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G.Cooper encountered man-made flying saucers


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#541    synchronomy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 05 November 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

As for the Gemini 5 meteorites, all I can find about them is that Cooper said one made a dent of .25 inches in the hull.  I can't find anything from Pete Conrad on this subject at all, one way or the other.

http://www.google.co...qVMp9LQRMZj3VTQ
I have been looking into meteoroid and orbital debris strikes on spacecraft and came up with the following NASA page which provides examples of strikes.  The list is not exhaustive but seems to indicate the phenomenon is not rare.

http://ares.jsc.nasa...vit/impacts.cfm

...and some good technical information specific to Gemini 5:

http://nssdc.gsfc.na...do?id=1965-068A

Edited by synchronomy, 05 November 2012 - 11:59 AM.

At the heart of science is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes--an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counterintuitive they may be, and the most ruthless skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new.
This is how deep truths are winnowed from deep nonsense. -- Carl Sagan

#542    booNyzarC

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 05 November 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Yes, I'd better do so -- I looked for the book and will find it, and get the exact words and page citation.

Thanks Jim, I look forward to it.

As for further research into the question of micrometeorite impacts, I took some time to review portions of the mission report this morning.  I found it from the Gemini 5 wiki, external links.  Here is the report itself, about 17 MB in size, 473 pages.

The Postflight Inspection is detailed in section 12.6 which can be found from PDF page 446 to 457.  There is no reference there about holes or even dents as far as I can tell, but there is a mention of looking for them.

Starting on PDF page 452 is section 12.6.2 Continuing Evaluation, which is a list of spacecraft test requests that were approved to evaluate anomalies and problems.  We do have a reference on page 456 which reads:

5066
Structure
Investigate possible micrometeorite impact reported by crew (determined to be "oil-canning" of structure).


So yes, Cooper did report hearing what he believed may have been micrometeorite impacts, but based on the fact that there was no denting or holes found in the re-entry vehicle during the post flight inspection, they concluded that it was likely just the 'popping sound' typical of deformed metal sheets as they buckle back and forth from opposing (edit) or fluctuating (/edit) pressures.  (Oil-canning defined, for any unfamiliar with the term.)

Cheers.

Edit to add:

If I'm not mistaken, there were some pressure fluctuations reported within the cabin which resulted in the need to power down a few times.  I wonder if this may have contributed to or directly caused the oil-canning.


Edit 2:

Although, on PDF page 273 it does say this:

Visual inspection of the spacecraft disclosed no excessive heating effects.  Other observations include the following:

(a) The heat shield appeared very similar to other recovered Gemini spacecraft.  Two relatively deep gouges in the heat shield were noted.  The cause of the gouges has not been determined.


Perhaps Cooper thought this may have been caused by micrometeorites?

Edited by booNyzarC, 05 November 2012 - 02:43 PM.


#543    JimOberg

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:06 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 05 November 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Edit 2:

Although, on PDF page 273 it does say this:


Visual inspection of the spacecraft disclosed no excessive heating effects.  Other observations include the following:

(a) The heat shield appeared very similar to other recovered Gemini spacecraft.  Two relatively deep gouges in the heat shield were noted.  The cause of the gouges has not been determined.


Perhaps Cooper thought this may have been caused by micrometeorites?

Superb work, should stand as a model for others interested in the subject, especially those with screen names beginning with 'Z'.

Note that on Gemini, unlike Mercury, the heat shield was not exposed to space -- it was protected by back-mounted equipment and propulsion modules, until reentry began. So it would be unlikely that anyone would think such gouges could have occurred at any time except reentry.


#544    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

View Postsynchronomy, on 05 November 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

I have been looking into meteoroid and orbital debris strikes on spacecraft and came up with the following NASA page which provides examples of strikes.  The list is not exhaustive but seems to indicate the phenomenon is not rare.



Last night, I started to look through 784 pages of transcripts of the Gemini-5 communications with the ground.  Then I finally stopped myself and said "Wait a minute, wait a minute.  I just don't care about this at all."

http://www.google.co...EGqo4ylbnbXMOjA

http://www.google.co...T1ndfgeaGPbebOg


#545    booNyzarC

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 05 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Superb work, should stand as a model for others interested in the subject, especially those with screen names beginning with 'Z'.

Note that on Gemini, unlike Mercury, the heat shield was not exposed to space -- it was protected by back-mounted equipment and propulsion modules, until reentry began. So it would be unlikely that anyone would think such gouges could have occurred at any time except reentry.

Thanks Jim, I thought that it had been covered but I wasn't sure what was protecting it exactly.

Also of note, it turns out that what I was thinking of as possible pressure fluctuations was probably only in reference to the fuel cells as discussed here.

Quote

Because of the mission's length, the supply of oxygen and hydrogen for the fuel cell was a concern. Cooper intended to operate the cells at the lowest possible pressure. But Conrad suddenly noticed that the pressure had upped too low. Flight Control told him to switch on the oxygen heater to raise the pressure. To his surprise, the needle continued to drop. [257] *snip*

*snip*

The heater had still not raised the pressure in the cells. Gemini V was out of communications range, so Cooper had to make a decision without help from the ground stations, as the pressure had fallen below 138 newtons per square centimeter (200 pounds per square inch). Never having seen a fuel cell working at a pressure that low, he was afraid it might stop entirely, and he reluctantly elected to power down. Without electrical power, rendezvous with the pod was out of the question. Gemini V's crew now wondered if, as Administrator Webb had feared, the mission had "busted."

