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"We are going to get the Falklands back"


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#286    ships-cat

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:13 PM

View Post747400, on 21 March 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Perhaps the people of the Falklands will in the end rise above flag-waving nationalism and set an example of how to live in harmony and co-operation.

Hmmm.. I always thought the Falklanders DID live in harmony and co-operation with Argentina, on the basis of "one nation to another" ?

Oh... sorry... I misunderstood. By "living in harmony and co-operation" you meant "surrender to Argentinian nationalism" ?

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#287    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:39 PM

View Postships-cat, on 21 March 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Hmmm.. I always thought the Falklanders DID live in harmony and co-operation with Argentina, on the basis of "one nation to another" ?

Oh... sorry... I misunderstood. By "living in harmony and co-operation" you meant "surrender to Argentinian nationalism" ?

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Oh, not at all, no. I just dream of a time when the peoples of the world can rise above nationalistic fervour and live hand in hand in harmony. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
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#288    keithisco

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:37 PM

View Postships-cat, on 21 March 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Hmmm.. I always thought the Falklanders DID live in harmony and co-operation with Argentina, on the basis of "one nation to another" ?

Oh... sorry... I misunderstood. By "living in harmony and co-operation" you meant "surrender to Argentinian nationalism" ?

meow purr :(

No.. the mature thing to do is to talk with Argentina (whose claim, primae facae - spelling is rubbish, but you get the drift) is equal (or equally unclear) to the UK's claim. If not then one of these countries would have gone running to the International Courts for clarification.

I think you are confusing modern Argentina with the dictats of the Military Junta of Gen. Galtieri - and not wanting to see the difference. IMO


#289    None of the above

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:29 PM

It's always difficult to soound impartial in an argument like this but Britain has acted entirely fairly concerning the Falklands.
The war of 82 was a tragedy for both nations and Britain should not forget that we won that war by the skin of our teeth.
The decisive factors that gave us that victory were a huge helping of good luck for the British forces, some bad luck for the Argentine forces, the difference between elite Paratroopers, Royal Marine Commandos and Argentine conscripts, and finally some rather important military assets that we simply don't have at the moment.
We simply couldn't project a war at that distance at the moment. Remember in 82 how even with aircraft carriers in the Navy we had to use makeshift 'flat tops' for our harriers?
We don't have carriers or harriers now, and we don't have anything else that can do that job.
We don't have the nimrod early warning aricraft or long range straetgic bombers.

Yes we've got a garrison on the islands, and four Eurofighters that would doubtless account for themselves very well being one of the finest aircraft in the world if not the finest.
But we have ONE helicopter carrier in opperation at a time. So assuming that we had HMS Ocean available we'd have 18 helicopters at our disposal to retake the islands if we lost them, maintain air superiority etc.

What worries me is that this stupid sabre rattling by the Argentine government and the constant attempts at enlisting support for blockades/boycotts etc combined with the whipping up of misplaced nationalistic sentiment will push the Argentines to military agression.
Especially when the recent provocation has been essentially downplayed by the British.
Appeasement is only MORE likely to lead to war in my opinion.

We need to react with like for like. They make threats, we should reinforce the garrison, heavily and publicly. Cancel the sale of the Harriers to the USA and station an entire squadron on the islands with the four Typhoons.
South american countries deny our ships access, we should do the same to any ships from those nations wanting to visit the UK.
Downing street says that any action against British exports to Argentina would be “counterproductive”! HA! they should put it more simply, "ANY action against British exports to Argentina will result in a banning of all Argentinian exports to the UK immediately".


#290    Corp

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:38 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 March 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

No.. the mature thing to do is to talk with Argentina (whose claim, primae facae - spelling is rubbish, but you get the drift) is equal (or equally unclear) to the UK's claim. If not then one of these countries would have gone running to the International Courts for clarification.

I think you are confusing modern Argentina with the dictats of the Military Junta of Gen. Galtieri - and not wanting to see the difference. IMO

The mature thing would be for Argentina to stop trying to force themselves on the Islanders. If they want the islands then they should show they have more to offer than Britain does. Until they convince the Islanders to switch sides they should respect their wishes.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#291    keithisco

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:13 PM

I do not know how many more times that I have to re-state the basic facts in this situation before you all understand them...

