305 replies to this topic

[momentsinlove]

Mr Walker, on 11 August 2011 - 08:03 AM, said:

Your comment

To me this implies that you felt my form of awakening is inferior, because the body is still there to feel pain.   I am thus likely to assume that you are talking about an awakened /resurrected state, in which there is no pain. Otherwise you will also require control, and will not have freedom from pain.





The problem is not mine. It may be yours, or it may be a natural lack of comprehension by both of us. For example, i still haven't been able to get from you a straight answer as to the nature of your "awakening" after "resurrection: . Tha tmakes it hard to compare my pov with yours. My posts are continuous. I am merely extending them and trying to reply to your own feed back. If you can be bothered to explain precisely how and why you feel i am lacking continuity, i will attempt to rely.




I have no idea what you are talking about. And i am begining to doubt that you have a clear understanding in your own mind. As a mod recently pointed out many posters claim special knowledge but make no attempt to clearly describe it This serves absolutley no useful purpose and simply frustrates genuine seekers for the truth.    As you point out, people are dead or alive  NO ONE has ever recovered from being completely dead (as opposed to mostly dead) Thus no one is around to describe  what it is like to be awakened from death; and so I have difficulty understanding what on earth you are talking about in your concept of awakening, or where you came by your information.

It MUST be a philosophical, theological, or metaphysical construct of an idea or concept, rather than the description or narration of a real event, by one or more human beings.

Then pardon my dullness but what is the form of awakening you are referring to  and /or what human experience IS it connected to?



All you have to do is read the words i wrote, and take note of the punctuation, and you wil notice it was written as an analogy. If you are going to be rude, i will  just say that I did not mention this fact before, out of kindness and consideration for you I didnt want to make you look dumb.
Any reasonable english student would have recognised it for an analogy when they read it.

"Ps "caught with your pants down" only becomes an analogy when it is cross referenced to another  descriptive phrase. Metaphors and similes are thus analogies. Your statement is  almost half of a simile, and thus only half of an analogy. Eg "being caught without toilet paper is like being caught with your pants down" is a simile, and an analogy

[As you point out, people are dead or alive]
Yes, people are either dead or alive (still dreaming). In the case of the Lazarus Syndrome, they were absolutely dead, but came back to life. Lazarus Syndrome is not the same as NDE. NDE is an impeding death; the mind goes into a dream or dream-like state (full of mind), until death really takes over. Lazarus Syndrome is absolutely dead, but a person comes back, resurrected. There is "no mind" in that specific situation.

Right, this thread is not about your ... ummm ... divinity-like nature, but I don't believe you're turning 60. You're probably a spoiled 16 yro. Besides, do you really believe that you're made up of "energy," a measurable phenomenon?

We are looping. Later, kid.

For those who are following this "awakening" thread, I'm baffled why "awakening" has become such a trendy topic because it doesn't really solve anything. You still don't get your own way, completely. "Bad" timing is still unstoppable. The things you cherish will get taken away from you... Most of all, you will know that you are not free, and freedom is not attainable while you are an "awakened" being. So, what's the big deal? Is acceptance or surrender all there is (if you decide to incarnate again and again)? Yes, but I also have a deep belief in prayer. What's there to lose by doing it? If all else fails, I pray like Aretha Franklin.

Edited by momentsinlove, 14 August 2011 - 09:46 AM.

[momentsinlove]

["Ps "caught with your pants down" only becomes an analogy when it is cross referenced to another  descriptive phrase.]
Btw. Your obvious lack of "awakening" experience is similar to getting "caught with your pants down." Do I really have to spell it out for you? I thought you were smarter than that. Then again, I went beyond descriptive. Mine is more poetic..., as in justice.

[Mr Walker]

[quote]name='momentsinlove' timestamp='1313315005' post='4021003']
[As you point out, people are dead or alive]
Yes, people are either dead or alive (still dreaming). In the case of the Lazarus Syndrome, they were absolutely dead, but came back to life. Lazarus Syndrome is not the same as NDE. NDE is an impeding death; the mind goes into a dream or dream-like state (full of mind), until death really takes over. Lazarus Syndrome is absolutely dead, but a person comes back, resurrected. There is "no mind" in that specific situation. [/quote]
I try to respect people's beliefs.