Would Mission Director Christensen continue the flight or have them come home?74

Flight Director Kraft now had his first major problem at the new Mission Control Center. He knew the spacecraft had enough battery power for reentry even if the fuel cell failed completely, but he needed to know if there would be time enough to reach a good reentry zone, such as the mid-Pacific near Hawaii on the sixth revolution. While Kraft waited for an answer, the fuel cell pressure dropped to 83 newtons (120 pounds). McDonnell set up a test in St. Louis to find out the lowest working pressure for a fuel cell. During the fourth revolution, the oxygen pressure stabilized at 49 newtons (71 pounds). About this time, Kraft was assured that the batteries were good for 13 hours. Mission Control Center learned that the low-pressure tests in St. Louis were going well. With these facts in hand, Kraft decided Cooper and Conrad could fly for at least one day.

Every time I start looking into mission logs and reports like these I always walk away impressed by the level of detail that has been preserved and publicly provided by NASA.  So many great accomplishments on the way to the moon, and on the missions which have followed in the footsteps of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo.


#546    booNyzarC

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 05 November 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Of course you can't, and won't, because

(emphasis mine, Gemini Program Mission Report. Gemini V; page 456)

Always good to check info before posting.

I guess I could have saved myself some reading this morning if I'd bothered to read this post...  LOL

Good find bmk :)


#547    S2F

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 05 November 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Every time I start looking into mission logs and reports like these I always walk away impressed by the level of detail that has been preserved and publicly provided by NASA.  So many great accomplishments on the way to the moon, and on the missions which have followed in the footsteps of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo.

Same here, yet the moon hoax conspiracy still persists. Mind boggling. It takes a special kind of person to dismiss all of that data in favor of an unsupported.... oops, I almost said theory. ^_^

Sorry for off-topic post but...meh.

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

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You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#548    booNyzarC

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 05 November 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Same here, yet the moon hoax conspiracy still persists. Mind boggling. It takes a special kind of person to dismiss all of that data in favor of an unsupported.... oops, I almost said theory. ^_^

Sorry for off-topic post but...meh.

Yeah, that's a mind boggling mystery in and of itself.  Not the suggestion of a hoax, but rather how anyone could possibly believe such nonsense.  These are among the most well documented events in human history.  A special kind of person indeed...


#549    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:52 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 05 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yeah, that's a mind boggling mystery in and of itself.  Not the suggestion of a hoax, but rather how anyone could possibly believe such nonsense.  These are among the most well documented events in human history.  A special kind of person indeed...

You will still find plenty of people on the Internet denying that the Holocaust happened, which is also one of the most documented events in history.


#550    S2F

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:12 PM

There is another group that seems to deny that we have been visited by aliens (I plead the 5th! :P ). It has also been *documented for quite some time.



*I was going to say well documented however that seems to be the crux of the debate. Just how good is the documentation and what does it really signify?

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#551    JimOberg

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:57 PM

Here's the Cooper GT-5 meteoroid hit description:

page 126, 'Leap of Faith'

"Over the next couple of days, we were struck four or five times. When the spacecraft was dismantled upon its return to the Cape -- every returning spacecraft is taken apart piece by piece as part of a total engineering report to assess how it handled the stresses of flight -- impressions were found on the outside wall, as if someone had driven home an ice pick with a hammer. The meteorites had actually reshaped  the outer titanium wall of the spacecraft, pushing in the toughest metal known to man as much as a quarter-inch. .."

Edited by JimOberg, 05 November 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#552    booNyzarC

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 05 November 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Here's the Cooper GT-5 meteoroid hit description:

page 126, 'Leap of Faith'

"Over the next couple of days, we were struck four or five times. When the spacecraft was dismantled upon its return to the Cape -- every returning spacecraft is taken apart piece by piece as part of a total engineering report to assess how it handled the stresses of flight -- impressions were found on the outside wall, as if someone had driven home an ice pick with a hammer. The meteorites had actually reshaped  the outer titanium wall of the spacecraft, pushing in the toughest metal known to man as much as a quarter-inch. .."

Okay, yeah that's the same section quoted in your PDF.  So this suggests dents instead of holes if I'm reading it correctly, but given the information in the mission report we can see that there weren't actually any dents.

It does make me wonder what Cooper might have been thinking of when he wrote that.


#553    DONTEATUS

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:47 PM

I too agree on the well  researched work by most of our members,Boony& Jim to mention  two ! Well done you guys ! As for the Logic in thinking all this CT ect,B.S. Well Its just the way people are. We all Love to embelish a bit here and there right > as for the actual facts and proof Its all in the Puddin !
And we all Know you cant have your puddin ,If you dont eat the meat ! :tu:
The meat being the Facts !

This is a Work in Progress!

#554    booNyzarC

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 05 November 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

You will still find plenty of people on the Internet denying that the Holocaust happened, which is also one of the most documented events in history.

Yeah, it's very surprising to me that people can hold onto such ideas under the circumstances.


#555    bmk1245

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 01:50 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 05 November 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I guess I could have saved myself some reading this morning if I'd bothered to read this post...  LOL
[...]
But you've done better than me, posting more info :tu:

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