45 replies to this topic

[DieChecker]

evancj, on 08 October 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

I disagree with this statement (as it is presented). Care to elaborate on these cold climate adaptations?

My bet is very few of the cold climate adaptations you are referring to were physiological, and those few physiological adaptations were not adequate in and of themselves for survival in ice age Europe and Asia.

My bet is what you are claiming as adaptations to cold have nothing to do with cold, and more to do with brain development and technological development. Not only that I would bet the basic technological advancements needed for a tropical animal to migrate and survive in a cold climate were already well developed prior to them living in a cold climate.

I would also argue that there have not been a lot of what you call "apes adapted to Cold". In the long history of primates there have been multitudes of species. We know they started in the tropics and very few of that multitude evolved the physiology need to live in cold climates. And out of the primates no ape has ever been proven to have evolved the physiology to survive in cold climates. And out of the apes only one genus (Homo) has ever had the brain power, and technology to be able to live in cold climates.

As you can see very few apes have ever been able to live outside of the tropics.

I'd say that just because traits are seen in ancient northern fossil apes, that mostly resemble tropical apes does not mean the differneces were not critical to their survival in northern climates. There are fossils of great apes from Europe (Austria, Germany, Russia...) that suggest these apes were there for millions of years, yet glaciacian occured even then to greater or less degress, thus we can say that these apes weathered freezing climates in winter, if not during ice ages.

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Both Afropithecus and Heliopithecus (which some workers regard as members of the same genus) had a thick covering of enamel on their teeth - good for processing hard foods, such as nuts, and tough foods protected by durable husks. This dental innovation may have played a key role in helping their descendants establish a foothold in the forests of Eurasia by enabling them to exploit food resources not available to Proconsul and most earlier apes.

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The movement of organisms into new environments drives speciation, and the arrival of apes in Eurasia was no exception. Indeed, within a geologic blink of an eye, these primates adapted to the novel ecological conditions and diversified into a plethora of forms - at least eight known in just 1.5 million years.

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In 2001 and 2003 my colleagues and I described a more modern-looking ape, Griphopithecus, from 16.5-million-year-old sites in Germany and Turkey, pushing the Eurasian ape record back by more than a million years.

http://www.primates.com/history/

With Humans and the ancestor species and cousin species, really it depends on what you call adapted to cold. A chimp left on the siberian steppe will die in what... a day or two. Yet a human, even with only just clothes will live much longer. Will you argue that intellegence is not a good adaptation to cold?

The neanderthal and it's ancestor species (practically the same for H.Sapiens) are commonly noted as evolved for cold.

In short there you go... lots of apes suited for cold.

The longer story... stronger jaws, heavier build, shorter limbs, breathing/nasal changes. Changes only needed if an ape moved into harsher climate.

[Malaria_Kidd]

Xanthurion2, on 06 October 2011 - 07:00 AM, said:

i hope they find it. that would be awesome

Maybe the Russian's have found it. If you can read Russian please post the date. The only words in English are from 1 comment from a skeptic posted October 6, 2011.

1 Апрель 2011

This was found this morning posted at The Paranormal News in the UK and it is posted at About dot com under paranormal phenomenon.

http://www.10kanal.ru/news/13254.html

http://www.theparanormalnews.com

http://www.about.com



Edited for adding the date in Russian. Mysterial has no "edited by" line.

Edited by Malaria_Kidd, 09 October 2011 - 09:27 AM.

[Falael]

And what does it feed of ? Snowballs ?!

[evancj]

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

I'd say that just because traits are seen in ancient northern fossil apes, that mostly resemble tropical apes does not mean the differneces were not critical to their survival in northern climates. There are fossils of great apes from Europe (Austria, Germany, Russia...) that suggest these apes were there for millions of years, yet glaciacian occured even then to greater or less degress, thus we can say that these apes weathered freezing climates in winter, if not during ice ages.


http://www.primates.com/history/

The apes you are talking about did not live in cold northern climates. Sure they lived in Europe but the continents where in different positions back then, and most land masses where covered with tropical and subtropical forests and savannas. They died out when Europe started cooling down.