In my opinion (and thats all it is) no one truly dies and comes back to life. All those who apparently died and returned to life can be explained via medical understandings. IMO they were never truly dead. A lack of measured brain process does not necessarily mean death, as long as the brain restarts again with all its memories and faculties pretty well intact.
But i accept your reading is more extensive than mine. I still have'nt found a mental state which is particulalrly associated with the lazarus syndrome.

[quote]
Right, this thread is not about your ... ummm ... divinity-like nature, but I don't believe you're turning 60. You're probably a spoiled 16 yro. Besides, do you really believe that you're made up of "energy," a measurable phenomenon?[/quote] What you believe or disbelieve is irrelevant to the truth.    Of course I am made up of energy, which is quite measurable, along with matter. The matter hosts the energy in various organic forms. Its all pretty simple even the neurology of the brain; its energy, and its organic source of energy.

[quote]We are looping. Later, kid. [/quote]


[quote]For those who are following this "awakening" thread, I'm baffled why "awakening" has become such a trendy topic because it doesn't really solve anything. You still don't get your own way, completely. "Bad" timing is still unstoppable. The things you cherish will get taken away from you... Most of all, you will know that you are not free, and freedom is not attainable while you are an "awakened" being. So, what's the big deal? Is acceptance or surrender all there is (if you decide to incarnate again and again)? Yes, but I also have a deep belief in prayer. What's there to lose by doing it? If all else fails, I pray like Aretha Franklin.[/quote]

Actually, most of the above is incorrect. But until you are awakened or enlightened you cant truly know what it is like. I think it is trendy for many reasons. But trendy is not necessarily good At the start of this thread i questioned whether a person can be truly awakened unless they are transformed completely and thus their lives are very different. A truly awakened person can be the same as they were and they cnt live as they did.

An awakened person would not see things in terms like "getting their own way" but when you live in harmony you are always "getting what you need" which is better tha getting your own way. Nothing one cherishes can ever be lost because it exists in ones mind alone and until death of the mind it cannot be lost.  If you cherish material things then you are not awakened. and fredom is the birthright of every sapient person. It is simply necessary to become aware of this to be completely free.
Awakening is not really about acceptance or surrender, although it can be seen in those terms. It is about transformation, evolution, and integration. I agree with you about prayer, but prayer is so powerful one must use it cautiously. For example I never pray for another person without their explicit permission, because prayer can and does change things physically and i dont have a right to make/cause those changes, arbitrarily.

[Mr Walker]

momentsinlove, on 14 August 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

["Ps "caught with your pants down" only becomes an analogy when it is cross referenced to another  descriptive phrase.]
Btw. Your obvious lack of "awakening" experience is similar to getting "caught with your pants down." Do I really have to spell it out for you? I thought you were smarter than that. Then again, I went beyond descriptive. Mine is more poetic..., as in justice.

Among many things, I am an english teacher, currently doing my best to prepare senior students for university. I am professionally pedantic.
But I must fess up. I was being deliberately pedantic in an attempt at humour. Obviously it was too juvenile for you to get, being so old and wise and all.

[Seeker79]

Mr Walker, on 14 August 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

Among many things, I am an english teacher, currently doing my best to prepare senior students for university. I am professionally pedantic.
But I must fess up. I was being deliberately pedantic in an attempt at humour. Obviously it was too juvenile for you to get, being so old and wise and all.

I think being called a spoiled teenager when you are 60  is actually quite a compliment. It's much better than old fuddy duddy..... Or bitter old man.

[Seeker79]

momentsinlove, on 14 August 2011 - 09:43 AM, said:

[As you point out, people are dead or alive]
Yes, people are either dead or alive (still dreaming). In the case of the Lazarus Syndrome, they were absolutely dead, but came back to life. Lazarus Syndrome is not the same as NDE. NDE is an impeding death; the mind goes into a dream or dream-like state (full of mind), until death really takes over. Lazarus Syndrome is absolutely dead, but a person comes back, resurrected. There is "no mind" in that specific situation.

