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911: Professional experts says it was staged


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#496    Q24

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:34 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 14 October 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

You wouldn't be offended by these things at all?
A few of the suggestions you made are so apparently ludicrous as to not be worthy of offence - “whisked off to another country with millions of dollars” for example.  Yes I understand how that particular idea could be perceived as offensive (though to be fair I’ve not heard anyone seriously make the claim).  Personally I wouldn’t have the time of day for anyone claiming that, let alone waste my energy in being offended.  It would be more a case of [door… slam… end of].

So far as I would be concerned, my loved one had been taken from me and they deserve every fact surrounding the circumstances to be known.  Anything less than that, such as the whitewash of an investigation that currently exists, is the most disrespectful and offensive act against their memory I could ever imagine.

Many of the family members of 9/11 victims feel the same…

Do you realise the Bush administration were opposed to an investigation altogether and that the 9/11 Commission was only formed under pressure from family members of victims?  Are you aware that four leading women of that group, known as the Jersey Girls, forced the original Commission Chairman, Henry Kissinger, to resign after their independent research unveiled his links to the bin Ladens and Saudi dealings?

Lorie Van Auken, who lost her husband on 9/11: -

We were shocked.  Kissinger had huge conflicts of interest -- major dealings with the Saudis... The day before he resigned, we had a meeting with him in his office in Manhattan.  Kristen [Breitweiser] had done impeccable research.  She'd looked up all of his companies.  So I asked him, 'Mr. Kissinger, do you have any Saudi clients?'  He mumbled something.  And then he asked if someone would pour him some coffee.  So then I said, 'Do you happen to have any clients by the name of bin Laden? He almost fell off the couch.


That alone tells us about the type of concern they had.

The Jersey Girls also feared the appointment of administration insider Philip Zelikow to the Commission would taint the report.  Indeed, their final evaluation of the 9/11 Commission findings is one of scathing criticism, that it did not answer their questions, with the conclusion that it was “an utterly hollow report”.

These women were determined and brave in pursuit of the truth; true American heroes that everyone should be proud of.

That is just one group of family members, booNyzarC, there are many others.  Look up Bill Doyle, head of the Coalition of 9/11 Families who had approximately 7,000 members for instance.  He estimated that half of those he represented believe 9/11 was an inside job to some extent.

He has further stated: -

“The 9/11 Commission is probably the worst representation of the 9/11 Families or for that matter all the American public because it's a sham.  It really is.... We had tons of different questions that we asked them to ask.  They wouldn't do it.  And the continuing cover-up is just beyond belief... There's just such a continuing coverup.  And why don't we just let the information about 9/11 be known?  And then maybe this conspiracy type of thing would go away, but it's never going to go away or I don't think it can go away because they were complicit…”


Yes, the “worst” representation - this is from a man who lost his son on 9/11 and again, as the Jersey Girls, had direct dealing with the 9/11 Commission so knows what he is talking about.

Please click this link and scroll down to the section highlighted pink: “FAMILY MEMBERS”.  There you will find family members who lost loved ones in the towers, on the planes, relatives of emergency responders who also died.  Some of them outright state “inside job”, others that they have unanswered questions, but the uniting factor is the call for a new and independent investigation, the lack of which has served to prolong their suffering.

I will leave it with Christina Kminek, who lost her sister on Flight 77: -

“Here we are five years later. ... We are still left with unanswered questions, unaccountability and facts that come to light that beg new questions or reaffirm unresolved issues during the 9/11 investigation.  There needs to be a new investigation. …

I personally really hoped for one year where September 11th; I could remember those who perished and my sister in peace and not surrounded by all the unanswered questions and the political lies and drama.  I'd like to finally focus on my sister.”


You might ask, what sort of unanswered questions?  Click that link and read what Christina’s mother, who lost her daughter on Flight 77 had to say.

I could go on with more quotes like this but find it upsetting and would rather not.

Honestly booNyzarC, you do not have a leg to stand on trying to claim any sort of moral high-ground for current standing of the official story… I have full confidence I am aligned with a reasonable number of the victims’ family members… you can say I am “full of crap” if you want.

No one side is better than the other - it’s only the truth that matters.