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http://anthro.paloma...tes/early_2.htm

During the Oligocene, the progressive growth of this immense barrier very likely altered continental weather patterns significantly by blocking the summer monsoonal rains.  These and other major geological events during the Oligocene very likely triggered global climatic changes.  The cooling and drying trend with associated expansion of grasslands that had begun in the late Eocene Epoch accelerated, especially in the northern hemisphere.  A result was the general disappearance of primates from these northern areas.  However, climates in most regions were still warmer than today.

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http://anthro.paloma...tes/early_2.htm

Primate fossils are common from the Miocene.  However, not all primates are equally represented in the fossil record.  Apes apparently evolved from monkeys early in this epoch.  Fossil monkeys and prosimians are comparatively rare from most of the Miocene, but apes are common.  It appears that apes at that time occupied some ecological niches that would later be filled by monkeys.  One of the earliest of the monkey to ape transitional primates was Proconsul click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced.  It lived in African forests 21-14 million years ago.

Among the numerous Miocene primate species were the ancestors of all modern apes and humans.  By 14 million years ago, the group of apes that included our ancestors was apparently in the process of adapting to life on the edges of the expanding savannas in Southern Europe.  They were very likely members of the genus Dryopithecus click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced, which were generally similar in appearance to modern African apes.  These apes evolved mostly during a planetary heat wave that began around 15 million years ago.  This caused enough polar ice to melt so that sea levels once again rose 80-130 feet.

Toward the end of the Miocene, less hospitable cooler conditions in the northern hemisphere caused many primate species to become extinct while some survived by migrating south into Africa and South Asia where it remained relatively warm.  About 8-9 million years ago, the descendants of the dryopithecines click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced in Africa diverged into two lines--one that led to gorillas and another to humans, chimpanzees, and bonobos.  Around 5-6 million years ago, a further divergence occurred which separated the ancestors of modern chimpanzees and bonobos from the early hominins click this icon to hear the preceding term pronounced (human-like primates) that were our direct ancestors.

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

With Humans and the ancestor species and cousin species, really it depends on what you call adapted to cold. A chimp left on the siberian steppe will die in what... a day or two. Yet a human, even with only just clothes will live much longer.

Well if are talking the dead of winter and all the human has is clothing to protect him then I would not give him much longer that the chimp.

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

Will you argue that intellegence is not a good adaptation to cold?

Sure intelligence is key. But you could be a genius and not be able to build a fire, shelter, trap, or hunt. Technical know how is what allowed the genus homo to live in cold northern climates, not just being smart.  

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

The neanderthal and it's ancestor species (practically the same for H.Sapiens) are commonly noted as evolved for cold.

I don't disagree that neanderthals and even modern sapiens have evolved some cold adaptations. But as I said before those adaptations are not enough by themselves to keep us or the neanderthals alive though the cold winters. Both species needed tools, clothing, fire and shelter in order to survive clod climates.    

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

In short there you go... lots of apes suited for cold.

I still strongly disagree. Can you provide a list of all the "cold adapted apes"? My guess is you can not find one ape that has the physiology needed to live in cold climates, without the use of technology.

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

The longer story... stronger jaws, heavier build, shorter limbs, breathing/nasal changes. Changes only needed if an ape moved into harsher climate.

Like I said (three times now) things like Allen's rule and larger nose/sinus passages are helpful for dealing with cold climates however they are not enough to keep a naked ape alive in freezing temperatures. Not so sure about the jaw thing, even tropical apes had and have way stronger jaws than we do.

[psyche101]

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

The neanderthal and it's ancestor species (practically the same for H.Sapiens) are commonly noted as evolved for cold.

That is where I was going as well, but when Evan questioned that, I thought best check up on this. There seems to be a development in this area - from Wiki:

Quote

Cold-adapted theory
Some people thought that the large Neanderthal noses were an adaptation to the cold,[13] but primate and arctic animal studies have shown sinus size reduction in areas of extreme cold rather than enlargement in accordance with Allen's rule.[14] Todd C. Rae summarizes explanations about Neanderthal anatomy as trying to find explanations for the "paradox" that their traits are not cold-adapted.[14] Therefore, Todd C. Rae concludes that the design of the large and prognathic Neanderthal nose was evolved for the hotter climate of the Middle East and was kept when the Neanderthals entered Europe.[14] Miquel Hernández of the Department of Animal Biology at the University of Barcelona said the "high and narrow nose of Eskimos" and "Neanderthals" is an "adaption to a cold and dry environment", since it contributes to warming and moisturizing the air and the "recovery of heat and moisture from expired air".[15]

LINK

How things change eh.