Right, this thread is not about your ... ummm ... divinity-like nature, but I don't believe you're turning 60. You're probably a spoiled 16 yro. Besides, do you really believe that you're made up of "energy," a measurable phenomenon?

We are looping. Later, kid.

For those who are following this "awakening" thread, I'm baffled why "awakening" has become such a trendy topic because it doesn't really solve anything. You still don't get your own way, completely. "Bad" timing is still unstoppable. The things you cherish will get taken away from you... Most of all, you will know that you are not free, and freedom is not attainable while you are an "awakened" being. So, what's the big deal? Is acceptance or surrender all there is (if you decide to incarnate again and again)? Yes, but I also have a deep belief in prayer. What's there to lose by doing it? If all else fails, I pray like Aretha Franklin.

You are wrong. There is much freedom in the various places along the  "awakening" continuum. And no..... You will never loose that which is dear to you. Infinities, probabilities, and superposition dictate that the universe is frozen in it's various arangments. It's only concousness that moves through it and experiences change. Concousness has the capability to visit and experience all places all times all positions of matter. You will be able to return to any moment of your life that you wish. Indeed your doing it right now.

I have done it!!!!! I just can remember what I knew. I only have the memory of what it was like. Indeed if the duality did not exist then the moment would be meaningless .

Sheesh my head hurts. I'm headed out for dim sum with the fam.

[momentsinlove]

Seeker79, on 14 August 2011 - 06:41 PM, said:

You are wrong. There is much freedom in the various places along the  "awakening" continuum. And no..... You will never loose that which is dear to you. Infinities, probabilities, and superposition dictate that the universe is frozen in it's various arangments. It's only concousness that moves through it and experiences change. Concousness has the capability to visit and experience all places all times all positions of matter. You will be able to return to any moment of your life that you wish. Indeed your doing it right now.

I have done it!!!!! I just can remember what I knew. I only have the memory of what it was like. Indeed if the duality did not exist then the moment would be meaningless .

Sheesh my head hurts. I'm headed out for dim sum with the fam.

You are either free, or you are not. There is no logic in "much" freedom. When did "awakening" become a continuum? Lol.  


[You will never loose that which is dear to you.] Please explain because I wasn't talking about people, but if you think of people as things, there wouldn't be any reason for us to debate about this. I do know that regardless of what you do, your things will get taken away from you sooner or later, even if it is forced out of you.  


[Concousness has the capability to visit and experience all places all times all positions of matter. You will be able to return to any moment of your life that you wish. Indeed your doing it right now.] Perhaps in your dreams, but dreams are subject to suspicion. One doesn't really know if they are real, or not. Perhaps you're talking about hallucinations caused by some x factor?  But hey, keep dreaming. Apparently, your convinced by it. It's amazing what a human mind could muster to amuse itself. It's amazing what "spiritual" books could do to a person.


[Indeed if the duality did not exist then the moment would be meaningless.]  According to you. Explain to us your definition of duality. There is still "moment" beyond duality. There will always be a "moment." It's the nature of eternity.

Have a good day.

[Seeker79]

momentsinlove, on 14 August 2011 - 07:31 PM, said:

You are either free, or you are not. There is no logic in "much" freedom. When did "awakening" become a continuum? Lol.  


[You will never loose that which is dear to you.] Please explain because I wasn't talking about people, but if you think of people as things, there wouldn't be any reason for us to debate about this. I do know that regardless of what you do, your things will get taken away from you sooner or later, even if it is forced out of you.  


[Concousness has the capability to visit and experience all places all times all positions of matter. You will be able to return to any moment of your life that you wish. Indeed your doing it right now.] Perhaps in your dreams, but dreams are subject to suspicion. One doesn't really know if they are real, or not. Perhaps you're talking about hallucinations caused by some x factor?  But hey, keep dreaming. Apparently, your convinced by it. It's amazing what a human mind could muster to amuse itself. It's amazing what "spiritual" books could do to a person.


[Indeed if the duality did not exist then the moment would be meaningless.]  According to you. Explain to us your definition of duality. There is still "moment" beyond duality. There will always be a "moment." It's the nature of eternity.

Have a good day.

Continuum is a spectrum. Various places on a spectrum.