View PostbooNyzarC, on 14 October 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

And don't think that I didn't notice your lack of response to the many other points I made in post #460 (link to page, scroll down) which you only partially responded to here.
I thought we had a roughly parallel discussion going on the other thread about Northwoods and Screw Loose Change so I left it on this one, I didn’t mean to avoid anything.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#497    booNyzarC

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:10 PM

View PostQ24, on 14 October 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

A few of the suggestions you made are so apparently ludicrous as to not be worthy of offence - “whisked off to another country with millions of dollars” for example.  Yes I understand how that particular idea could be perceived as offensive (though to be fair I’ve not heard anyone seriously make the claim).  Personally I wouldn’t have the time of day for anyone claiming that, let alone waste my energy in being offended.  It would be more a case of [door… slam… end of].
You state that "a few of the suggestions" are "ludicrous" but only reference one.  A few denotes more than two.  What are the other two or more suggestions that you think are ludicrous?

I don't disagree that the suggestion is ludicrous by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment.  But it definitely has been suggested by some people and I've seen it more than once.  Here are a couple of examples:

Some people think those passengers were killed, I'd prefer to think they were paid off for their silence. (Source)


*this follows a passenger list of all planes*
RIP - or have a nice lifelong holiday wherever you are... (Source)


*Edit to add another example*
A lot of the people that 'supposedly' died in the planes have moved to other countries with assumed identities and fake passports. Some of their families have joined them overseas.

The ones that wanted to stay in the USA were paid millions of dollars in 'hush money'. (Source)


Ludicrous to suggest such a thing?  Yes.  And disrespectful.  And offensive.



View PostQ24, on 14 October 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

So far as I would be concerned, my loved one had been taken from me and they deserve every fact surrounding the circumstances to be known.  Anything less than that, such as the whitewash of an investigation that currently exists, is the most disrespectful and offensive act against their memory I could ever imagine.

Many of the family members of 9/11 victims feel the same…

Spoiler

I could go on with more quotes like this but find it upsetting and would rather not.

Honestly booNyzarC, you do not have a leg to stand on trying to claim any sort of moral high-ground for current standing of the official story… I have full confidence I am aligned with a reasonable number of the victims’ family members… you can say I am “full of crap” if you want.

No one side is better than the other - it’s only the truth that matters.
Rather than go on with more quotes, why not answer the question I actually posed?  Would those other things I mentioned offend you?



View PostQ24, on 14 October 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

I thought we had a roughly parallel discussion going on the other thread about Northwoods and Screw Loose Change so I left it on this one, I didn’t mean to avoid anything.
Alright, I'll be sure to include those points over in the other thread when I take the time to respond to your latest post there so that you can address them.

Edited by booNyzarC, 14 October 2011 - 03:38 PM.


#498    Q24

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 05:55 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 14 October 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

You state that "a few of the suggestions" are "ludicrous" but only reference one.  A few denotes more than two.  What are the other two or more suggestions that you think are ludicrous?
Any suggestion that involves the victims of 9/11 still being alive and/or without very good cause implicates family members as part of an operation - these ideas should not be given any attention in my opinion.  Thank you for those examples, I guess I don’t listen much to general internet babble.

It is unfortunate, but I would not characterise individuals of the truth movement alone as being capable of such claims.  Have you heard of Tania Head who escaped from WTC2 though her fiance died in the collapses?

http://en.wikipedia....cia_Esteve_Head


View PostbooNyzarC, on 14 October 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

Rather than go on with more quotes, why not answer the question I actually posed?  Would those other things I mentioned offend you?
I answered - third sentence of first paragraph in my previous post.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#499    skyeagle409

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 03:05 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 14 October 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

*this follows a passenger list of all planes*
RIP - or have a nice lifelong holiday wherever you are... (Source)

*Edit to add another example*
A lot of the people that 'supposedly' died in the planes have moved to other countries with assumed identities and fake passports. Some of their families have joined them overseas.

The ones that wanted to stay in the USA were paid millions of dollars in 'hush money'. (Source)


Ludicrous to suggest such a thing?  Yes.  And disrespectful.  And offensive.

This really caught my eye.

Quote

No one died in the planes. Missles hit the towers. Most of the documentaries that show planes show MILITARY planes, not PASSENGER planes.
Some of the films were created months before the attacks actually took place.

Explosions were planted nearly a year in advance of Sept 11 to assure that the buildings would fall. This is why the thousands of people were talking about explosions in the towers on the lower and basment levels [the planes hit 86 stories UP!] and the media refused to air most of their stories.
Most of these stories of the bombs were 'pulled' within 48 hours after the attacks.