[psyche101]

DieChecker, on 09 October 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

The longer story... stronger jaws, heavier build, shorter limbs, breathing/nasal changes. Changes only needed if an ape moved into harsher climate.

Or had to evolve to a new diet, perhaps brought on by climate change.

[DieChecker]

evancj, on 10 October 2011 - 11:19 PM, said:

The apes you are talking about did not live in cold northern climates. Sure they lived in Europe but the continents where in different positions back then, and most land masses where covered with tropical and subtropical forests and savannas. They died out when Europe started cooling down.

I'd have to disagree that the continents were in any different positions even 20 million years ago. most everything was in the same place it is now, within a couple hundred kilometers.
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/Mio.jpg

I do thank you for the other quotes. I did not know all of that.

I did find this...

Quote

We interpret the change from strong gradient to normal gradient (at about 15 Ma) and the onset of low absolute precipitation values as a result of the initiation of global cooling associated with obliquity modulation of climate (Holbourn et al., 2007). Continental proxy-data show no significant cooling at that time (Böhme et al., 2007), implying that surface temperature changes are beyond the resolution of the methods. The massive and stepwise global cooling between 14 and 13 Ma (Mi3 and Mi4 isotope event at 13.8 and 13.2 Ma, Shevenell et al., 2004; Westerhold et al., 2005; Holbourn et al., 2007) is however well documented in terrestrial ecosystems and proxy-data indicates for Central Europe a drop in mean annual temperatures between 3 and 5 °C (relative to the climate optimum; Böhme, 2003; Mosbrugger et al., 2005; Uhl et al., 2006). The latitudinal precipitation gradient responds to this cooling with a strong decrease to levels about 0.5 mm/day lower than today

Quote

Palaeobotanical proxy-data indicate no significant changes in the Central European mean annual temperatures from the Serravallian until the Messinian, with values ranging between 14 and 16 °C similar to the early Serravallian (e.g. Mosbrugger et al., 2005; Erdei et al., 2007).

http://www.geophysik...n_Gradients.pdf

But even temperatures of todays range would be "cold" to a chimp or gorilla. 14C is like 60F, and is much cooler then the average found at the equator. For an ape to survive in even Todays Germany or the Balkans, they would need to be able to survive cold winters.

Thus if you define cold as anywhere that winter gets below freezing then we could easily say that these 15M years ago apes lived in cold environements.

Quote

I don't disagree that neanderthals and even modern sapiens have evolved some cold adaptations. But as I said before those adaptations are not enough by themselves to keep us or the neanderthals alive though the cold winters. Both species needed tools, clothing, fire and shelter in order to survive clod climates.

Yet they are adaptations. Adaptations to cold. I might argue I never said that there were lots of apes that lived on glaciers and ate ice, only that there were lots of apes adapted to cold(er) climates.

Quote

I still strongly disagree. Can you provide a list of all the "cold adapted apes"? My guess is you can not find one ape that has the physiology needed to live in cold climates, without the use of technology.

Well obviously I am not. I'm not defending a Graduate disertation. I'm posting opinion based on a handful of facts. I'm not an paleontologist or whoever goes after Miocene animal fossils.

It again goes to the definition of cold climate. You apparently are thinking Arctic and I am thinking Northern Temperate/Subarctic. Clearly these apes existed in Northern Europe and thrived there for millions of years. And you would argue that there was no winter and no freezing weather there, apparently? Also that the Homo Erectus that wandered Europe and northern China must have used technology to survive, when you have no real proof that they needed it other then that they used it (fire). Has there been any H. Erectus clothing found?

H. Erectus remains were found near Zhoukoudian in China. A location that is at a latitude equal to Northern Korea. A place that is very cold in the winters. Was 800,000 years ago also a very warm period?

H. Erectus remains were found near Dmanisi in Georgia (Europe). Another area that is known for very cold winters. Could the unclothed H.Erectus have survived with only fire?

Could a modern human survive in a Korean winter or a Caucasus winter? Unlikely. So we have to assume they were tougher and more cold adapted then a modern human, who is very much more cold tolerant then any of the other great apes still living.

Edited by DieChecker, 11 October 2011 - 01:53 AM.

[evancj]

I don't know how I can make it any clearer that Europe, Eurasia, and South East Asia were DID NOT have temperate climates back then.    

