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Could NASA Launch a Secret Moon Mission?


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#16    ShadowSot

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:37 PM

View PostStellar, on 07 September 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

And just what exactly is stopping them from launching from a secluded location and claiming it to be a satellite launch?
Payload for one, the size of the launcher for a moon mission for a satellite are different. Plus, even satellite launches draw a crowd.
Following that, if they managed to avoid a crowd, then the Russians and others would be tracking where it went.
Finally, much like on the original moon missions, radio operators would have noticed chatter going back an forth between the moon mission and Earth.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#17    switchopens

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:55 PM

Why did the article disappear?


#18    eqgumby

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:55 PM

I think this is a film and requires a suspension of disbelief as most fiction does.

I suppose anything is possible, but really, the level of cover-up for something as massive as a moon-shot is just so unlikely.

Has anyone seen the movie? If I see it, will I want to beat the film-makers like I wanted to beat the people who made the Blair Witch Project? I don't hate ALL of that type of movie by the way...just the ones that use it gratuitously...

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#19    randym23

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 04:22 PM

I think it depends upon where the launch was from. People may have detected the blasts but were told it was something else. That's how the Manhattan Project stayed secret. Someone should do some general research on all reported blasts in the area the launch could have happened.

I personally consider it fiction.

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#20    thewonderman

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 04:56 PM

what if the launch was in Russia and they was working together with the US, im sure they could get one up there if they want. esepcially if it was seceret.

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#21    ShadowSot

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:10 PM

View Postthewonderman, on 07 September 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

what if the launch was in Russia and they was working together with the US, im sure they could get one up there if they want. esepcially if it was seceret.

With Russia? During the Cold War?

Yeah, it's possible..
It's also possible that Kim Jong Il and President Lee Myung-bak meet regularly for golf and snacks.

Just rather unlikely.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#22    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:42 PM

"The "Apollo 18" trailer includes a snippet in which the astronauts are communicating with the Department of Defense (DoD), suggesting that it is involved in the secret mission."

well, of course, a lot of Shuttle missions were carried out on behalf of the DoD, launching Satellites and so forth. You couldn't launch a Shuttle very discreetly, though, so they could hardly keep the missions secret.

View PostShadowSot, on 07 September 2011 - 05:10 PM, said:

With Russia? During the Cold War?

Yeah, it's possible..
It's also possible that Kim Jong Il and President Lee Myung-bak meet regularly for golf and snacks.

Just rather unlikely.
They did, only it wasn't secret: http://en.wikipedia....uz_Test_Project

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#23    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:46 PM

Not wanting to be mischievous at all, though, but the AF do of course have their own private space launch facility ... http://en.wikipedia...._Air_Force_Base

Though I expect a Saturn V launch from their would not escape being noticed by somebody ....

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#24    The Silver Thong

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 05:55 PM

Would it take a Saturn V rocket to get men back on the moon with todays technology?  If it could be done with a smaller rocket or even using a Saturn V rocket it could be hiden by doing it in plane sight. Just tell everybody that NASA is now starting to send equipment to the moon for a future moon base. Hence the need for such a big rocket.

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#25    Czero 101

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 06:01 PM

View Post747400, on 07 September 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

Though I expect a Saturn V launch from their would not escape being noticed by somebody ....

Considering that they'd be launching eastward over the continental US, I have no doubt that you are correct.

Then there's the small problem of hiding the expended S-IC first stage after it separates and crashes to the ground.



Cz

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#26    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 06:02 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 07 September 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Would it take a Saturn V rocket to get men back on the moon with todays technology?  If it could be done with a smaller rocket or even using a Saturn V rocket it could be hiden by doing it in plane sight. Just tell everybody that NASA is now starting to send equipment to the moon for a future moon base. Hence the need for such a big rocket.
If they were going direct they'd have needed an S-V, unless we want to construct some theory involving Skylab (or perhaps, depending on what date we suppose this to have happened, MIR) as a launching pad, which I don't know if it would have been technically feasible, and the problem with that would be that space stations are always visible from Earth, so i doubt if any clandestine activities would remain secret for long.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#27    ShadowSot

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 06:06 PM

View Post747400, on 07 September 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:




They did, only it wasn't secret: http://en.wikipedia....uz_Test_Project
Oh well, yummy words. I'll have my words medium with a side of of bread please.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#28    Stellar

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 06:14 PM

Quote

Payload for one, the size of the launcher for a moon mission for a satellite are different.

We've progressed in technology since the 60s. You think we'd need something as big as the Saturn V to get to the moon? Why? I'd be willing to bet that the biggest current rockets are wide enough to house all of the lunar modules and orbiters as they were designed back in the 60s. The rest of the payload? Well, as we use new and lighter rocket fuels, the payloads do not need to be as great.

Quote

Plus, even satellite launches draw a crowd.

So? A crowd has no idea what really is in the rocket. Furthermore, if the location is secluded enough, there might not even be a crowd.