Books? You don't like books? You have some kind of problem with expression? Do you think a book did something to me? That's quite an assumption. Since you are so scientific minded, you should know that those kinds of assumptions are indeed incredibly fallacious. Indeed science seeks to not make such assumptions.

Do you know what dreams are? Do you even know what you are arguing about? Hallucinations? What Hullucinations?

Duality, seperation, positive vs negative, relativity. There is no meaning to anything without contrast.

You might want to read some more of those books.

Or just keep amusing us with your immature antics. The irony of it calling a 60 year old english teacher a spoiled teenager. I'm still chuckling about that one.

Latter kid.

Edited by Seeker79, 15 August 2011 - 01:10 AM.

[momentsinlove]

Seeker79, on 15 August 2011 - 01:08 AM, said:

Continuum is a spectrum. Various places on a spectrum.

Books? You don't like books? You have some kind of problem with expression? Do you think a book did something to me? That's quite an assumption. Since you are so scientific minded, you should know that those kinds of assumptions are indeed incredibly fallacious. Indeed science seeks to not make such assumptions.

Do you know what dreams are? Do you even know what you are arguing about? Hallucinations? What Hullucinations?

Duality, seperation, positive vs negative, relativity. There is no meaning to anything without contrast.

You might want to read some more of those books.

Or just keep amusing us with your immature antics. The irony of it calling a 60 year old english teacher a spoiled teenager. I'm still chuckling about that one.

Latter kid.

You're so helpful. I know what continuum is, don't dumb it down for me. Since you were talking about freedom, continuum doesn't apply. I'm sure you know that there's a big difference between comfort and freedom. Probably not, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned that continuum word. Freedom is beyond the continuum because nobody alive today has ever experienced it. Nobody really knows what it is because no one alive today has ever merged with God. Perhaps, you're an exemption? I think, not.  

You also don't read very well. Did I ever write down that I don't like books? Frankly, I don't really care if books have turned your head upside down because it's only obvious.

Assumption? "Scientific minded," indeed. How did that idea get into your whirling mind? Lol.

You're arguing; I'm debating. Again, do you know the difference between the two? Well, you probably live your life in arguments. Of course I know what I'm debating about. Do you know that this thread is about "awakening"? Btw, your definition of duality is quite limited, but I'm not surprised.

Ah, "immature," you actually resorted to that plebeian level because you have no other way out. Typical. Your epic attempt to troll me has failed. Stick to something you really know about.

Rest in peace, angry child.

Edited by momentsinlove, 15 August 2011 - 04:20 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Seeker79, on 14 August 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

I think being called a spoiled teenager when you are 60  is actually quite a compliment. It's much better than old fuddy duddy..... Or bitter old man.

Thank you. I took it as a compliment, mostly.   It does seem unlikely that my style of writing, and form of literacy,  sounds like a  modern teenagers, although some of my content might   I did play WOW for  four years, and I work every day with 12-18 year olds. Maybe something rubbed off.

[Seeker79]

Mr Walker, on 15 August 2011 - 08:12 AM, said:

Thank you. I took it as a compliment, mostly.   It does seem unlikely that my style of writing, and form of literacy,  sounds like a  modern teenagers, although some of my content might   I did play WOW for  four years, and I work every day with 12-18 year olds. Maybe something rubbed off.

Hahaha I know what you mean. I'm around kids all the time. 80% of my students are 4-13.  It does horrible things to my English.  I spend all day with my 4 & 5 year olds then everyone elses all evening. Kids a practically running out of my ears. You should see the craziness and antics I do all day to keep their attentions. Side effect being Im quite and reserved in my adult life.... An odd sort of balance. My students don't even recognize me out and about because the change is so drastic. I can stand right behind them in a line and they won't even know it.

I have a game I play with my teens. If we run into each other in the community... Who can sneak up on the other without being noticed. I am undefeated. My favorite thing to do is to actually sneak up on them in parking lots and actually get into their cars with them. It's very funny.