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http://www.sociology...n-evolution.php

During the Miocene epoch the family Hominoidea diverged into two sub-families the Pongidae (apes) and the Hominidae(humans).The exact point of divergence between the ape line and the human line is debatable. In general Dryopithecus is considered to be ancestor of both apes and humans.

Dryopithecus: This genus lived in Africa,China,India and Europe. The genetic title dryopithecus means oak wood apes because it is believed that the environmental conditions were such at that time with densely forested tropical lowlands and the members might have been predominantly herbivorous.

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http://johnhawks.net...s_overview.html

The geographic ranges of living apes do not extend north of the tropics. Thus, it may be surprising that once Europe was the home to a considerable diversity of apes. With the warmer and wetter climate of the Miocene, Europe was an ideal habitat for early hominoids, and they extended across the continent from Spain to Turkey, as far north as Paris. What may be even more surprising than the great productivity of Europe for paleontologists seeking Miocene apes is that Europe possibly was the principal center of their evolution and home of the common ancestors of humans, chimpanzees, and gorillas.

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http://www.clim-past...7-1935-2011.pdf

The warm climate of the Middle Miocene was the warmest period of the last 25 million
years, contrasting the Cenozoic long term cooling (Zachos et al., 2001). Temperatures
during the Middle Miocene were about 3–6K warmer than today (Tripati et al.,
2009). The equator-to-pole temperature gradient was reduced both over land and
20 ocean (Nikolaev, 2006; Bruch et al., 2007). The climate in Europe was warmer and
more humid (B¨ohme et al., 2011; Bruch et al., 2010). Even in the Sahara region, conditions
were wet to very wet, signalling less desert coverage (Senut et al., 2009). The
continents were densely wooded; evergreen forests expanded to at least 45 N, and
boreal forest expanded northward as far as the Arctic circle (Wolfe, 1985; Williams
25 et al., 2008).

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http://www.sciencedi...012821X08005943

From 13.0 Ma until about 9 Ma, both records show a similar trend, evolving from a long dry period (13–11 Ma) into a “washhouse climate” (10.2–9.8 Ma), characterized by global warm conditions and several times more precipitation than present. The transition from washhouse to a dryer climate between 9.7 and 9.5 Ma and the concomitant cooling episode appear to have triggered a severe biotic event known as the Vallesian crisis, which included the extinction of hominoids in Western Europe.

Quote

http://www.ugr.es/~g...07. Palaeo3.pdf

Pollen analysis of sections spanning the Middle Miocene (Langhian and Serravallian) from southern Spain to Switzerland has been carried out with the aim of reconstructing the existing latitudinal environmental gradient. Floral assemblages indicate a tropical–subtropical to warm–temperate climate for the entire area during the Middle Miocene. The presence, in all pollen spectra, of taxa with high temperature requirements demonstrates that the latitudinal gradient in temperature was relatively low. The development of a diverse subarid flora in southern Spain including Neurada, Lygeum, Prosopis, Calligonum, Nitraria, Caesalpiniaceae, etc., points to a very dry climate with a marked seasonality. These features clearly indicate that a very warm and dry climate (i.e. a steppe environment) was already present during the Langhian in the northwestern Mediterranean area.

Quote

http://www.pnas.org/...6/29/11867.full

The impact of the Late Miocene climate change on the land biota was considerable. The most marked was probably the Mid-Vallesian Crisis (9.6 Ma ago) (42, 43) that resulted in extinction of many faunal lineages in western Europe, especially taxa associated with closed habitats (4), including hominoid primates. It has been suggested that the reason for Mid-Vallesian Crisis was change in the vegetation structure from tropical evergreen to deciduous forest and woodland. It has been proposed (43) that this shift was caused by altered oceanic and atmospheric circulation patterns. This hypothesis is supported by our results.

