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norse giants. Sons of Ymir


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#16    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:33 PM

View Postgranpa, on 30 August 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=here

hi-mir = this world (this place)?

seems like it should be dwelling-place.
I think it seems like it's the actual being, 'that is', which is also the place, the World, Wralda, the World Creator, around us - abode, world, land.

Old Norse[edit] EtymologyAn accusative form of heimr (“abode, world, land”).

[edit] Adverb heim

1.home, homewards
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heim

Quote

True, root “mir” used to designate the existence, the being, then it gradually became “peace”, but the old meaning is kept in the word “svemir” (universe): sve (all)+mir(that is).

That's just my opinion though, on the relationship I know of between the Creator being the actual World itself.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 August 2011 - 12:35 PM.

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#17    Abramelin

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:00 PM

Someone said we should invite someone who speaks Old Norse.

Well, I am not the one, but I have access to an Old Norse dictionary (in German):

i-mir  rim-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Erdrücken = to crush, to overwhelm

i-mÆrh  hrÆm-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Rauhreif = hoarfrost


http://www.koeblerge...uecklaeufig.pdf

You are all thinking about the MIR part of the frost-giants' names, but maybe you should look into IMIR, not MIR.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 31 August 2011 - 04:10 PM.


#18    Oniomancer

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:16 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 31 August 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

Someone said we should invite someone who speaks Old Norse.

Well, I am not the one, but I have access to an Old Norse dictionary (in German):

i-mir  rim-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Erdrcken = to crush, to overwhelm

i-mrh  hrm-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Rauhreif = hoarfrost


http://www.koeblerge...uecklaeufig.pdf

You are all thinking about the MIR part of the frost-giants' names, but maybe you should look into IMIR, not MIR.

.
So this is all just a mir misunderstanding.

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#19    The Puzzler

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 02:52 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 31 August 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

Someone said we should invite someone who speaks Old Norse.

Well, I am not the one, but I have access to an Old Norse dictionary (in German):

i-mir  rim-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Erdrcken = to crush, to overwhelm

i-mrh  hrm-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Rauhreif = hoarfrost


http://www.koeblerge...uecklaeufig.pdf

You are all thinking about the MIR part of the frost-giants' names, but maybe you should look into IMIR, not MIR.

.
Analysis of different Indo-European tales indicate the Proto-Indo-Europeans believed there were two progenitors of mankind: *Manu- ("Man"; Indic Manu; Germanic Mannus) and *Yemo- ("Twin"), his twin brother. The latter, like Ymir, was sacrificed and carved up by his brother to produce mankind.[1]

Traces of this dualistic structure of (also) the Proto-Indo-European creation myth can be found in parallel mythological entities with the same etymology, like the Indic death deity Yama and Avestan Yima, progenitors of mankind; of Remus (according to Jaan Puhvel), the brother of Romulus in the story of the founding of Rome, and Ymir. The underlying Proto-Indo-European form is *yemo ("twin"). The corresponding Proto-Germanic form was either *umijaz or, in better accordance with this theory, *jumijaz (W. Meid).

Yama shares with Ymir the characteristics of being primordial and mortal, but otherwise developed towards a very different character, the first of mortal men and kings who after death becomes ruler of the realm of the dead.

Here it is also worth noting that amongst the actual speakers of Old Icelandic, as opposed to reconstructed ProtoIndo-European,the name Ymir meant, not "twin", but "noisemaker,roarer, bellower".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir

I think the twin thing sounds pretty logical myself, even though I'm a bit adverse to PIE words, ying/yang - Apollo/Artemis, all twins everywhere when describing everything, duality.


It also seems to me these stories actually come from a LONG time ago, maybe the end of the ice age down to 6 or 7000BC, when the landforms of the area would have 'defrosted' somewhat and new land would have been created. Eitr is obviously Greek 'ether', the airy substance.