What a despicable insult to those innocent victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

9/11 Memorial

Edited by skyeagle409, 16 October 2011 - 03:23 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#500    Wandering

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 07:19 AM

& everyone completely ignores the quotes from even family members of 9/11 victims who have a problem with the investigation.


Who really has their head in the sand?


#501    Scott G

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 12:41 PM

View PostWandering, on 17 October 2011 - 07:19 AM, said:

& everyone completely ignores the quotes from even family members of 9/11 victims who have a problem with the investigation.


Who really has their head in the sand?

I think you meant "official story believers" there, laugh :-).


#502    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:20 PM

View PostWandering, on 17 October 2011 - 07:19 AM, said:

& everyone completely ignores the quotes from even family members of 9/11 victims who have a problem with the investigation.


Who really has their head in the sand?
Who exactly do you think is ignoring quotes from family members?  Me?


#503    skyeagle409

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:43 AM

View PostWandering, on 17 October 2011 - 07:19 AM, said:

& everyone completely ignores the quotes from even family members of 9/11 victims who have a problem with the investigation.
Who really has their head in the sand?

Apparently, a judge has ruled against Al-Qaeda and has ordered it to pay $ 9 billion in damages. After all of these years, there are those who are not buying into the 9/11 conspiracist claims that the U.S. government was responsible for the 9/11 attacks because there is no evidence, and never was.

The evidence points to foreign terrorist, which is why Al-Qaeda has been ordered to pay lots of money.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#504    Wandering

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:52 AM

Quote

Who exactly do you think is ignoring quotes from family members? Me?

After Q's post which bought up some interesting information from family members themselves showing themselves to be against the investigation, who replied to the quotes??

You even put the quotes in the spoiler box, why hide them?? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Quote

Rather than go on with more quotes, why not answer the question I actually posed? Would those other things I mentioned offend you?

Then you say that. ^ . I guess what the family members think of their own families lives means nothing to you.


Skyeagle on the other hand, completely ignores the quotes in favour of finding some far out theory and quoting it here, then calling it despicable. Which had...nothing to do with what was posted. Hey I'm getting used to that though.

Edited by Wandering, 19 October 2011 - 12:53 AM.


#505    booNyzarC

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 02:54 AM

View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

After Q's post which bought up some interesting information from family members themselves showing themselves to be against the investigation, who replied to the quotes??

You even put the quotes in the spoiler box, why hide them?? That doesn't make any sense to me.
The quotes weren't relevant to what I was asking Q24, it was a long post, and I put them in spoilers to cut down the size of the quoted post.  I had no desire or reason to "hide" them.

What is your expectation of response to the quotes?

Speaking of which, did you respond to the quotes beyond trying to vilify people who may not agree with the truth movement?



View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

Then you say that. ^ . I guess what the family members think of their own families lives means nothing to you.
As I said before, the quotes weren't relevant to my question to Q24.  He still hasn't answered my question by the way.  Even though he seems to think that he has, he hasn't.

I find your assumption that the victims of 911 mean nothing to me offensive, and it comes across to me as a borderline flame attempt.

Not that I have any requirement to validate myself to you, but my heart goes out to the victims of 911; both the people lost and the surviving family members.



View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

Skyeagle on the other hand, completely ignores the quotes in favour of finding some far out theory and quoting it here, then calling it despicable. Which had...nothing to do with what was posted. Hey I'm getting used to that though.
Maybe you should worry more about yourself than everyone else.  All too often you seem to pop into these threads and make judgments about the character of other members.

Perhaps you should focus more on the facts being discussed.


#506    The Silver Thong

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:28 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 19 October 2011 - 12:43 AM, said:



The evidence points to Al-Qaeda has been ordered to pay terrorist, which is why Al-Qaeda has been ordered to pay lots of money.


Do you mean Saudia Arabia and Isreal and the United States oh wait they are all allies or should we also include Pakistan that hide Bin Ladin.  Foreign and demostic is the key. The evidence does not point to a rogue group of people with a vengance against the west. What would be the goal as far as having the ME invaded. They would have had nothing to gain, who did.  Afganistan and Iraq, give me a break, two nations weak to the point they could not imagine a war with the US.