1. Argentina are NOT making any threats at all
2. They are REQUESTING tri-partite negotiations (UK, Falklanders, UK Gov) nothing more. It is the UK Gov that is sidelining the Falklanders from these negotiations by insisting that all Soveriegnty negotiations can only be between the Govs of UK and Argentina, and not including the Falklanders'.
3. The Argentine Constitution reflects the peaceful nature of these requests (nothing about Military Conquest)
4. What is there to lose from negotiating in an open and free forum?
5. In 10 years the majority of Falklanders will not even be of UK Descent anyway - so it will become a moot point

Let Cameron start his sabre rattling - it worked for Maggie Thatcher after all, it will deflect from the real problems in the UK, and maybe win another term for the Tory/ Lib Alliance, because the electorate are too stupid to see such actions for what they really are..

I am so happy to see that the Super - Rich in UK are about to become even richer (todays Budget announcements), whilst the Pensioners become poorer




#292    Martyn1967

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:20 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I do not know how many more times that I have to re-state the basic facts in this situation before you all understand them...

1. Argentina are NOT making any threats at all
2. They are REQUESTING tri-partite negotiations (UK, Falklanders, UK Gov) nothing more. It is the UK Gov that is sidelining the Falklanders from these negotiations by insisting that all Soveriegnty negotiations can only be between the Govs of UK and Argentina, and not including the Falklanders'.
3. The Argentine Constitution reflects the peaceful nature of these requests (nothing about Military Conquest)
4. What is there to lose from negotiating in an open and free forum?
5. In 10 years the majority of Falklanders will not even be of UK Descent anyway - so it will become a moot point

Let Cameron start his sabre rattling - it worked for Maggie Thatcher after all, it will deflect from the real problems in the UK, and maybe win another term for the Tory/ Lib Alliance, because the electorate are too stupid to see such actions for what they really are..

I am so happy to see that the Super - Rich in UK are about to become even richer (todays Budget announcements), whilst the Pensioners become poorer

First thing. Why are you happy? Second. When has this not been true all over the world since the year dot?

"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilization." -- Voltaire.

#293    skookum

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:14 PM

Sour grapes nothing more, they want to increase their territory, they have tried by force and failed.  Now it is all for political points, nobody is listening outside the UK and Argentina.  6 months from now nothing will have changed and this will all be forgotten about.

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#294    hetrodoxly

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:15 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I do not know how many more times that I have to re-state the basic facts in this situation before you all understand them...

1. Argentina are NOT making any threats at all
2. They are REQUESTING tri-partite negotiations (UK, Falklanders, UK Gov) nothing more. It is the UK Gov that is sidelining the Falklanders from these negotiations by insisting that all Soveriegnty negotiations can only be between the Govs of UK and Argentina, and not including the Falklanders'.
3. The Argentine Constitution reflects the peaceful nature of these requests (nothing about Military Conquest)
4. What is there to lose from negotiating in an open and free forum?
5. In 10 years the majority of Falklanders will not even be of UK Descent anyway - so it will become a moot point

Let Cameron start his sabre rattling - it worked for Maggie Thatcher after all, it will deflect from the real problems in the UK, and maybe win another term for the Tory/ Lib Alliance, because the electorate are too stupid to see such actions for what they really are..

I am so happy to see that the Super - Rich in UK are about to become even richer (todays Budget announcements), whilst the Pensioners become poorer



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#295    smurf0852

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:08 AM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I do not know how many more times that I have to re-state the basic facts in this situation before you all understand them...

1. Argentina are NOT making any threats at all
2. They are REQUESTING tri-partite negotiations (UK, Falklanders, UK Gov) nothing more. It is the UK Gov that is sidelining the Falklanders from these negotiations by insisting that all Soveriegnty negotiations can only be between the Govs of UK and Argentina, and not including the Falklanders'.
3. The Argentine Constitution reflects the peaceful nature of these requests (nothing about Military Conquest)
4. What is there to lose from negotiating in an open and free forum?
5. In 10 years the majority of Falklanders will not even be of UK Descent anyway - so it will become a moot point

Let Cameron start his sabre rattling - it worked for Maggie Thatcher after all, it will deflect from the real problems in the UK, and maybe win another term for the Tory/ Lib Alliance, because the electorate are too stupid to see such actions for what they really are..

