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Charles Manson, A Patsy?


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#1    Cynical1

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 01:00 AM

Why is Charles Manson, more notorious and known than Charles "Tex" Watson?
Watson was the leader and killer in the all of the murders. The premise that
the killers were made to do this by Manson, is not very convincing to me.


#2    Habitat

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:14 AM

That swastika tattoo on his forehead was always going to be unhelpful. :(


#3    Dsm

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 05:59 PM

If it wasn't for Manson's eccentricity and the fact he murdered a celebrity then no one would have remembered him. He was a master manipulator, and actually still is. I correspond with various inmates over the world but would never write to Manson. He still has 'contacts' on the outside to this day who check on his penpals to see they're actually who they say they are (i.e - it's easier to get a response from a prisoner if you're female, etc). As for why he's the only person who got remembered, I suppose it's like the head of any organisation. You remember Bill Gates, Alan Sugar, etc, but you don't know the names of the guys who physically built their stuff.


#4    rashore

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 06:19 PM

Maybe part of it is that Watson sort of dropped off the radar after his conviction.. Just leading the quiet prison life like most of the other people involved. Ole Charlie is still being all nutters, and so keeps attracting attention.
Also might be that while actually doing killing is creepy.. Being able to convince other folks to do that is extra creepy, and so more interesting.

Your ad hominem connotes your sciolism. Now that is some funny commentary.

#5    farandaway

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:33 AM

Probably because Manson was the cult leader, and a really freaky looking dude.  He was quite the creep show on TV at the time.

You should read the book Helter Skelter by Vincent Bugliosi, he was the prosecutor at the time.  It's a pretty good read.:cry:

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#6    Habitat

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 06:27 AM

I don't expect a " Free Charlie " movement any time soon.


#7    Old Hippie Blogger

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:49 PM

I remember all of this at the time. The killings were incredibly grizzly and terrifying, but the discovery of what motivated them was the scariest part. Manson was not just the leader of a cult who planed these murders. He was actively trying to insight a race war, trying to orchestrate death and destruction on a massive scale.

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#8    Cloudshill

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 10:37 PM

Charlie is getting old now...born in 1934. He's almost finished his life sentence..... :wacko:

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#9    Spark Plug

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 07:38 PM

View PostCynical1, on 20 June 2011 - 01:00 AM, said:

Why is Charles Manson, more notorious and known than Charles "Tex" Watson?
Watson was the leader and killer in the all of the murders. The premise that
the killers were made to do this by Manson, is not very convincing to me.

I dont think he should be in prison at all.

If someone comes and sits infront of me and starts presenting arguments based on philosophy to try and get me to go over the road and shoot someone I dont do it. I know the differance between right and wrong as did those college students he allegedy influenced. College students are of above average intelligence and not 5 year old children who dont know the differance between right and wrong.

I dont think you could even have him for incitement because what sort of law is that? Those college students made their own decisions, are pure evil and using this man as a scapegoat to try and get parole. I think this guy is in prison because the state is afraid of what he represents. They dont like someone who points out what they dont want to hear such as Hitler being correct.

Edited by Spark Plug, 26 June 2011 - 07:39 PM.


#10    susieice

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 08:56 PM

The difference between right and wrong can get very distorted when one is taking LSD every day. Manson used drugs and sex freely to gain control of his "family" though he himself didn't take drugs. "Turn on and drop out". He was smart enough to know better than to do that. Like Old Hippie Blogger, I also remember when this happened. Helter Skelter is a very good book to read if you want to understand how Manson had so much control over his followers. The victims and the sites were chosen solely by Manson. Manson was furious with Terry Melcher for denying him what he saw as his big chance in the music recording business. The family was just ordered to kill everyone who was there and leave signs. Melcher no longer lived at Cielo Dr. and so Sharon Tate and her guests paid the price for his delusions. It was Manson who tied up the LaBiancas the next night and let the killers in before driving off. He was definitely involved in that one and I believe a charge of conspiracy to commit murder was also put against him. Every one who remembers this crime remembers the names of Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten. They will thankfully never see the outside of a prison again no matter how "religious" they are now. Atkins has already served her life sentence.

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#11    Dsm

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:04 PM

View PostSpark Plug, on 26 June 2011 - 07:38 PM, said:

I dont think he should be in prison at all.

If someone comes and sits infront of me and starts presenting arguments based on philosophy to try and get me to go over the road and shoot someone I dont do it. I know the differance between right and wrong as did those college students he allegedy influenced. College students are of above average intelligence and not 5 year old children who dont know the differance between right and wrong.

I dont think you could even have him for incitement because what sort of law is that? Those college students made their own decisions, are pure evil and using this man as a scapegoat to try and get parole. I think this guy is in prison because the state is afraid of what he represents. They dont like someone who points out what they dont want to hear such as Hitler being correct.

