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The Saami of Lapland Their Place in the World


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#1    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 04:13 AM

Since I'm not really into Fey, Cloud People or Sitchin I'm finding the board a bit boring so am going to indulge in a new topic I find highly interesting.

The Saami people of Lapland and their place in history.

If you don't know who they are: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Sami_people

This is an amazing Blog dedicated to them and researching their history, I really recommend taking a look to get an understanding of them: http://saamiblog.blogspot.com/

This is Wiki Sami Shamanism: http://en.wikipedia..../Sami_shamanism Keep in mind how much their culture has been distorted by incoming and more powerful groups around them and I'll go into this more later, I have taken the time to completely disect the mythology between Sami and Finnish, more on that later.

An example: Radien-attje is often portrayed as the main figure in a Trinity, which besides him, consists by the Raedieahkka or Radien-akka (Maadteraahka, the superior mother) and their son Radien-pardne. There are critics who claim, that this Trinity is a consequence of the meeting with the Christian religion, and that it is a match to the God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. If this is the case, it is interesting, that the Sami have replaced the Holy Spirit with a wife.
Interesting...? Sure is, I hardly doubt the Saami were actually replacing anything they had originally, only changing as people intruded on them. They had a Maadteraahka, a Mother, she wasn't missing. One should really wonder about who was taking who's lore and changing them...

Posted Image

My own view on them is extreme, I think they are the holders of all the ancient spiritual knowledge of shamanism. They have Noaide's who can communicate with the spirits (Gods) and have possibly been, or at least the ancestors of them before the Asian intrusion, in the Arctic Circle for over 10,000 years.

Living under the Pole Star in the Lap of the Gods. I'll point out Santa lives in Lapland with the Saami and the reindeer. This is not a co-incidence imo. The only people worshipping the Sun were those who needed it's arrival after 6 months of darkness. It's the land beyond Hyperborea. They possess the mythology of the World Tree that reaches up to the Pole Star, an ancient concept.

Starting at the start, I'll give a scenario I find to be logical and can find nothing to really invalidate it, although I'm sure cormac or someone can fix that for me.  :rolleyes:

My own opinion is that the Saami were originally part of the Magdalenian Culture of France and after the LGM they moved North with the reindeer.

Reindeer lived all over Europe once, when it was very cold, then they retreated North and I suspect the herders moved with them, and stayed there. Too logical I know.

Since they have a history of the labyrinth, it should not be ruled out how far they took this symbol with them. Recent genetics has shown they possess a connection to ancient Berbers c. 9000BP.
Posted Image
http://saamiblog.blogspot.com/

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 October 2011 - 04:44 AM.

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#2    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 04:48 AM

From the Humans in North America thread:

Quote

OK cormac, thanks for the response, I don't think any of it negates anything I said already. They originated in Europe, yes. A male population came in. I'm stubborn sometimes. It might seem I'm not listening but I am, I see holes. Anyway, because this has gone way off topic I started my own Saami topic if you have anything to add there.

You cannot prove they dominated the Komsa Culture, because it appears they WERE part of this culture. There is a continuation through to the Saami. I don't know of any DNA or anything from this Komsa Culture that they tested. If you would like to reply again, maybe you could answer in my New Topic on the Saami to prevent getting OT here.

There's no evidence for a male population coming in to dominate the Sami and take them further north. What there is, is evidence that the Sami and Berber split c.9000 BP. Each going its own way.

Nobody dominated the Komsa Culture, it was incorporated into the Fosna Culture as a continuation thereof IIRC. And one would expect some aspect of the Fosna Culture to ingrain itself into the newly arrived Sami Culture. Particularly over thousands of years and where it's known that Sami merged with the native Z and D5 mtDNA haplogroups. This DOES NOT make the Sami any older than 9000 BP, nor indigenous to Northern Europe. And off-topic for a moment, it DOESN'T validate the OLB either. Every such attempt backfires.

While many claims about them have more holes than Swiss Cheese, they are an interesting people.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#3    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 04:53 AM

This is what I made up to clarify the shamanic spirits as they saw them. Note the difference between some Sami and some Finnish ones, especially Ukko and Tiermes.

Posted Image

This is their concept - the spirit of Waralden Olmai/Radien Attje, who I will shorten to Wralda for the sake of this thread, was the World - from it a pole or pillar went to the sky and inseminated the Pole Star, the Mother. This was celebrated each Autumn.

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 October 2011 - 05:08 AM.