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http://www.primates.com/history/

So what happened to the myriad species that did not evolve into the living great apes and humans, and why did the ancestors of extant species persevere? Clues have come from paleoclimatological studies. Throughout the middle Miocene, the great apes flourished in Eurasia, thanks to its then lush subtropical forest cover and consistently warm temperatures. These conditions assured a nearly continuous supply of ripe fruits and an easily traversed arboreal habitat with several tree stories. Climate changes in the late Miocene brought an end to this easy living. The combined effects of Alpine, Himalayan and East African mountain building, shifting ocean currents, and the early stages of polar ice cap formation precipitated the birth of the modern Asian monsoon cycle, the desiccation of East Africa and the development of a temperate climate in Europe. Most of the Eurasian great apes went extinct as a result of this environmental overhaul. The two lineages that did persevere - —those represented by Sivapithecus and Dryopithecus - did so by moving south of the Tropic of Cancer, into Southeast Asia from China and into the African tropics from Europe, both groups tracking the ecological settings to which they had adapted in Eurasia.

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

I'd have to disagree that the continents were in any different positions even 20 million years ago. most everything was in the same place it is now, within a couple hundred kilometers.
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/Mio.jpg

A couple of hundred kilometers, expanding ice caps, shrinking oceans, and a few new mountain ranges can make all the difference in the world.      

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

I do thank you for the other quotes. I did not know all of that.

No problem man, you have educated me plenty of times.  

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

But even temperatures of todays range would be "cold" to a chimp or gorilla. 14C is like 60F, and is much cooler then the average found at the equator. For an ape to survive in even Todays Germany or the Balkans, they would need to be able to survive cold winters.

Thus if you define cold as anywhere that winter gets below freezing then we could easily say that these 15M years ago apes lived in cold environements.

I disagree and everything the experts say disagrees with this statement as well.  

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

Yet they are adaptations. Adaptations to cold. I might argue I never said that there were lots of apes that lived on glaciers and ate ice, only that there were lots of apes adapted to cold(er) climates.

Again all the quotes I have been posting disagree. When the climate changed from tropical/subtropical the apes died out or moved out because they were not adapted to survive in temperate regions.  

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

It again goes to the definition of cold climate. You apparently are thinking Arctic and I am thinking Northern Temperate/Subarctic.

No I am thinking temperate 4 season climates.

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

Clearly these apes existed in Northern Europe and thrived there for millions of years. And you would argue that there was no winter and no freezing weather there, apparently?

Yes I would argue that any place south of mid Europe was tropical or subtropical and did not have freezing winters.  

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

Also that the Homo Erectus that wandered Europe and northern China must have used technology to survive, when you have no real proof that they needed it other then that they used it (fire). Has there been any H. Erectus clothing found?

H. Erectus remains were found near Zhoukoudian in China. A location that is at a latitude equal to Northern Korea. A place that is very cold in the winters. Was 800,000 years ago also a very warm period?

H. Erectus remains were found near Dmanisi in Georgia (Europe). Another area that is known for very cold winters. Could the unclothed H.Erectus have survived with only fire?

Could a modern human survive in a Korean winter or a Caucasus winter? Unlikely. So we have to assume they were tougher and more cold adapted then a modern human, who is very much more cold tolerant then any of the other great apes still living.

The fact is we don't know if they had clothing or not, neither one of us can say for certain, but IMO I think they must have worn something to protect themselves during the winter.

Edited by evancj, 12 October 2011 - 01:56 AM.

[DieChecker]

evancj, on 12 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

I don't know how I can make it any clearer that Europe, Eurasia, and South East Asia were DID NOT have temperate climates back then.

You make a good arguement for Europe being Sub-tropical. And though some of these ape fossils were found in northern-ish Europe, I'd guess that it would have still been pretty warm and the apes could have lived in the lowlands that had as much snow and ice as Sumatra.

Quote

A couple of hundred kilometers, expanding ice caps, shrinking oceans, and a few new mountain ranges can make all the difference in the world.

That appears to be true.

Quote

I disagree and everything the experts say disagrees with this statement as well.

Yet it did say northern Europe was in the 16C range (60F), which is 7C (16F) more then the mean average in Germany today. I served 2 years in the Army in Germany, so I know the winters there. That 16C probably counts as sub-tropical, yet also we need to consider that the further north you go the more dramatic the seasons. These apes did see Winter. So I'd still guess that these European apes were living on the edge of what they could stand.

Quote

Again all the quotes I have been posting disagree. When the climate changed from tropical/subtropical the apes died out or moved out because they were not adapted to survive in temperate regions.

Could it not be that it was the food source that was not adapted to cold, rather then a problem with the apes not adapting to colder climates? They needed a lot of food and were primarily vegetarians, right? When their food moved, they moved with it. It is not like the mangos and bananas adapted to the cold, but the apes fled.