Quote

Following that, if they managed to avoid a crowd, then the Russians and others would be tracking where it went.

Up to a point. Do you think our radar can track something that small all the way to the moon? I doubt it. Furthermore, even if it did and it saw it in orbit of the moon, theres no way at our current technology that we'd be able to detect any part of it landing on the moon. Plus, we've had all sorts of satellites orbit the moon, and even crash objects into the moon. How would any country be able to determine whether that satellite orbiting the moon was not a lunar module?

Quote

Finally, much like on the original moon missions, radio operators would have noticed chatter going back an forth between the moon mission and Earth.

Yeah, right. Not if its properly encrypted.



I rather dislike when people use excuses like the above to "disprove" something. It really doesnt disprove anything. You don't want to believe that it's possible, so you conjure up the idea that this and that wouldnt work, and that the "conspiracy" would be too massive to cover up and so on. Do I believe secret moon missions are happening? No. But I can see possible ways for them to accomplish this so I'm not going to sit here telling people that its impossible when really, I have no way to prove that it's impossible.

Remember, thousands upon thousands of people worked on the nuclear bomb... hell, an entire city was constructed to work specifically on the bomb. The explosion was heard by civilians miles and miles away... yet the project remained a secret.

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#29    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 06:21 PM

View PostStellar, on 07 September 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

We've progressed in technology since the 60s. You think we'd need something as big as the Saturn V to get to the moon? Why? I'd be willing to bet that the biggest current rockets are wide enough to house all of the lunar modules and orbiters as they were designed back in the 60s. The rest of the payload? Well, as we use new and lighter rocket fuels, the payloads do not need to be as great.
It's not to do with width, it's to do with thrust. Do we use new & lighter rocket fuels?




Quote

Up to a point. Do you think our radar can track something that small all the way to the moon? I doubt it. Furthermore, even if it did and it saw it in orbit of the moon, theres no way at our current technology that we'd be able to detect any part of it landing on the moon. Plus, we've had all sorts of satellites orbit the moon, and even crash objects into the moon. How would any country be able to determine whether that satellite orbiting the moon was not a lunar module?
I'm pretty sure that even in the 70s, they could. Not to mention all the amateur astronomers who'd surely notice something suspicious going on.

Edited by 747400, 07 September 2011 - 06:22 PM.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#30    Czero 101

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 06:30 PM

View PostStellar, on 07 September 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

We've progressed in technology since the 60s. You think we'd need something as big as the Saturn V to get to the moon? Why? I'd be willing to bet that the biggest current rockets are wide enough to house all of the lunar modules and orbiters as they were designed back in the 60s. The rest of the payload? Well, as we use new and lighter rocket fuels, the payloads do not need to be as great.

The Ares V was designed to be the "replacement", so to speak, for the Saturn V using "today's technology". It was almost as tall as the Saturn V and could only carry about 2/3 the payload, give or take, of the Saturn V.

Its not the technology that determines the size of a launcher, its the weight of the payload and its destination.

Quote

So? A crowd has no idea what really is in the rocket. Furthermore, if the location is secluded enough, there might not even be a crowd.

If there are crowds, someone's going to ask what's being launched. Not a "show-stopper", but rather annoying if ou're trying to hide what you're launching.

Quote

Up to a point. Do you think our radar can track something that small all the way to the moon? I doubt it.
Currently it is possible to track debris as small as a few inches in orbit. And besides, why would radar be the only way to track it when there are plenty of third-party sources that tracked Apollo using optical telescopes...?

Quote

Furthermore, even if it did and it saw it in orbit of the moon, theres no way at our current technology that we'd be able to detect any part of it landing on the moon. Plus, we've had all sorts of satellites orbit the moon, and even crash objects into the moon. How would any country be able to determine whether that satellite orbiting the moon was not a lunar module?
The radio signals from an object in orbit of the Moon would exhibit doppler shifting as it moved around the Moon. If an object landed, that shifting would stop. That would be pretty good evidence that something landed, however, not necessarily evidence of what it was.

Quote

I rather dislike when people use excuses like the above to "disprove" something. It really doesnt disprove anything. You don't want to believe that it's possible, so you conjure up the idea that this and that wouldnt work, and that the "conspiracy" would be too massive to cover up and so on. Do I believe secret moon missions are happening? No. But I can see possible ways for them to accomplish this so I'm not going to sit here telling people that its impossible when really, I have no way to prove that it's impossible.

Well, its a free board and if you post something that someone doesn't agree with, you should be prepared to have your opinions countered, or to at least have the flaws pointed out.

Quote

Remember, thousands upon thousands of people worked on the nuclear bomb... hell, an entire city was constructed to work specifically on the bomb. The explosion was heard by civilians miles and miles away... yet the project remained a secret.

And yet, as secret as the Manhattan Project was, it was still subject to espionage by the Soviets.




Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 07 September 2011 - 06:34 PM.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan

"For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false." – H. L. Mencken




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