In today's world, I think the majority of people would tell Manson to shove his philosophy up his **** if he proposed another killing spree. However in the 1960's, I can only assume that statements such as Manson's aswell as copious amounts of drugs and sex can tempt a person to extreme measures. Also, to me, college students seem like the perfect choice of follower. Intelligent yet still impressionable enough to carry out your bidding.

While Manson himself wouldn't be dangerous to be released into society now, his notoriety has made a lot of people fascinated with him, which could easily lead to killing spree part two. Mind the pun, but Manson still has a cult following.


#12    Spark Plug

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 09:25 PM

View PostDsm, on 26 June 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

In today's world, I think the majority of people would tell Manson to shove his philosophy up his **** if he proposed another killing spree. However in the 1960's, I can only assume that statements such as Manson's aswell as copious amounts of drugs and sex can tempt a person to extreme measures. Also, to me, college students seem like the perfect choice of follower. Intelligent yet still impressionable enough to carry out your bidding.

While Manson himself wouldn't be dangerous to be released into society now, his notoriety has made a lot of people fascinated with him, which could easily lead to killing spree part two. Mind the pun, but Manson still has a cult following.

Drugs, sex and lots of philosophy dont produce murderers.

If the students were influenced by Manson then there is something wrong with them in the head. If I came around your house and tried presenting arguments to you to turn you into a murderer you wouldnt do it. It doesnt matter how much lsd I give you because you know the differance from right and wrong. You can also place yourself into others shoes and feel empathy for them.

At most I think Manson should have been convicted for incitement and aiding because it was pointed out further up he had tied one of the victims up. The students should remain in prison for life because they are either pure evil or so susceptable to other peoples influences they would be a danger to the community if released. I personally think they are pure evil, knew what they were doing and they are now trying to place the blame on Manson to get parole. The lot of them should get the chair.

Edited by Spark Plug, 26 June 2011 - 09:26 PM.


#13    willowdreams

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 10:26 PM

View PostCynical1, on 20 June 2011 - 01:00 AM, said:

Why is Charles Manson, more notorious and known than Charles "Tex" Watson?
Watson was the leader and killer in the all of the murders. The premise that
the killers were made to do this by Manson, is not very convincing to me.

Personally I think it is because he is not so much of A danger.. but if out of jail.. IN danger.

Jail is the Legal Systems expensive way of protecting him.

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#14    susieice

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 11:18 PM

Another good book I have about Manson is called Charles Manson Coming Down Fast written by Simon Wells and published in 2009. As more information comes out it becomes clear that Manson was no one's innocent child when it came to murder. In early July of 1969, he was present in the house of Gary Hinman when the man was murdered allegedly over a drug burn (mescaline) along with family members Bruce Davis, Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner. Only Bobby Beausoliel would stand trial and be convicted for the killing. Manson had shown up with a sword and was responsible for cutting Hinman's ear. Later in July, Manson and a family member named TJ would go after a drug dealer named Lotsapoppa who was reported to be a member of the Black Panthers. Manson would pull the trigger and shoot him dead.
The scenes of the murders were well known to Manson. He had been to Cielo Dr. to see Melcher, who moved out with Candace Bergen in February of 1969. The home was soon rented to the Polanskis. According to the owner of the property, Rudi Altobelli, Manson showed up at the guest house at Cielo Dr. in March of 1969. He described his meeting in a book by John Parker titled Polanski, a biography. He knew who Manson was and asked him what he was doing there and how he found him. Manson told him he was looking for Melcher and the people in the main house had told him where to go. Sharon would later ask Rudi who that "creepy-looking" guy was that came to the door looking for him. Rudi would tell her it was just another freak who was attached to Dennis Wilson. Manson had been friends with Wilson, even staying in his house with other members of the family. Dennis would have the Beach Boys record one of Manson's songs. Never Learn Not To Love would be the flipside of Bluebirds Over The Mountain.(If any of you have access to the old 45 recording) As to the Labianco's Waverly Dr. address, Manson and the girls had been to several parties at the house next door. It was rented by a man named Harold True and some college students. It has been said that Leno LaBianca had gone over to complain about the noise and may have also seen Manson before he would become his victim.
There are many good books out there and as time passes, more people who were involved with the family have spoken out. They don't fear them so much anymore, but there is still a large cult following and some of the old family members still try to keep the faith all these years later. Charlie still has good connections outside of his prison cell.

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#15    susieice

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 11:46 PM

Should have known to check youtube first. Here's the song. It was there. Dennis Wilson took the credit instead of giving it to Manson.



Edited by susieice, 26 June 2011 - 11:50 PM.

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