[Mr Walker]

Seeker79, on 15 August 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Hahaha I know what you mean. I'm around kids all the time. 80% of my students are 4-13.  It does horrible things to my English.  I spend all day with my 4 & 5 year olds then everyone elses all evening. Kids a practically running out of my ears. You should see the craziness and antics I do all day to keep their attentions. Side effect being Im quite and reserved in my adult life.... An odd sort of balance. My students don't even recognize me out and about because the change is so drastic. I can stand right behind them in a line and they won't even know it.

I have a game I play with my teens. If we run into each other in the community... Who can sneak up on the other without being noticed. I am undefeated. My favorite thing to do is to actually sneak up on them in parking lots and actually get into their cars with them. It's very funny.

Teenage kids here play a game called shadowing. They see how long they can shadow your movements without you detecting them. They can be some distance back, but the real test is to get a couple of feet behind you, and walk with you, undetected, as long as possible.

Ive taken to doing the same to them. They call me the urban ninja, and believe I can walk through the rain, using ninja stealth not to get wet.    I will walk right behind them for a while, then tap them on the shoulder, or quietly say, "Hello..."  Its fun to watch them jump a metre in the air. All the other kids in the school yard roll around laughing. They try and do the same to me, but my ninja skills are too good.   Its amazing that this is another similarity between us.

[Seeker79]

Mr Walker, on 16 August 2011 - 08:07 AM, said:

Teenage kids here play a game called shadowing. They see how long they can shadow your movements without you detecting them. They can be some distance back, but the real test is to get a couple of feet behind you, and walk with you, undetected, as long as possible.

Ive taken to doing the same to them. They call me the urban ninja, and believe I can walk through the rain, using ninja stealth not to get wet.    I will walk right behind them for a while, then tap them on the shoulder, or quietly say, "Hello..."  Its fun to watch them jump a metre in the air. All the other kids in the school yard roll around laughing. They try and do the same to me, but my ninja skills are too good.   Its amazing that this is another similarity between us.

Hahaha yeah. Well I really am a ninja. All these kids I'm their martial arts instructor. I own the school... Hahaha. Pretty much the same game.  

My favorite was when I slipped into one of my macho 17 year old wanna be cage fighter s car while he was in a coffe shop. Just before he started the car I made a terrible noise and grabed his face.... He screamed in this horrified wimper...... It was pretty funny. I Employ him now.  We never react in intense moments like we think we will... All my black belts learn this lesson at some point.

Cool MW. I guess being around kids all the time does something to you. Since this is the awakening thread..... I wonder if being around young people all the time is part of that?

Edited by Seeker79, 16 August 2011 - 02:58 PM.

[ChloeB]

Hey Jugoso, I came across this article today and thought this was really nice, how it broke awakening down into 6 levels, kind of helped me put things in perspective, that I definitely put the cart in front of the mule, me probably trying to sort out those stages 4 and 5 while I still haven't even got stage 2 sorted out, lol.  (I was watching Hoarders this weekend and thinking if only I could get one of those people who come in and helped the hoarder people to come in and help me do that with my thoughts, haha, awfully cluttered up there sometimes).  This just kind of made me think, I tend to be focusing on things too far ahead, so anyway it was a little thought provoking for me, so I thought someone else might get something out of it, so here it is.  It has a perspective on the Adam & Eve fall that I've always shared, some people feel that our awakening would be to return back to the pre-fall state, but I just don't see that.  I'm not sure what the last state is, the question mark he gives, lol, maybe some realization that consciousness is the source of all matter or something, not sure.  

Quote

The realization that awakening is a never-ending process is a core spiritual insight taught by all great religious teachers, and these teachers have left us a map of the stages of awakening. The following is a brief and general outline of some of these stages, utilizing the Hebrew Bible -- the religious text with which I am most familiar -- as well as other religious traditions.

Awakening to Self-Awareness:

Many living things are conscious, but as far as we know human beings are the only creatures that are conscious of being conscious. We can ask the fundamental questions: Why am I here? What does my life mean? The story of Adam and Eve is a mythical telling of this evolutionary moment, when the light ignited in our eyes and we looked at the world from a new viewpoint, knowing that there is difference between good and bad, and aware of our own nakedness -- of our limitations and mortality. Almost all Homo sapiens have reached this basic level of awakening.