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#4    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 05:42 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 October 2011 - 04:48 AM, said:

From the Humans in North America thread:



There's no evidence for a male population coming in to dominate the Sami and take them further north. What there is, is evidence that the Sami and Berber split c.9000 BP. Each going its own way.

Nobody dominated the Komsa Culture, it was incorporated into the Fosna Culture as a continuation thereof IIRC. And one would expect some aspect of the Fosna Culture to ingrain itself into the newly arrived Sami Culture. Particularly over thousands of years and where it's known that Sami merged with the native Z and D5 mtDNA haplogroups. This DOES NOT make the Sami any older than 9000 BP, nor indigenous to Northern Europe. And off-topic for a moment, it DOESN'T validate the OLB either. Every such attempt backfires.

While many claims about them have more holes than Swiss Cheese, they are an interesting people.

cormac

It might be you are not understanding me, which I know can be hard sometimes....

1. I never said the male influx took them further north. I already think they were in the Northern parts when the intrusion came in.

2. I understand about the Berber split prior to 9000BP and how the group that split came from what would not have been 'Saami' as such.

3. I speak in terms of the people prior to them being designated Saami as still of the Saami group that formed the Saami core.

4. I never said they dominated the Komsa culture as I believe the cultures just developed and not changed from intrusion at that time.

5. My estimate on the male Eastern population coming into the Nordic countries is around 3000-2000BC.

6. I never said they were completely indigenous to Scandinavia, I said they moved up North from Western Central Europe c. 10,000-9,000BC with the change in Europes weather.

7. I can't believe we agree on something, yay, they sure are interesting regardless what my own thoughts are on them.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#5    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 06:25 AM

This appears to substantiate my idea their original language was NOT Finno-Ugric.

The Finns and the Sámi maintained their separate language identity even at a time when other Uralic speakers were losing their language to the Indo-Europeans.  This still leaves the crucial question that asks ‘how and when did the Finns and the Sámi begin speaking related languages in the first place?’  This is one of the bigger controversies in Scandinavian history.  There is argument as to whether the Finns and the Sámi “arrived in their present day locations either as a still undifferentiated ethnolinguistic group or as linguistically and ethnically separate people. [14]   Genetic and linguistic data of 1995 seemed to show that the Finns arrived in Sámi territory a mere 2,000 to 4,000 years ago, while at the same time adopting the Sámi way of speaking.  This idea was revolutionary.  The Finns had always been thought of as the more dominant group but now new theories claiming that it was the Finns who got their language from the Sámi have started to arise.  The Sámi, for first time, appear not to have always been the weaker minority. [15]  

Sajantila’s ten-year old theory, though empowering to the Sámi, has been suggested to be somewhat false in many of its aspects, as recently as 2002.  The new theory, using mitochondrial DNA testing, states that the Finns did not arrive in Sámiland only a short 3,000 years ago but rather came out of the Sámi themselves. When adding genetic evidence to the Baltic-Finnish and the Sámi language relationship, it appears that the two groups did descend from one single genetic and linguistic population, with the Finns diverging because of Baltic and Germanic agricultural influences; however, because of the distinctness between the two groups, the common ancestor may have divided as long ago as 23,000 BP and then reunited at around 8,500 BP.  After the divergence of the Finns from the Sámi, the Sámi tended to have offspring within their own group; however, the influence from the Baltic and Germanic people caused the Finns to intermix with other Indo-Europeans, making them more genetically similar to the Europeans than the Sámi are. [16]

It makes sense that the Sámi should be closely tied to the Finns, if at one time they were the same group, even if this did take place many thousands of years ago. They originated from Europe but spoke a Uralic language among themselves.  However, if the most recent data is true, the two groups seem to be genetically and linguistically distinct enough to allow them to finally be studied as separate groups, so there is an illogical sense to the Sámi and Finns link as well.  So it seems that all the pieces of the Sámi puzzle have almost been put into place; however, with a history as long as theirs, pieces are always bound to be missing.
For example, in Sámiland and throughout Scandinavia, there still exists an obvious residue of an even more ancient unknown language than Uralic in the region.  Many of the names of rivers and lakes have no linguistic roots. [17]   This mystery still remains to this day and may possibly never be uncovered, but one must not forget how historically wrong science had been about the history of the Sámi.  There is still a large amount on new information to be uncovered about the Sámi’s very ancient past.

http://www.utexas.ed...ist/genetic.htm

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#6    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 06:32 AM

Just for interest.

Posted Image

The Sami are the one with the most green. The yellowish colour is the Asiatic element. The maroon at the top is the small amount of DNA that is the same as Native Americans.
I didn't think the writing would show but it does.

