33 replies to this topic

[Saru]

Scientists are finding more and more ways to explain the various aspects of near-death experiences.

Live Science said:

Approximately 3 percent of the U. S. population says they have had a near-death experience, according to a Gallup poll. Near-death experiences are reported across cultures, with written records of them dating back to ancient Greece.

Read more...

[Seeker79]

Everything can be explained with a creative enough mind. Everything we experience in this world must be experienced through the brain. I'm not sure what else anyone was expecting. OBEs are experiences all experiences must have nural component in a biologic being. The question is where does the experience come from and why. Under this logic if I eat a banana, then the chemicals in the banana excite my taste buds, hormones are released, endorphins, nurons fire etc etc etc. I guess the banana is not real because it's only in my head.

The only way we would be able to tell if NDEs are spiritual in nature or not is if they HAPPEN WHEN PEOPLE ARE BRAIN DEAD as well.

http://www.near-deat...evidence01.html

Being creative.
Let me explaine non locality. It's all very simple you see.
In quantum mechanics particles behave as both waves and particles.  Scientists can create a scenerio where there are two beams of particles but in reality they are the same beam in two different places. ( this is true) this is known as entanglment. What ever happens to one automatically happens to the other. This seems to violate speed of light and information transfer laws.... Non locality. ( still true) in reality it does not.... Here is why.  being waves, what we see as particles are simply the peaks of the waves. Our current technology gives us the ability to stretch the wave and follow each peak. This gives the illusion that there are two different beams when in actuality there is only one. So what apears to be faster than light information exchange is not, because we are only acting on one entity. ( this is bull.... I made the whole thing up)

My point being. It's easy to "explaine" anything. Without any real data or a real reason...... Bias speculation is meaningless.

The real question with NDEs (and this comes up time and time again).... Is why nature and Human experience has created an experience that mimics exactly what we would expect if there were a spiritual realm. Why not flying spagetti monsters or purple unicorns.

I'm sure someone has materialistic biased explanation explanation..... But So far non if it adds up to anything more than creative writing.

[Alienated Being]

I thought there was already a logical, scientific explanation presented to explain such a phenomenon? Such as chemical releases in the brain as a result of dying brain cells?

[Seeker79]

Alienated Being, on 14 September 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

I thought there was already a logical, scientific explanation presented to explain such a phenomenon? Such as chemical releases in the brain as a result of dying brain cells?

Yup it's chlorine. You see chlorine binds with nural transmitters to disrupt electrical signals. This makes sort of a white noise in the visual cortex. Thats why people experience a bright light. Also tunnel vision. Hence a tunnel with a bright light at the end.......

( oh dear am I being creative again)

Edited by Seeker79, 14 September 2011 - 12:45 PM.

[Rolci]

can science explain that according to the second law of thermodynamics, enthropy cannot dicrease, meaning complexity should decrease in the universe, still you have the emergence of life from lifenessness, consciousness from "I don't know what", and then things like unconditional love, like when one chooses to respond with forgiveness and acceptance to a hostile act. Can't see how the laws of the universe as scientist interpret them can result in all of the above. Especially with the funny explanation that it was all a big accident, including "nothing" exploding into all these galaxies. Just too funny...

[Dirty Bubble]

Rolci, on 14 September 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

can science explain that according to the second law of thermodynamics, enthropy cannot dicrease, meaning complexity should decrease in the universe, still you have the emergence of life from lifenessness, consciousness from "I don't know what", and then things like unconditional love, like when one chooses to respond with forgiveness and acceptance to a hostile act. Can't see how the laws of the universe as scientist interpret them can result in all of the above. Especially with the funny explanation that it was all a big accident, including "nothing" exploding into all these galaxies. Just too funny...

Please do read a little more about thermodynamics and science in general before making blind posts.

[Dirty Bubble]

Seeker79, on 14 September 2011 - 04:14 PM, said:

- post removed -

A straw man argument is attacking a position that the other party does not hold. The post was an excellent example of one.

[undertheflow]

Alienated Being, on 14 September 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

I thought there was already a logical, scientific explanation presented to explain such a phenomenon? Such as chemical releases in the brain as a result of dying brain cells?

Well, here's the problem.  The part of the text I bolded should be replaced with the word "materialistic."  Basically science is the use of the scientific method to study things, materialism is the belief that ONLY what science finds is real.

For example, a scientist would say that "ghosts" can be explained by leaky pipes and overactive imaginations, but would also acknowledge that there is the possibility that "ghosts" exist.  A materialist would say that ghosts don't exist and can only be explained by leaky pipes.  

Within the context of this phenomenon, you have the problem of NDE's occuring while a person is brain dead, as seeker just pointed out.  You also have the problem of people who learn to initiate verifiable out of body experiences at will.  But the biggest problem here is that we don't know if the experience is caused by chemical releases, or if chemical releases are caused by the experience.

