to circumcise all man child (all male) in his household, to wit (King James Version):
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Abraham was circumcised when he was ninety years old, and so were the other man child in his household circumcised, as stated in Genesis 17:23-27.

The command came from the true God.  So it must be good.  Please ask the Jews and the Muslims who were circumcised when they were eight days old of their experiences.

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#149    shadowhive

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:05 AM

View PostPeace Crusader, on 21 June 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

20110621.1915

The true God asked Abraham in Genesis 17:10-14 to circumcise all man child (all male) in his household, to wit (King James Version):
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Abraham was circumcised when he was ninety years old, and so were the other man child in his household circumcised, as stated in Genesis 17:23-27.

The command came from the true God.  So it must be good.  Please ask the Jews and the Muslims who were circumcised when they were eight days old of their experiences.

:rolleyes:

Not all 'commands from the true god' are good when given any thought and just because a command is supposed to come from god that doesn't mean it's good.


And also if foreskin bothered god so much than it would be within his power to stop us having any.

Edited by shadowhive, 21 June 2011 - 10:06 AM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
We'll just keep on trying till we run out of cake
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#150    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:53 AM

View PostPeace Crusader, on 21 June 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

20110621.1915

The true God asked Abraham in Genesis 17:10-14 to circumcise all man child (all male) in his household, to wit (King James Version):
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.


The command came from the true God.  So it must be good.  Please ask the Jews and the Muslims who were circumcised when they were eight days old of their experiences.

If god did not feel males needed the foreskin...then he could have left it out when he was creating males  lol Posted Image

And not every command god gave was good

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 21 June 2011 - 10:53 AM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !




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