I am so happy to see that the Super - Rich in UK are about to become even richer (todays Budget announcements), whilst the Pensioners become poorer
:tu:


#296    MichaelW

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:31 AM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I do not know how many more times that I have to re-state the basic facts in this situation before you all understand them...

1. Argentina are NOT making any threats at all
2. They are REQUESTING tri-partite negotiations (UK, Falklanders, UK Gov) nothing more. It is the UK Gov that is sidelining the Falklanders from these negotiations by insisting that all Soveriegnty negotiations can only be between the Govs of UK and Argentina, and not including the Falklanders'.
3. The Argentine Constitution reflects the peaceful nature of these requests (nothing about Military Conquest)
4. What is there to lose from negotiating in an open and free forum?
5. In 10 years the majority of Falklanders will not even be of UK Descent anyway - so it will become a moot point

Let Cameron start his sabre rattling - it worked for Maggie Thatcher after all, it will deflect from the real problems in the UK, and maybe win another term for the Tory/ Lib Alliance, because the electorate are too stupid to see such actions for what they really are..

I am so happy to see that the Super - Rich in UK are about to become even richer (todays Budget announcements), whilst the Pensioners become poorer

Basic facts? So, banning British vessels from Argentine ports isn't a threat? Is there anything "diplomatic" about that? No, I didn't think so either. Imagine if Spanish ships were banned from Moroccan ports because the Moroccan government didn't appreciate the Spanish government retaining control over Ceuta and Melilla?

Also, not of UK descent? Have the Falkland Islanders suddenly become Argentine? Honestly, where do you come up with such ridiculous ideas?

And let's remember about the Spanish government reminding the British about the talks surrounding Gibraltar? What about the soaring unemployment in Spain? Dictate to others when your own yard is clean.

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#297    Corp

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 21 March 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I do not know how many more times that I have to re-state the basic facts in this situation before you all understand them...

1. Argentina are NOT making any threats at all
2. They are REQUESTING tri-partite negotiations (UK, Falklanders, UK Gov) nothing more. It is the UK Gov that is sidelining the Falklanders from these negotiations by insisting that all Soveriegnty negotiations can only be between the Govs of UK and Argentina, and not including the Falklanders'.
3. The Argentine Constitution reflects the peaceful nature of these requests (nothing about Military Conquest)
4. What is there to lose from negotiating in an open and free forum?
5. In 10 years the majority of Falklanders will not even be of UK Descent anyway - so it will become a moot point

Let Cameron start his sabre rattling - it worked for Maggie Thatcher after all, it will deflect from the real problems in the UK, and maybe win another term for the Tory/ Lib Alliance, because the electorate are too stupid to see such actions for what they really are..

I am so happy to see that the Super - Rich in UK are about to become even richer (todays Budget announcements), whilst the Pensioners become poorer

And I believe that Britain has also tried to offer and work out several deals with Argentina only to have those offers rejected outright. Argentina is hardly an innocent party.

And are you sure about Argentina wanting the Islanders involved in any talks? Because I recall earlier in this thread that it was the British who wanted them involved and Argentina refusing. After all since the Islanders want to remain British their involvement would hurt Argentina's case.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#298    keithisco

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:57 PM

View PostCorp, on 22 March 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

1.  And I believe that Britain has also tried to offer and work out several deals with Argentina only to have those offers rejected outright. Argentina is hardly an innocent party.

2. And are you sure about Argentina wanting the Islanders involved in any talks? Because I recall earlier in this thread that it was the British who wanted them involved and Argentina refusing. After all since the Islanders want to remain British their involvement would hurt Argentina's case.

1. NO
2. YES


#299    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:44 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 21 March 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

I want your house, before you say no! i have visited Spain more than once.

and did some fishing lol


#300    Corp

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:06 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 22 March 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

1. NO
2. YES

A source to that claim would be nice ;)

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.




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