Quote

The fact is we don't know if they had clothing or not, neither one of us can say for certain, but IMO I think they must have worn something to protect themselves during the winter.

I suppose that is true also. There is no way of knowing. Unless they somehow find remains and clothes in some cave someday. That would be cool.

Even the early Homo species are only suspected of using fire. AFAIK there has not been a definate Homo Erectus firepit found. At least not further back then 300,000 years. And those same experts always seem to portray H.Erectus as nekid in their museum exibits.  

[psyche101]

DieChecker, on 11 October 2011 - 01:49 AM, said:

Yet they are adaptations. Adaptations to cold. I might argue I never said that there were lots of apes that lived on glaciers and ate ice, only that there were lots of apes adapted to cold(er) climates.

Unless Todd C. Rae is right, if that is the case, it would seem we made our own adaptions (Shelter Clothing Heating) ourselves. Considering the physiology of peoples from warmer climates, I think he has a point here.

[DieChecker]

psyche101, on 12 October 2011 - 06:56 AM, said:

Unless Todd C. Rae is right, if that is the case, it would seem we made our own adaptions (Shelter Clothing Heating) ourselves. Considering the physiology of peoples from warmer climates, I think he has a point here.

That could very well be true.

[evancj]

psyche101, on 12 October 2011 - 06:56 AM, said:

Unless Todd C. Rae is right, if that is the case, it would seem we made our own adaptions (Shelter Clothing Heating) ourselves. Considering the physiology of peoples from warmer climates, I think he has a point here.

No doubt in my mind this is the case;

Quote

http://www.episodes....312/207-210.pdf

6) Late glacial expansion of human populations: colonisation
and re-colonisation

Studies of a substantial part of the Eurasian late Palaeolithic
after the last glacial maximum (ca. 21–15 ka) are primarily about the
re-colonisation of areas previously too cold and/or ice-bound to
inhabit. The re-colonisation of northern Europe is now documented
in enormous detail (see Figure 3), and can be plotted with a resolution
of only a few centuries. The re-colonisation of areas in Asia that
were abandoned in the coldest parts of MIS 2 are known only
sketchily, notably the Tibetan Plateau (first colonised 30–40 ka,
almost certainly abandoned in MIS 2 and then re-colonised by 12 ka;
see Madsen et al., 2001; Yuan et al., 2007) and Siberia. The latter
area was first colonised in MIS 3, abandoned, and then swiftly recolonised
by groups that possessed the necessary clothing, hunting,
fishing and trapping technologies, abilities to move across snow and
endure extreme cold (Goebel, 1999). Some of these groups probably
reached North America near the end of the Pleistocene across
Beringia, the subcontinent now submerged by the Bering Straits (see
e.g., Dalton, 2003); alternatively, some groups from western Europe
may have reached the eastern coast of North America across the
North Atlantic pack ice (see e.g., Bradley and Stanford, 2004).

The above paper is a very interesting and informative read.

Quote

http://www.pnas.org/...07/13/5762.full

The first hominins began to expand from their original gallery forests in East Africa into other habitats, and their diet became increasingly carnivorous. This migration into other ecosystems indicates that behaviorally and technologically these early hominins were not limited to a specific distribution of resources or climatic conditions. At Vallparadís, paleoenvironmental analyses show that the local environmental conditions varied, especially in terms of rainfall. This evidence is supported by the climate models obtained from the marine, continental, and palynological records (42, 43). Nevertheless, the hominin populations of Vallparadís faced these changing climatic conditions and their effect on the prehistoric landscapes and fauna (44). The most decisive factor regarding the expansion and adaptation of hominins outside Africa was probably their carnivorous diet rather than any cultural, ecological, and even physical features (36). In the Mediterranean temperate ecosystems, hominins must have depended on animal resources for subsistence at certain times of the year.

Quote

http://www.historywo...?historyid=ab10

Unlike bones and stone tools, skin and fur do not easily survive in the ground. So it is impossible to put a date on man's first experiments with costume. However, the bones of large animals at human sites prove that they were butchered and eaten, and stone tools were well suited to the scraping of skins. It seems inconceivable that Peking Man did not from time to time, on a cold night, wrap some simple form of fur cloak around his shoulders.