You can find the actual chart here. http://blogs.discove...north-the-sami/

There is a definite “eastern” affinity among the Sami. Interestingly, it is broken down into a major and minor component. The major one (yellow) is what is found among the Han, while the minor one (maroon) resembles Native Americans. The natural interpretation for this is that what one is seeing is the shadow of the circumpolar northern Eurasian populations which spanned eastern Europe to Siberia. In comparison with other European populations the Sami affinity with Russians is clear, though interestingly they lack the “blue” component which peaks in northwest South Asian populations, which the Russians have, and Sardinians and French Basque lack.

They lack the blue component, as do Sardinians and French Basque. There is a tiny amount of it.

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 October 2011 - 06:40 AM.

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#7    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 06:40 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 26 October 2011 - 05:42 AM, said:

It might be you are not understanding me, which I know can be hard sometimes....

1. I never said the male influx took them further north. I already think they were in the Northern parts when the intrusion came in.

2. I understand about the Berber split prior to 9000BP and how the group that split came from what would not have been 'Saami' as such.

3. I speak in terms of the people prior to them being designated Saami as still of the Saami group that formed the Saami core.

4. I never said they dominated the Komsa culture as I believe the cultures just developed and not changed from intrusion at that time.

5. My estimate on the male Eastern population coming into the Nordic countries is around 3000-2000BC.

6. I never said they were completely indigenous to Scandinavia, I said they moved up North from Western Central Europe c. 10,000-9,000BC with the change in Europes weather.

7. I can't believe we agree on something, yay, they sure are interesting regardless what my own thoughts are on them.


1) And how does that work, genetically, as the males of any group rarely ever go very far without their women? In the least we should see a reduction of either mtDNA V or U5 (particularly U5b1b, which is Sami), yet we don't. Both groups make up the bulk of Sami genetics.

2) Good, we're making progress.

3) Ok.

4) Intrusion by whom, specifically? And based on what evidence?

5) Evidence for the Sami U5b1b dates to c.8600 +/- 2400 BP, so we'll say 6600 BC. So what evidence is there for ANY intrusion of another culture 3600+ years later. Also, that apparently their link with Haplogroup Z appears to have taken place c.2700 BP so for several thousand years their matrilineal lines weren't significantly affected by any outside influence. How is this possible?

6) And I've shown were the evidence suggests that 10,000 - 9000 BC is wrong, since they didn't split from the Berbers until 9000 BP (7000 BC).

7) Yes, they are.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#8    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 07:21 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 October 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

1) And how does that work, genetically, as the males of any group rarely ever go very far without their women? In the least we should see a reduction of either mtDNA V or U5 (particularly U5b1b, which is Sami), yet we don't. Both groups make up the bulk of Sami genetics.

2) Good, we're making progress.

3) Ok.

4) Intrusion by whom, specifically? And based on what evidence?

5) Evidence for the Sami U5b1b dates to c.8600 +/- 2400 BP, so we'll say 6600 BC. So what evidence is there for ANY intrusion of another culture 3600+ years later. Also, that apparently their link with Haplogroup Z appears to have taken place c.2700 BP so for several thousand years their matrilineal lines weren't significantly affected by any outside influence. How is this possible?

6) And I've shown were the evidence suggests that 10,000 - 9000 BC is wrong, since they didn't split from the Berbers until 9000 BP (7000 BC).

7) Yes, they are.

cormac
1. I beg to differ. Warrior groups who travelled were more than likely only men, it's well known from myths and stories women were left at home for even more than 10 years while men were off, history gives us numerous large wars where men were off for very, very long periods without women, or their wives and families anyway.
Earlier in time even, as a woman, I know I'd rather be sitting around the warm fire sewing up a seal skin coat than off at war or hunting, which generally is man's game - we produce, not kill. Also, I'm really just going off this:
Anthropologists have been studying the Sami people for hundreds of years for their assumed physical and cultural differences from the rest of Europeans. Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal lineages of the Sámi people are the haplogroups V and the U5b, ancient in Europe. By contrast, the most common paternal lineage among the Sami indicates an Asian origin, who may represent a Uralic-speaking people.

The paternal group indicates an Asian origin, so what else would you make of that than a group of males entering into the (I'll call them) proto-Saami populace? Only after they came in do we get what we term the Saami imo, which genetics shows us today. This links to Q5. The Saami became so at the time the Asian male population came in.