According to these poems, in the beginning there was nothing except for the ice of Niflheim, to the north, and the fire of Muspelheim, to the south. Between them was a yawning gap called Ginnungagap and there a few pieces of ice melted by a few sparks of fire created a moisture called eitr, the liquid substance of life. Ymir was the first to be conceived as drops of eitr joined together and formed a giant of rime frost (a hrimthurs) and sparks from Muspelheim brought him to life. While Ymir slept, the sweat under his arms became two more giants, one male and one female, and one of his legs mated with the other to create a third, a son rgelmir. These were the forebearers of the family of frost giants or jutuns. They were nursed by the cow giant Auumbla who, like Ymir, was created from the melting ice in Ginnungagap. Auumbla herself fed on a block of salty ice, and her licking sculpted it into the shape of a man who became Bri, the ancestor of the gods (sir) and the grandfather of Odin.[2][3]

Buri fathered Borr, and Borr fathered three sons, the gods Vili, V, and Odin. These brothers killed the giant Ymir, and unleashed a vast flood from Ymir's blood killing all the frost giants but the son of rgelmir, Bergelmir, and Bergelmir's wife who all took safety in a hollow tree. Odin and his brothers used Ymir's lifeless body to create the universe. They carried it to the center of Ginnungagap and there they ground his flesh into dirt. The maggots that appeared in his flesh became the dwarves that live under the earth. His bones became the mountains, his teeth rocks and pebbles. Odin strewed Ymir's brains into the sky to create the clouds, and took sparks and embers from Muspelheim for the sun, moon and stars. The gods placed four dwarvesNorri (North), Suri (South), Austri (East), and Vestri (West)to hold up Ymir's skull and create the heavens.


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#20    Abramelin

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 11:38 AM

Yes, that's what Wiki says about the meaning of the name Ymir.

But I am talking about the syllable MIR at the end of the other names. And I think we should look to IMIR/IMAERH as origin of that syllable.

("to crush, to overwhelm / hoarfrost".. makes you think of giants and frost, right?
Frost giants?)

No doubt it got shortened to MIR.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 September 2011 - 11:44 AM.


#21    Skeptic Chicken

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:52 AM

I thought Mimir was a god...

My User Name is a loving memory of how much I want to know about the worlds secrets, that I forgot to look up the definition of "skeptical" before I made my account.

#22    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 12:20 PM

View PostSkeptic Chicken, on 02 September 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

I thought Mimir was a god...

Mimir or Mímr ("day-dreamer" or "ponderer" in Old Norse, also abbreviated to 'Mim') is in Norse mythology the name of a giant or Jotun, the custodian of the well of wisdom in Jotunheim. Although he is not a deity and stays as a guest in Vanaheim, he is sometimes considered to be one of the Aesir to whom he is closely connected. From Odin he demanded to sacrifice his eye in return for drinking from the well of wisdom, and from Heimdal he demanded an ear. In this way Mimir acquired 'clear seeing' and 'clear hearing'.

Dependent on the sources Mimir is classed amongst the Aesir and the Jötun-giants, or even amongst the Dwarves. As a person he rarely shows up in the Edda songs, but he does in references to his well and his head.

(Btw: I translated this from the Dutch Wiki on Mimir; the English Wiki wasn't very clear about whether Mimir is a god/deity or not.
Dutch Wiki )

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 12:29 PM.


#23    third_eye

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 01:53 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 12:20 PM, said:

Mimir or Mmr ("day-dreamer" or "ponderer" in Old Norse, also abbreviated to 'Mim') is in Norse mythology the name of a giant or Jotun, the custodian of the well of wisdom in Jotunheim. Although he is not a deity and stays as a guest in Vanaheim, he is sometimes considered to be one of the Aesir to whom he is closely connected. From Odin he demanded to sacrifice his eye in return for drinking from the well of wisdom, and from Heimdal he demanded an ear. In this way Mimir acquired 'clear seeing' and 'clear hearing'.

Dependent on the sources Mimir is classed amongst the Aesir and the Jtun-giants, or even amongst the Dwarves. As a person he rarely shows up in the Edda songs, but he does in references to his well and his head.

