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Reincarnation


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#1    Taita

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 05:46 PM

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

For a very long time I understood it to be deviltry as was taught in my church (Southern Baptist) growing up.  Later I noticed Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. Older Jewish books mention several instances of reincarnation and as far as I can find, it isn't regarded as a purely Satan inspired act of deception but more like sooth saying. That it is dangerous possibly and therefore forbidden or to be seen as a likely deceit.  

As it stood promenantley on the Godly side of Christianity and Judaism, the same with soothsaying and dream interpretation, I can't see it as evil in nature.

Mark


#2    keven3

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 06:27 PM

View PostTaita, on 12 October 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

For a very long time I understood it to be deviltry as was taught in my church (Southern Baptist) growing up.  Later I noticed Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. Older Jewish books mention several instances of reincarnation and as far as I can find, it isn't regarded as a purely Satan inspired act of deception but more like sooth saying. That it is dangerous possibly and therefore forbidden or to be seen as a likely deceit.  

As it stood promenantley on the Godly side of Christianity and Judaism, the same with soothsaying and dream interpretation, I can't see it as evil in nature.

Mark

Reincarnation may occur in certain contexts such as what you mentioned, but as a whole I reject the notion because if you believe in reincarnation you are essentially saying that Christ had no purpose to suffer and die on the cross for you.

He was humiliated, tortured, and executed soley to allow mankind to be able to spend eternity with God.

The idea of reincarnation is that you will eventually reach your own Godhood through multiple lives on earth. Not only don't you need Christ to have suffered and died for you, but you yourself will eventually uncover your own state of being God.

Take care,

Keven


#3    Ryu

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 06:29 PM

Well..you can think of reincarnation as merely a cycle in energy.

If you look at electricity, or example, you have a range of  "positive" and a "negative" in which the electrical bolt cycles between. Neither charge is good or bad..it is just the nature of electricity.

If souls do exist then it is really no different, the soul in its energy form can be thought of as being in the "positive" charge and the body as the "negative" charge. As a side note, this whole "positive" versus "negative" is not meant to denote good or bad..it is just a cyclical thing.

Anyway, the soul simply oscillates between the two states only each soul has a different range, frequency and strength in which it oscillates.
Now whether reincarnation is a valid, scientifically proven fact is another thing altogether.


#4    Taita

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 06:33 PM

View Postkeven3, on 12 October 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

Reincarnation may occur in certain contexts such as what you mentioned, but as a whole I reject the notion because if you believe in reincarnation you are essentially saying that Christ had no purpose to suffer and die on the cross for you.

He was humiliated, tortured, and executed soley to allow mankind to be able to spend eternity with God.

The idea of reincarnation is that you will eventually reach your own Godhood through multiple lives on earth. Not only don't you need Christ to have suffered and died for you, but you yourself will eventually uncover your own state of being God.

Take care,

Keven

I hadn't heard that theory of reincarnation before, at least not exactly like that, and it is an interesting one.

Is this meaning that enlightenment, the end of things like Buddists reincarnation as I understand it, is equal to becoming a god?  I never made that connection either.

A very good reply, thank you! I have some studying to do on enlightenment and attaining godlike status now as relates to reincarnation.

Mark


#5    keven3

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 06:43 PM

View PostTaita, on 12 October 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

I hadn't heard that theory of reincarnation before, at least not exactly like that, and it is an interesting one.

Is this meaning that enlightenment, the end of things like Buddists reincarnation as I understand it, is equal to becoming a god?  I never made that connection either.

A very good reply, thank you! I have some studying to do on enlightenment and attaining godlike status now as relates to reincarnation.

Mark
You are welcome.

In my opinion becoming enlightened is equal to attaining oneness with God; the process is to take away all of one's pseudo self to reveal one's eternal Self.  Ones eternal Self is either simply "energy" or it is "God."

Take care,
Keven

Edited by keven3, 12 October 2011 - 06:44 PM.


#6    Purifier

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:05 PM

View PostTaita, on 12 October 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

Where does everyone stand on this possibility and why?

For a very long time I understood it to be deviltry as was taught in my church (Southern Baptist) growing up.  Later I noticed Jesus said John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. Older Jewish books mention several instances of reincarnation and as far as I can find, it isn't regarded as a purely Satan inspired act of deception but more like sooth saying. That it is dangerous possibly and therefore forbidden or to be seen as a likely deceit.  

As it stood promenantley on the Godly side of Christianity and Judaism, the same with soothsaying and dream interpretation, I can't see it as evil in nature.

Mark




There are two reasons for the "possibility" and the "why", in which each of these go hand in hand with one another.....

The golden rule  (+) plus Karma (=) equals Reincarnation.

What you do in this life to another and yourself (good or evil),  developes the result of Karma in each life. Hence the philosophical rule, the universal rule, what we today call the "The golden rule" - "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."