4. No intrusion by anyone. The Sami show a continuation from this culture archaeologically.

5. Why does this indicate this is when the male Asian group might have come in? Evidence for the Sami U5b1b dates to c.8600 +/- 2400 BP, so we'll say 6600 BC.
Is it because the U5b1b has this MALE Asiatic element in it? I'm not sure on haplogroup evidence, the evidence I had read about was old, the IE language coming in with them c. 3000-2000BC, which may have been the point of an incoming Eastern people but I'm still out on this one really. I'm accepting when need be and will look at this point some more.

6. 7000BC some kind of split happened, you say...eg? Group A was roaming, from then came Group B and C, B being Sami, C being Berber - so Group A could not be Saami?

If this is what you mean, I say Group A could still be a proto-Saami group and seen as being a Saami people.

I don't actually like to go against hard evidence, I try to work with it or I may as well be spouting about ancient aliens.

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#9    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 07:47 AM

As I first said, it's my thought that from about 15,000B-12,000BC the people who had been part of the Magdalenian culture moved North, or some of them anyway, not whole populations, to keep hunting reindeer. I think it's illogical to think they would not have done that.


The reindeer horns seen on Cernunnos and other associated reindeer spirit Gods tells me this animal was core to a belief they had.

From the Humans in America thread:
The serphants phases of the Magdalenian are also synonymous with the human re-settlement of north-western Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum during the Late Glacial Maximum. Research in Switzerland, southern Germany [3] and Belgium [4] has provided AMS radiocarbon dating to support this.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Magdalenian

Magdalenian sites are contemporary with Chancelade Man. Originally Chancelade Man, before being denoted Cro-Magnon status was relegated to an Eskimo because of some similarities in the skull, this idea has since been disgarded. But it shows that Chancelade Man of France actually may have been fairly similar looking to the Saami.


Magdalenian culture tent:
Posted Image

Sami tents:
Posted Image

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#10    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:30 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 26 October 2011 - 07:21 AM, said:

1. I beg to differ. Warrior groups who travelled were more than likely only men, it's well known from myths and stories women were left at home for even more than 10 years while men were off, history gives us numerous large wars where men were off for very, very long periods without women, or their wives and families anyway.
Earlier in time even, as a woman, I know I'd rather be sitting around the warm fire sewing up a seal skin coat than off at war or hunting, which generally is man's game - we produce, not kill. Also, I'm really just going off this:

Anthropologists have been studying the Sami people for hundreds of years for their assumed physical and cultural differences from the rest of Europeans. Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal lineages of the Sámi people are the haplogroups V and the U5b, ancient in Europe. By contrast, the most common paternal lineage among the Sami indicates an Asian origin, who may represent a Uralic-speaking people.

The paternal group indicates an Asian origin, so what else would you make of that than a group of males entering into the (I'll call them) proto-Saami populace? Only after they came in do we get what we term the Saami imo, which genetics shows us today. This links to Q5. The Saami became so at the time the Asian male population came in.

4. No intrusion by anyone. The Sami show a continuation from this culture archaeologically.

5. Why does this indicate this is when the male Asian group might have come in? Evidence for the Sami U5b1b dates to c.8600 +/- 2400 BP, so we'll say 6600 BC.
Is it because the U5b1b has this MALE Asiatic element in it? I'm not sure on haplogroup evidence, the evidence I had read about was old, the IE language coming in with them c. 3000-2000BC, which may have been the point of an incoming Eastern people but I'm still out on this one really. I'm accepting when need be and will look at this point some more.

6. 7000BC some kind of split happened, you say...eg? Group A was roaming, from then came Group B and C, B being Sami, C being Berber - so Group A could not be Saami?

If this is what you mean, I say Group A could still be a proto-Saami group and seen as being a Saami people.

I don't actually like to go against hard evidence, I try to work with it or I may as well be spouting about ancient aliens.

1) Myths and stories are not fact. And while N1c (formerly N3) is indeed Asian it was in the area prior to the Sami's arrival (and therefore prior to your speculation of 3000 - 2000 BC) while the other groups, namely I, R1a and R1b, are European.

Yes the majority, by a slight margin, indicates an Asian origin. However, once again, there is no evidence of a warrior-style intrusion so therefore nothing to support the OLB's claims. Which it appears you're trying to find.

4). If there was no intrusion by anyone then you can leave out the warriors claim you attempted earlier, as war is rather intrusive.  :lol:  And the Sami may show a continutation, to greater or lesser degrees, of the cultures originally in the area but again they don't do so prior to 9000 BP.