I do not claim anything but the US just went belly up along with the Eurpean union in this BS fight for what.  It`s a lie as to how or why who cares we all know it`s based on bullcrap.  Time to figure that out the truth with out some blind patriotism because some people served in the military as I find that opinion the most bias of all.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#507    Wandering

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:54 AM

Quote

The quotes weren't relevant to what I was asking Q24, it was a long post, and I put them in spoilers to cut down the size of the quoted post. I had no desire or reason to "hide" them.

What is your expectation of response to the quotes?

Speaking of which, did you respond to the quotes beyond trying to vilify people who may not agree with the truth movement?

You said:

Quote

I respect your typical attention to detail Q24, even if I often don't agree with your interpretations of things. But at least admit that you'd be offended by these gross violations of respect and common decency. Anyone would; and rightly so.


By 'anyone would' I am under the impression you think that 'anyone' would be offended by the claims that the 9/11 victims didn't die due to a terrorist strike. Q24's post is an example that even the family members think there is more to the story & are not offended by a quest for further answers. As far as I was concerned, he was reacting to a presumption from a few people on this thread that family members of victims would be 'shocked and disgusted' by people asking questions. He pointed out that they themselves, are asking questions.


I have no need to debate what he said, as I agree with it. It was the lack of response from people who insinuated family members would be upset that did not respond which surprised me.


Quote

Maybe you should worry more about yourself than everyone else. All too often you seem to pop into these threads and make judgments about the character of other members.

I have come to this board naive in the ways of Internet Debate Forums, I (for some reason) expected people to be sharing ideas, discussing, debunking, creating and researching theories about various subjects. While there are definitely people on here like that, the majority of people on here seem to take the 'eyes wide shut' approach and seem to ignore anything that doesn't fit in with what they believe. On both sides to be sure, but personally, I find it I guess....annoying? I feel there's no point in putting as much time and effort into discussing this with people who have already got their minds made up and have no desire for change.

I for example, do believe that 9/11 wasn't a terrorist act as we know it. However, I would gladly take some final irrefutable proof that it was and be happy, as I would rather there was a few crazies in a cave, than a global octopus of terror.

Someone else for example, who loves to repeat menial things, who ignores key points of information 'that doesnt matter ignore it' in favour of repeating repeating repeating the same information... What a waste of everyones time talking to them.


#508    booNyzarC

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 03:00 PM

View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

You said:

Quote

I respect your typical attention to detail Q24, even if I often don't agree with your interpretations of things. But at least admit that you'd be offended by these gross violations of respect and common decency. Anyone would; and rightly so.

By 'anyone would' I am under the impression you think that 'anyone' would be offended by the claims that the 9/11 victims didn't die due to a terrorist strike. Q24's post is an example that even the family members think there is more to the story & are not offended by a quest for further answers. As far as I was concerned, he was reacting to a presumption from a few people on this thread that family members of victims would be 'shocked and disgusted' by people asking questions. He pointed out that they themselves, are asking questions.
Instead of assuming, why not go and read the questions I was asking Q24 to answer in my post #494?

Here, I'll break them down into a list format for easier consumption:
  • So you wouldn't be offended by people suggesting that your loved ones weren't killed in the planes?
  • You wouldn't be offended by people suggesting that the phone calls you received from that loved one was faked?
  • You wouldn't be offended by people suggesting that your loved one may have been whisked off to another country with millions of dollars in payola to keep their mouth shut (and effectively leaving you in the lurch with a false assumption that they were dead)?
  • You wouldn't be offended by being accused of being part of the conspiracy for describing the last conversations you had with your loved one?
  • You wouldn't be offended by people twisting, distorting, or outright fabricating "facts" in order to pursue conspiracy theories at any cost?
  • You wouldn't be offended by someone suggesting that the heroism that your loved one displayed in order to prevent one more plane from causing even more damage to the national psyche was all a lie?

Keep in mind that this entire line of questions actually started back in my post #460 regarding Loose Change and the rebuttal to that mocumentary which was cleverly titled Screw Loose Change.

Most of the questions in that list are directly related to what Loose Change did (excluding the third one, which ironically appears to be the only one that Q24 actually answered...  while you appear to only be addressing the first.).



View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

I have no need to debate what he said, as I agree with it. It was the lack of response from people who insinuated family members would be upset that did not respond which surprised me.
I didn't address the quotes directly for the reasons I've already given.  They weren't relevant to my questions to Q24.  Do you not find it odd that instead of actually answering my questions he diverted to this list of quotes?  He likewise avoided responding to my points about his assessment of Screw Loose Change based on watching an entire 1.87% of the film.  But that, I suppose, is alright in your eyes because you agree with his point of view already?