The result of Karma is the effect of your actions in each life, until you learn what not to do and what you should do, as it is ingrained on your soul from each lifetime, through your moral compass.

Hence the reason for Reincarnation, because it would take you more than one lifetime, to learn to not to give in to nature or the elements of flesh itself. Once you conquer nature and the flesh itself, you become immortal in a perfect body and death has no hold on you. Hence the accomplishment of Jesus (Yeshua) the Christ.


The reason the early Roman Church fathers edited the bible, concerning Reincarnation (although they obvisouly missed a few texts), was because they did not want to give the Pagan groups a reason to continue on sinning. If they taught you or forced it upon you, that you only had one life to get it right, then you would supposedly straighten up and be virtuous. But the Roman Church fathers either didn't account for, or didn't understand the concept of Karma, or they just wanted to control the masses through fear, during that period in history. So the Law of Karma became lost to most of humanity.

Edited by Purifier, 12 October 2011 - 07:13 PM.

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#7    Taita

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:21 PM

View Postkeven3, on 12 October 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

You are welcome.

In my opinion becoming enlightened is equal to attaining oneness with God; the process is to take away all of one's pseudo self to reveal one's eternal Self.  Ones eternal Self is either simply "energy" or it is "God."

Take care,
Keven

Accepted. Now, how is enlightenment different from the Christian belief(by many or most) that on death you know all the secrets of the universe, are infinitely happy and exist as perfect beings? Even in Revelation, eternity is attained and if that end time is believed in, there is no conflict, each has fantastic glory and riches, existing as some type of perfect spiritual being.

Did you know that God was said to recycle souls that wished to wanted to try again for various reasons? They were in Gods coffer of souls to be placed in children at birth, so some new, some recycled. The stories involving this coffer did not proclude children born with out souls, although most born this way never breathed. Some however became animals very soon and only resembled people. These had animal souls to allow them to live, rather than human ones(it is a relative recent belief in Christianity that only people have souls) and sometimes various animal physical aspects as well.

I am not discounting what you presented. Just presenting a possibility that there could be other reasons to be reincarnated, even within the already established framework of Christianity/Judaism, than a stepwise developement to being a god.


#8    rashore

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:23 PM

I believe in reincarnation. It kind of goes with Ryus line of thought. I think our souls gather energy through lessons and experiences, and after the corporal form dies, your soul is full of energy and some of it goes off to be part of the universe, some of it stays together of your soul. Death is a time to see your other incorporeal loved ones again, shake off the excess energy of the lifetime, get ready for the next lessons to be learned. It's a natural cycle. Kind of a super simplified version of how I think about it :)

Though I don't believe in the teachings of the bible in general, I think the story of Christ on the cross has extremely valuable lessons. The lesson that a soul that does not even know you is willing to suffer for your benefit. It's easy to suffer for someone you know and love, it's difficult to do it for people you have no connection to. It's also a lesson in acceptance, to receive with grace forgiveness even when you know you did nothing to deserve it. And it's a lesson of being willing to suffer yourself for the sake of others even when you don't know them, simply because it's the right thing to do.


#9    Taita

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:36 PM

View PostPurifier, on 12 October 2011 - 07:05 PM, said:

There are two reasons for the "possibility" and the "why", in which each of these go hand in hand with one another.....

The golden rule  (+) plus Karma (=) equals Reincarnation.

What you do in this life to another and yourself (good or evil),  developes the result of Karma in each life. Hence the philosophical rule, the universal rule, what we today call the "The golden rule" - "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."

The result of Karma is the effect of your actions in each life, until you learn what not to do and what you should do, as it is ingrained on your soul from each lifetime, through your moral compass.

Hence the reason for Reincarnation, because it would take you more than one lifetime, to learn to not to give in to nature or the elements of flesh itself. Once you conquer nature and the flesh itself, you become immortal in a perfect body and death has no hold on you. Hence the accomplishment of Jesus (Yeshua) the Christ.


The reason the early Roman Church fathers edited the bible, concerning Reincarnation (although they obvisouly missed a few texts), was because they did not want to give the Pagan groups a reason to continue on sinning. If they taught you or forced it upon you, that you only had one life to get it right, then you would supposedly straighten up and be virtuous. But the Roman Church fathers either didn't account for, or didn't understand the concept of Karma, or they just wanted to control the masses through fear, during that period in history. So the Law of Karma became lost to most of humanity.

Another great post!
  Applying various aspects of Eastern philosphy to what decidely did happen, redacting original Biblical texts or entire Books, and how it may have changed Christianity in general in many ways.

I am afraid I have no idea how to test that overall theory though. It is entirely plausable however and is in line with what we know the early church, specifically from 300AD to 700AD, did with their power. I do know, and it should be pointed out, the greatest changes were the result of the creation of the Canon and the several revisions, additions and deletions made from about 140AD. These cause rifts in the Church and those splitting off kept the older version of Canon. *In this way the Book of Enoch was not lost as being redundant to Books Moses is accredited with authoring.