(Btw: I translated this from the Dutch Wiki on Mimir; the English Wiki wasn't very clear about whether Mimir is a god/deity or not.
Dutch Wiki )

.


thanks Abe ... Mimir is very under rated ... of all the stuff i read none really gave Mimir much of a mention, so much so i had to google to remind myself where. Such a shame, i like Mimir ... i would lean towards him being a Dwarf, a court jester companion of sorts to Odin. Being non deity and not a giant would justify his presence in the books dedicated only the main core myths. Surely the researchers wouldn't miss an anecdote like that.

i'll even gladly offer any of the deities my vocal chords myself if it will also allows me 'all speaking' along with seeing and hearing'
with a mouse and a keyboard ... i'm practically a god myself :lol:
some might even say better since some thinks there are gods that don't hear so well

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#24    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 02:28 PM

It never ends...

Tuisto, Tvastar & Ymir

Connections have been proposed between the 1st century figure of Tuisto and the hermaphroditic primeval being Ymir in later Norse mythology, attested in 13th century sources, based upon etymological and functional similarity.[11] Meyer (1907) sees the connection as so strong, that he considers the two to be identical.[12] Lindow (2001), while mindful of the possible semantic connection between Tuisto and Ymir, notes an essential functional difference: while Ymir is portrayed as an "essentially negative figure" - Tuisto is described as being "celebrated" (celebrant) by the early Germanic peoples in song, with Tacitus reporting nothing negative about Tuisto.[13]

Jacob (2005) attempts to establish a genealogical relationship between Tuisto and Ymir based on etymology and a comparison with (post-)Vedic Indian mythology: as Tvastr, through his daughter Saranyū and her husband Vivaswān, is said to have been the grandfather of the twins Yama and Yami, so Jacob argues that the Germanic Tuisto (assuming a connection with Tvastr) must originally have been the grandfather of Ymir (cognate to Yama). Incidentally, Indian mythology also places Manu (cognate to Germanic Mannus), the Vedic progenitor of mankind, as a son of Vivaswān, thus making him the brother of Yama/Ymir


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuisto

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#25    granpa

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:36 PM

I've been recently considering a connection between Hymir and Mithra. (Mihr)

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Mithra

Mithra (Miθra), (Persian, مِهر، میترا or میثره) is the Avestan language name of the Zoroastrian divinity (yazata) of covenant and oath.

In addition to being the divinity of contracts, Mithra is also a judicial figure, an all-seeing protector of Truth, and the guardian of cattle, the harvest and of The Waters. In Middle Iranian languages (Middle Persian, Parthian etc.), 'Mithra' became 'Mehr', 'Myhr' etc., from which New Persian and Armenian Mihr ultimately derive.


With the Vedic common noun mitra, the Avestan common noun miθra derives from proto-Indo-Iranian *mitra, from the root mi- "to bind", with the "tool suffix" -tra- "causing to." Thus, etymologically mitra/miθra means "that which causes binding", preserved in the Avestan word for "covenant, contract, oath".

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#26    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:48 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 02 September 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:

thanks Abe ... Mimir is very under rated ... of all the stuff i read none really gave Mimir much of a mention, so much so i had to google to remind myself where. Such a shame, i like Mimir ... i would lean towards him being a Dwarf, a court jester companion of sorts to Odin. Being non deity and not a giant would justify his presence in the books dedicated only the main core myths. Surely the researchers wouldn't miss an anecdote like that.

i'll even gladly offer any of the deities my vocal chords myself if it will also allows me 'all speaking' along with seeing and hearing'
with a mouse and a keyboard ... i'm practically a god myself :lol:
some might even say better since some thinks there are gods that don't hear so well

LOL.

Well, I'm not a specialist in Nordic mythology, but this one I knew a bit of.

We Dutch still have a verb that has the same meaning as Mimir, and it is "mijmeren" (to ponder, or better, to let your thoughts float here and there).

And then we have the ravens, Huginn and Muninn on the shoulders of Odin. They stand for "thought and memory" (that one I know by heart, lol).

Hmm... I think I'm rambling now...