View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

I have come to this board naive in the ways of Internet Debate Forums, I (for some reason) expected people to be sharing ideas, discussing, debunking, creating and researching theories about various subjects. While there are definitely people on here like that, the majority of people on here seem to take the 'eyes wide shut' approach and seem to ignore anything that doesn't fit in with what they believe. On both sides to be sure, but personally, I find it I guess....annoying? I feel there's no point in putting as much time and effort into discussing this with people who have already got their minds made up and have no desire for change.
Then feel free to address the relevant points of the debate and discuss them.  When you take the stance of changing the debate to one of the character of your opponent you risk the dreaded ad hominem logical fallacy.  This actually detracts from the overall discussion that you have indicated you are interested in having by side-tracking the participants.  Kind of like where we find ourselves now; distracted away from the actual topics.



View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

I for example, do believe that 9/11 wasn't a terrorist act as we know it. However, I would gladly take some final irrefutable proof that it was and be happy, as I would rather there was a few crazies in a cave, than a global octopus of terror.
Why exactly do you believe that it wasn't a terrorist act?  Is there irrefutable proof that it wasn't a terrorist act?  If there is, I certainly haven't seen it.


#509    Q24

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:39 PM

View PostWandering, on 19 October 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

By 'anyone would' I am under the impression you think that 'anyone' would be offended by the claims that the 9/11 victims didn't die due to a terrorist strike. Q24's post is an example that even the family members think there is more to the story & are not offended by a quest for further answers. As far as I was concerned, he was reacting to a presumption from a few people on this thread that family members of victims would be 'shocked and disgusted' by people asking questions. He pointed out that they themselves, are asking questions.
Exactly.

There are some who make attempt to claim a moral high-ground against those who question the official version of 9/11, by alleging such doubt and discussion is offensive to the victims’ families.  I have provided actual quotes from a number of family members which prove the failure of that position.  You will find that those who adhere to the official version of 9/11, more often than not, ignore those quotes and continue on their preset track.

It could be seen as quite disrespectful really - this is a part of why I previously said, “No one side is better than the other”.


View PostbooNyzarC, on 19 October 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:

As I said before, the quotes weren't relevant to my question to Q24.  He still hasn't answered my question by the way.
The quotes are entirely relevant to my answer.  I will spell it out because you seem to be having trouble taking an answer from what has been said:  I would not personally be offended.  At most, where I considered an idea ludicrous, it would receive my disdain, derision or contempt.  The position I have taken (even the alternative position Loose Change has taken) is generally in line with a number of the family members own questions.  What I find most offensive is that the public and those family members have to the present day been left with half-truths.

No one should be deterred from questioning 9/11, even if it may lead to incorrect theory along the way.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#510    booNyzarC

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:04 PM

View PostQ24, on 19 October 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

Exactly.

There are some who make attempt to claim a moral high-ground against those who question the official version of 9/11, by alleging such doubt and discussion is offensive to the victims’ families.  I have provided actual quotes from a number of family members which prove the failure of that position.  You will find that those who adhere to the official version of 9/11, more often than not, ignore those quotes and continue on their preset track.

It could be seen as quite disrespectful really - this is a part of why I previously said, “No one side is better than the other”.
I wasn't attempting to claim any moral high-ground.  I asked a direct set of 6 questions.  You responded to one of those questions initially.



View PostQ24, on 19 October 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

The quotes are entirely relevant to my answer.  I will spell it out because you seem to be having trouble taking an answer from what has been said:  I would not personally be offended.  At most, where I considered an idea ludicrous, it would receive my disdain, derision or contempt.  The position I have taken (even the alternative position Loose Change has taken) is generally in line with a number of the family members own questions.  What I find most offensive is that the public and those family members have to the present day been left with half-truths.
Your answer was initially in reference to one specific question.  But I will accept your global answer to the rest of the questions now.  Considering that you indicate your response to such things would be disdain, derision, or contempt I think it is clear that you would be offended.



View PostQ24, on 19 October 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

No one should be deterred from questioning 9/11, even if it may lead to incorrect theory along the way.
I've never said that anyone should be deterred from asking questions.  Loose Change goes far beyond asking questions.  And that was my point.



Suffice it to say that we are all (I assume) concerned with the senseless murder of innocents which took place on 911, regardless of who either of us see as responsible for those deaths.





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