I personally could care less if one chooses to assign purely materialistic explanations to NDEs.  At the end of the day it's just more work for Retrievers.  I just find it amusing that scientists don't realize how religious they are.

[Annabis]

Quote

- post removed -

I'm not sure why you two are getting so hot headed and argumentative over something so insignificant. In my opinion near death experiences are nothing more than a chemical reaction caused by your brain. My example would be when I took a large dose of DMT. Within seconds I was decending down a geometrical hole of vivid color and then launched into the depths of space. From there God, or some Greater Being held me in her arms while the universe sang to me. I heard the most beautiful sounds, saw unexplainable images and felt as if my aura was glowing beyond all physical capability. When I returned to reality I had an overall greater appreciation and love for life and the universe as a whole. I am sure a lot of you will say okay, well, that was under the influence of drugs but the truth of the matter is that DMT is the same chemical your brain releases while dreaming and during NDE's. This is why I believe a NDE is nothing more than your brains reaction to a specific chemical release.

[sutemi]

It has been taught for 1000s of years that a state of contentment exists within (heaven is within), or an experience of being at/in peace. What stops this experience in our everyday lives? distractions from the world around us and thoughts (brain activity) of all kinds, constant info and it is said that meditation can release us so we can interface with this inner experience. NDEs are similar in as much as any slowing of the brain and removal of external stimuli will often lead to this awareness of an inner experience of peace. Here is a short film about the brain and what happens when it starts to shut down. This film is brilliant although she doea get imotional toward the end. See what you think.
http://www.ted.com/i...f_insight.html.
         I have been practicing meditation for over thirty years and have experienced this state quite a few times. I can verify for what its worth that the doctor in this short film was experiencing a real state that is available to all and points to most NDE experience as being real.

[undertheflow]

Annabis, on 14 September 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

I'm not sure why you two are getting so hot headed and argumentative over something so insignificant. In my opinion near death experiences are nothing more than a chemical reaction caused by your brain. My example would be when I took a large dose of DMT. Within seconds I was decending down a geometrical hole of vivid color and then launched into the depths of space. From there God, or some Greater Being held me in her arms while the universe sang to me. I heard the most beautiful sounds, saw unexplainable images and felt as if my aura was glowing beyond all physical capability. When I returned to reality I had an overall greater appreciation and love for life and the universe as a whole. I am sure a lot of you will say okay, well, that was under the influence of drugs but the truth of the matter is that DMT is the same chemical your brain releases while dreaming and during NDE's. This is why I believe a NDE is nothing more than your brains reaction to a specific chemical release.

That's a good point.  But the issue becomes more complex when a patient has an NDE while completely brain dead, or when the patient reports hearing and seeing things while floating around the ceiling that they could not possibly know due to their lack of consciousness.  Most scientists discount these aspects of NDE's because of their personal beliefs.

It's a complex issue, I personally don't trust science as far as I can throw it, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.  We'll all know the truth one day, won't we?

[_Only]

I was wondering if any research has been done into why many people have an NDE with a strong feeling of euphoria attached, but a small percentage of cases have a feeling of dread and fear. Has there been any thoughts about that?

I only ask because I knew someone who nearly died drowning in a pool when he was young, and went to a very, very scary place, instead of the usual euphoric experience.

If it is chemicals released to the brain, maybe he was having a "bad trip"?

[_Only]

Annabis, on 14 September 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

This is why I believe a NDE is nothing more than your brains reaction to a specific chemical release.

Or a release of a chemical that allows you to return to the "real world".

I know; silly idea, but romantic. Everyone would like to think this world of ups and downs is just an illusion, and there's some other purely euphoric world out there with some loving creator (see heaven).

Quote

- posts removed -

*edt* - Filled in a few missing letters. And man, sounds like you two need to start your own meaning of straw man thread, or maybe take it to PM?

[Seeker79]

Jerry Only, on 15 September 2011 - 06:43 AM, said:

Or a release of a chemical that allows you to return to the "real world".

I know; silly idea, but romantic. Everyone would like to think this world of ups and downs is just an illusion, and there's some other purely euphoric world out there with some loving creator (see heaven).


*edt* - Filled in a few missing letters. And man, sounds like you two need to start your own meaning of straw man thread, or maybe take it to PM?

Yeah no kidding, I do apologies for my part in all that.

Of course the problem with thinking it's just all brain chemistry is that everything, every perception, feeling, and experience is just Brain chemistry.  The experience is real.... It's the nature of the experience that is debatable.

What makes you think your food is real if it's just all chemistry?

[_Only]

Seeker79, on 15 September 2011 - 02:53 PM, said:

Yeah no kidding, I do apologies for my part in all that.

Of course the problem with thinking it's just all brain chemistry is that everything, every perception, feeling, and experience is just Brain chemistry.  The experience is real.... It's the nature of the experience that is debatable.

What makes you think your food is real if it's just all chemistry?

The Channel 7 news told me it's real!