Read more: http://www.historywo...0#ixzz1aia3jtLT

Quote

http://humanorigins....esearch/effects

If key human adaptations evolved in response to selection pressure by a specific environment, we would expect those adaptations to be especially suited to that habitat. Hominin fossils would be found in those environments and not present in different types of habitat.

H. Erectus lived in climates ranging from temperate to tropical so he couldn't have been specifically cold adapted or he would have only lived in the temperate zones.

Quote

http://www.athenapub.../13intro-he.htm

13erectmp.GIF

[Fig. : Distribution of Homo erectus sites]

Also note not even H. Erectus, (the cold adapted ape that some believe could survive freezing winters naked and without fire or shelter) lived in Northern Europe.

Attached Files

•  13erectmp.GIF   35.65K   2 downloads

[evancj]

DieChecker, on 12 October 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

Yet it did say northern Europe was in the 16C range (60F), which is 7C (16F) more then the mean average in Germany today. I served 2 years in the Army in Germany, so I know the winters there. That 16C probably counts as sub-tropical, yet also we need to consider that the further north you go the more dramatic the seasons. These apes did see Winter. So I'd still guess that these European apes were living on the edge of what they could stand.

The farthest Northern Miocene ape fossil I could find referenced was around Paris. Not even close to Northern Europe.

Do you have references to some more Northern ones?
    

DieChecker, on 12 October 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

Could it not be that it was the food source that was not adapted to cold, rather then a problem with the apes not adapting to colder climates? They needed a lot of food and were primarily vegetarians, right? When their food moved, they moved with it. It is not like the mangos and bananas adapted to the cold, but the apes fled.

I wonder why you cant accept the fact that apes evolved in the tropics and are tropical animals? Even we modern human apes are tropical animals regardless of where we live, or where born. None of us could survive the sustained cold without without clothing, shelter, or technology.

BTW aren't you the one who argues that there is more than enough food in winter time temperate North America to support a giant ape? If that is true now why would it not be true then (post Miocene) especially in the relatively mild post Miocene climate of southern Europe?  

DieChecker, on 12 October 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

Even the early Homo species are only suspected of using fire. AFAIK there has not been a definate Homo Erectus firepit found. At least not further back then 300,000 years. And those same experts always seem to portray H.Erectus as nekid in their museum exibits.  

See my reply to psyche's comment above this one.

[psyche101]

evancj, on 14 October 2011 - 02:40 AM, said:

No doubt in my mind this is the case;


The above paper is a very interesting and informative read.



H. Erectus lived in climates ranging from temperate to tropical so he couldn't have been specifically cold adapted or he would have only lived in the temperate zones.



Also note not even H. Erectus, (the cold adapted ape that some believe could survive freezing winters naked and without fire or shelter) lived in Northern Europe.

Indeed, and I am thoroughly convinced that you are right. Excellent links, thank for posting them. I was running with the older adage of Neanderthal evolving traits like a wide nose to adapt to live in colder climate, but the good Doctors information is sound, we do see the exact same structure in hotter climates. And it advantages them. I am probably more amazed that something so obvious escaped so many of us for so long. It was always thought that the huge shnoz that the Moose sports supported the Neanderthal theory, but I think that ended up as having more to do with the underwater plants they eat.

Well, some of us! But that puts a nail in the coffin for the last cold adapted Ape, I could think of. In every other case, hominids have adapted the environment to suit them with clothing and shelter.

[U. N.Owen]

The conference and expedition is excellent news for cryptozoology, and politically as well, for that matter.
There is a wealth of serious evidence around for the existence of undiscovered hominids in the Russian Federation and central Asia: much of this is not available to a Westerner owing to translation problems, and ongoing cultural issues.
However, the best serious introduction to the subject that I know of is from Myra Shackley, a Doctor in Archeology who travelled to Outer Mongolia to do research on this. As I understand it she concluded that there were AT LEAST two phenomena: (1)Man-like apes (possibly gigantopithecus ancestors) and (2)Much more human-like tribes of `primitive` men (possibly Neanderthal)who use tools and even wear clothes, of sorts.Both were (are) probably dying out. Her book:

Shackley, Myra: `Wildmen: Yeti, Sasquatch and the Neanderthal Enigma` (Thames and Hudson, Sussex, 1983)ISBN 0 500 01298 9

It will be out of print, but still gettable, if you are willing to search around. (NB Not ALL of the best material on this topic is necessarily on-line!)