5) This ISN'T indicative of when a male Asian group came in. It only indicates when the specific subgroup for Sami, U5b1b, dates to. U5b1b has NO male genetic element to it, it doesn't work that way. Also Proto-Indo-European and early Indo-European dates to your 3000 - 2000 BC timeframe, but Sami and other groups were already in the area prior to that. So whatever language they originally spoke, it wasn't PIE/IE.

6) Not any more than they would be Berber. At best they could be seen as a Sami-Berber people. There's no reason to believe the Sami were any more important to the equation that were the Berber people.

/////

Quote

As I first said, it's my thought that from about 15,000B-12,000BC the people who had been part of the Magdalenian culture moved North, or some of them anyway, not whole populations, to keep hunting reindeer. I think it's illogical to think they would not have done that.

It's not illogical to think that, however, they wouldn't have been Sami in any meaningful way.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 26 October 2011 - 01:34 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#11    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:54 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 October 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

1) Myths and stories are not fact. And while N1c (formerly N3) is indeed Asian it was in the area prior to the Sami's arrival (and therefore prior to your speculation of 3000 - 2000 BC) while the other groups, namely I, R1a and R1b, are European.

Yes the majority, by a slight margin, indicates an Asian origin. However, once again, there is no evidence of a warrior-style intrusion so therefore nothing to support the OLB's claims. Which it appears you're trying to find.

4). If there was no intrusion by anyone then you can leave out the warriors claim you attempted earlier, as war is rather intrusive.  :lol:  And the Sami may show a continutation, to greater or lesser degrees, of the cultures originally in the area but again they don't do so prior to 9000 BP.

5) This ISN'T indicative of when a male Asian group came in. It only indicates when the specific subgroup for Sami, U5b1b, dates to. U5b1b has NO male genetic element to it, it doesn't work that way. Also Proto-Indo-European and early Indo-European dates to your 3000 - 2000 BC timeframe, but Sami and other groups were already in the area prior to that. So whatever language they originally spoke, it wasn't PIE/IE.

6) Not any more than they would be Berber. At best they could be seen as a Sami-Berber people. There's no reason to believe the Sami were any more important to the equation that were the Berber people.

/////



It's not illogical to think that, however, they wouldn't have been Sami in any meaningful way.

cormac
This thread has nothing to do with the OLB actually.

Also, you are going on with crap about the warrior intrusion - I was saying that in response to you saying women would have travelled with the men no matter what, well I don't think they would have. I never said anything about any warrior intrusion into anywhere except in that context.

U5b1b - I didn't mean it had a male element in IT. As usual we seem to be unable to communicate with each other.

I think they were a proto-Saami people then, I still think these people developed into the Saami when they moved North. Or should I say, were the people, who once the Asian element came in, became known as Saami.

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#12    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:16 PM

In Post #3 I showed a chart of Sami Shaman spirits. The Father of the Tribe is named Maadteraahja, to me this word sounds like it contains a Father of a Tribe, the Father of Abraham, Terah. Ja at the end, as a male spirit also reminds me of the shortened form of Jehovah's name Jah. Co-incidence?  :devil:

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#13    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:20 PM

Quote

I never said anything about any warrior intrusion into anywhere except in that context.

But you DID bring the 'warrior' element into the discussion, when there was no real reason to. And, historically speaking, rarely is an 'intrusion' seen as a peaceful occurance.

Also in Post #4; 1) you claimed there WAS an intrusion then in Post #8; 4) you said there WASN'T. So which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Quote

U5b1b - I didn't mean it had a male element in IT. As usual we seem to be unable to communicate with each other.

Well, then you're going to have to explain it better. Because it didn't make sense as written.

Quote

I think they were a proto-Saami people then, I still think these people developed into the Saami when they moved North. Or should I say, were the people, who once the Asian element came in, became known as Saami.

Very possible, but the evidence goes no further than that. Which is the problem I've had with past claims up to this point.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#14    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:27 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 October 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:




Very possible, but the evidence goes no further than that. Which is the problem I've had with past claims up to this point.

cormac
I'm not bothering about the rest of your post because it just goes around in circles.

OK, I understand that, there is no evidence. Possible though and that is all I need, after all this is a discussion forum, what point is discussing already evidenced things? Hardly Unexplained Mysteries are they..?

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#15    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:33 PM

How about the NOAide? A mediator between the Earthly World and the Spirit World, can't say that's not reminding me of someone else, getting instructions from above.

A noaide or noaidi was a mediator between earthly world and the spirit world for the smallest of community problems.
http://en.wikipedia..../Sami_shamanism

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger




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