Mark

Edited by Taita, 12 October 2011 - 07:38 PM.


#10    Lumpino

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:18 AM

I believe in reincarnation too. But, I think, it can be according old mysteries. That te future life is  created of our thoughts too. And of an our knowledge. It is a principle of a spiritual alchemy, see The secret of the Golden Flower by Richard Willhelm, translantion chinese taosist alchemny book, or ancient mysteries, see Iamblichus, Theurgy.
I'm going this way and it starts with my help greatly in this life too.

Edited by Lumpino, 15 October 2011 - 06:26 AM.


#11    RedSquirrel

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:44 AM

I am a believer in Christ, but at the end the same answer applies to most "afterlife" questions... I think I'll have to die to know. At this time, I have no reason to believe in re-incarnation, but that is just my view. I sure don't want to come back ;)

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#12    konginasong

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 01:00 PM

I'm a believer in reincarnation. To be honest, I believe that most cultures do, and as Dr Brian Weiss (a non-Asian, non-Buddhist) writes about it in his book - Many Lives, Many Masters - his take on reincarnation sounds VERY Buddhist... however, he uses Western terminology.

E.g. He refers to those with a karmic connection with each other as being "soul mates". He also refers to the Buddhist definition of the "mind" as the "soul".

http://www.4shared.c...ers-Brian-.html

Do check out these videos as well, they're really good - http://blog.tsemtulk...must-watch.html

Just my 2 cents!!


#13    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 01:24 PM

In regards to reincarnation in Buddhism, it doesn't exist. Reincarnation involves a soul and is more akin to the Hindu tradition. Buddhism concerns itself with rebirth which involves a transfer of conciousness upon death unless enlightenment has occured. There is no belief in a soul in Buddhism. In regards to becoming a god upon enlightenment that's just plain wrong as well in regards to any traditional Buddhist sect be it based upon the Mahayana or Therevada traditions. The existence of heavens, hells, or even the state of being a god are all possible results of rebirth, and have nothing to do with Enlightenment or Nirvana. They are just another form of existence and a part of the same cycle of rebirth and death that ceases upon enlightenment.

Now, I'm not stating that anyone's beliefs concerning reincarnation or rebirth here are wrong. I'm just clarifying some mispreceptions in the thread in regards to Buddhism.

Thanks for reading!!


#14    Taita

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:50 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 18 October 2011 - 01:24 PM, said:

In regards to reincarnation in Buddhism, it doesn't exist. Reincarnation involves a soul and is more akin to the Hindu tradition. Buddhism concerns itself with rebirth which involves a transfer of conciousness upon death unless enlightenment has occured. There is no belief in a soul in Buddhism. In regards to becoming a god upon enlightenment that's just plain wrong as well in regards to any traditional Buddhist sect be it based upon the Mahayana or Therevada traditions. The existence of heavens, hells, or even the state of being a god are all possible results of rebirth, and have nothing to do with Enlightenment or Nirvana. They are just another form of existence and a part of the same cycle of rebirth and death that ceases upon enlightenment.

Now, I'm not stating that anyone's beliefs concerning reincarnation or rebirth here are wrong. I'm just clarifying some mispreceptions in the thread in regards to Buddhism.

Thanks for reading!!
\
Thank you, I am sure this helped several people. I had to look up Buddhism beliefs and have been having a diffucult time understanding what is being presented. I did however, not think enlightenment was like becoming a god or merging with a god/God. It may sound silly but, it sounded like when you reach enlightenment you actually merge with everything yet stay a seperate entity as well or rather maintain your awareness,  :blush:  if that makes sense.  
  
One thing is certain, I am absolutely certain that I really don't understand Buddhism.

Thanks for the reply and clarifications.

Mark

Edited by Taita, 18 October 2011 - 03:50 PM.


#15    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 05:15 PM

View PostTaita, on 18 October 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

\
Thank you, I am sure this helped several people. I had to look up Buddhism beliefs and have been having a diffucult time understanding what is being presented. I did however, not think enlightenment was like becoming a god or merging with a god/God. It may sound silly but, it sounded like when you reach enlightenment you actually merge with everything yet stay a seperate entity as well or rather maintain your awareness,  :blush:  if that makes sense.  
  
One thing is certain, I am absolutely certain that I really don't understand Buddhism.

Thanks for the reply and clarifications.

Mark

If anyone claims they can fully explain Enlightenment or Nirvana, then they're selling something lol. Buddhist beliefs can vary greatly depending upon the region in which it is practiced. The central core of all of them are the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. Everything else involves attempting to realize and apply these concepts in your life from moment to moment and can vary greatly from culture to culture but are no less "Buddhist" than any other group.


Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit.

Take care!





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