Awakening to Meaning

We can stay stuck at the first level, seeking only to satisfy our needs for security in the face of uncertainty and shame. Then, often suddenly, we discover that our life actually has meaning, and we are radically changed. This happened to Abraham, who, in a flash, sees that he has been created for a purpose and must leave the meaningless life that he has led to create a new way of being that is centered on the struggle to honor that purpose. This is the beginning of the spiritual journey.

Awakening to Sacred Service

We can awaken to the knowledge that our own life has purpose, and yet never reach the obvious conclusion: If my life has purpose, so must everyone else's! This is a huge shift, when one first moves beyond self and connects deeply to others. In this connection is found the call to service, as illustrated by Moses, who dedicated his life to liberating others, without seeking reward or recognition. At this level one discovers true humility and gratitude. All those who have changed the world for the better have awakened to this level.

Awakening to Freedom

Two thousand and six hundred years ago, Siddhartha Gautama awoke to an essential truth: that we cause our own suffering through our desire to make permanent that which is inherently transient -- possessions, fame, certainty, power, health -- and that we can end our own suffering by liberating ourselves from this insane cycle. Then we can see that we are not our minds, not our bodies and not our emotions. These, instead, become objects of curious and compassionate examination rather than the unconscious drivers of our lives. With this we can experience life, people and events as they are, free from the need to control. This is the level of awakening that many associate with enlightenment.

Awakening to Spirit

The life and teachings of Jesus are demonstrations of a radically simple but endless truth: We are spirit made flesh. Jesus knew that God is not a being "out there," and we are not feeble creatures "down here." Instead, we are God incarnate; the physical vessels of an infinite, loving creative force. And when we see the face of God in another human being we are seeing our true nature. This may sound appealing, ridiculous, obvious or meaningless. That too is the lesson from Jesus, because this level of awakening moves us beyond the restriction of our physical senses and provokes strong emotions from the ego. But with this awakening comes healing and rebirth to our true selves.

Awakening to...?

The next stage of awakening appears to be emerging now. I certainly can not see it, but my sense is that it will be one in which we know that consciousness is the structure of physicality and that we can deliberately connect to the forces of creation in order to elevate life.

The very reason that we are here is to gradually awaken, and by doing so transform the world into heaven on earth. This transformation is completely in our hands to do, and with courage and humility we will.

http://www.huffingto...g_b_925208.html

[Sherapy]

Mr Walker, on 24 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

I am not sure if this was spoof or real. Im not sure if Carrey is/was sure, himself. Myabe for one transcendantal moment he did experince something but then, perhaps, his "logic" denied it, and it was lost again. Or maybe it is just a joke for him.

He mimics what can be known as achieving cosmic consciousness or awakening/ascension, but  I get the feeling his hearts not really in it. But perhaps that is a limitation of my understanding of jim, or of the way he presents things.

Much of what he talks about is among the first stages of cosmic consciousness/integration, but you could learn about it by reading or listening  to others.

I dont think jim has actually experienced it, because such an experience, and the knowledge(not feelings) it imparts, transforms a person.  I dont see evidence of such a transformation in Jim's life.
Ps one doesnt have to be dying, taking any drugs or alcohol, or religious or "crazy", to achieve this state.

It is a  natural consequence of intelligence and awareness. Some struggle for years to attain it, others have it apparently gifted upon them, although I suspect the gift is only granted to those whose minds can appreciate accept and welcome it, and whose lives and hearts are ready for huge changes and challenges.

MW, Evelyn Underwood is one of the best known voices on mysticism IMO  and she came up with a loose criteria on the 5 things that constitute a  mystical experience ..

It is  a psychological experience  which affects a persons life profoundly and that is marked by a prominence of engaging in entirely 'spiritual' activities for a period (which can be years..)these experiences are marked by a prominince of love ( unconditional , all inclusive) and the absence of any kind of self seeking or religious peddling or preference....

In other words the interpretation or evaluation of these experiences  would  be in accord with the above  guidelines and the interpretations would not  need be theistic.

Mystical experiences are all inclusive, they do not discriminate based on creed, color or religion or giftedness of intelligence, or a certain presentation.   etc.. etc.