********

Two ravens rested on the shoulders of the Norse god Odin: Huginn and Muninn, Thought and Memory. The ravens circled the sky, often during battle, and returned in the evening to Odin. It was considered apocalyptic if only one of the ravens should return, the consequences being a society governed by memory without thought, or thought without memory. The story was meant to represent the concepts of a world defined by the figurative absence of the living, with the past eternally unchanged, or the rule of the present without understanding of what has come before. As for ravens, with only one, there may as well be none.

From my blog:
http://kromakhy.blog...and-muninn.html


.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 07:33 PM.


#27    granpa

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:53 PM

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Mithra

Persian and Parthian-speaking Manichaeans used the name of Mithra current in their time (Mihryazd, q.e. Mithra-yazata) for two different Manichaean angels.

    The first, called Mihryazd by the Persians, was the "The Living Spirit" (Aramaic rūḥā ḥayyā), a savior-figure who rescues the "First Man" from the demonic Darkness into which he had plunged.
    The second, known as Mihr or Mihr yazd among the Parthians, is "The Messenger" (Aramaic īzgaddā), likewise a savior figure, but one concerned with setting up the structures to liberate the Light lost when the First Man had been defeated.

German academic Werner Sundermann has asserted that the Manicheans adopted the name Mithra to designate one of their own deities. Sundermann determined that the Zoroastrian Mithra, which in Middle Persian is Mihr (in Russian "Mir" = world), is not a variant of the Parthian and Sogdian Mytr or Mytrg; though sharing linguistic roots with the name Mithra, those names denote Maitreya.

In Parthian and Sogdian however Mihr was taken as the sun and consequently identified as the Third Messenger. This Third Messenger was the helper and redeemer of mankind, and identified with another Zoroastrian divinity Narisaf.[7] Citing Boyce,[8] Sundermann remarks, "It was among the Parthian Manicheans that Mithra as a sun god surpassed the importance of Narisaf as the common Iranian image of the Third Messenger; among the Parthians the dominance of Mithra was such that his identification with the Third Messenger led to cultic emphasis on the Mithraic traits in the Manichaean god."[9]

Edited by granpa, 02 September 2011 - 06:54 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#28    Abramelin

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 06:59 PM

What wonders me is that people try to explain the Norse language by bringing up words and gods from a culture 2300 miles away.

Give me some time, and I will bring up a link to the Inuit language.

At least it's closer to 'home'.


+++++++

EDIT:

There you go:

http://conlangdictio...a.com/wiki/Imir

'imir' is an Inuit word related to 'water'.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 07:29 PM.


#29    third_eye

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 09:04 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 06:48 PM, said:

LOL.

Well, I'm not a specialist in Nordic mythology, but this one I knew a bit of.

We Dutch still have a verb that has the same meaning as Mimir, and it is "mijmeren" (to ponder, or better, to let your thoughts float here and there).

And then we have the ravens, Huginn and Muninn on the shoulders of Odin. They stand for "thought and memory" (that one I know by heart, lol).

Hmm... I think I'm rambling now...

********

Two ravens rested on the shoulders of the Norse god Odin: Huginn and Muninn, Thought and Memory. The ravens circled the sky, often during battle, and returned in the evening to Odin. It was considered apocalyptic if only one of the ravens should return, the consequences being a society governed by memory without thought, or thought without memory. The story was meant to represent the concepts of a world defined by the figurative absence of the living, with the past eternally unchanged, or the rule of the present without understanding of what has come before. As for ravens, with only one, there may as well be none.

From my blog:
http://kromakhy.blog...and-muninn.html


.

:tu:
I know those ravens, now i know more with better clarity

Really Abe, you should have a thread for those gems

He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
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#30    Abramelin

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 10:24 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 02 September 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

:tu:
I know those ravens, now i know more with better clarity

Really Abe, you should have a thread for those gems

I have a blog about crows and ravens.

And the quote I posted wasn't mine.

But I know you will have some trouble finding it's source on the internet.

It's gone.

And I never delete anything I ever found.

I am "Conan the Librarian"





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