Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 2 votes

Pascagoula case


  • Please log in to reply
312 replies to this topic

#1    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 08:36 AM

Hello,

I have only recently looked at some abduction cases, and whilst the more prominent cases such as the Hills or Travis Walton seem to make for interesting discussion, I came across the Pascagoula case.

I have not found any decent debunking of the case and I am struggling to find an explanation. I understand we have no evidence in the case that could be tested but there are some very interesting elements, especially the fact that they continued their story whilst being secretly recorded.

Quote

The Pascagoula Abduction Incident
Date: October 11, 1973
Location: Pascagoula, Mississippi, United States
The Pascagoula Incident involved two men, Parker and Hickson, both of Gautier, Mississippi, who were fishing in the Pascagoula River when they heard a buzzing noise behind them. Both turned and were terrified to see a ten-foot-wide, eight-foot-high, glowing egg-shaped object with blue lights at its front hovering just above the ground about forty feet from the river bank. As the men, frozen with fright, watched, a door appeared in the object, and three strange Beings floated just above the river towards them.


Charles Hickson (left) and Calvin Parker.

Pascagoula UFO occupant, as described by Charles Hickson to Tony Accurso, artist for the "Dick Cavett Show." (credit: Ralph and Judy Blum, Beyond Earth: Man's Contact with UFOs)
Type of Case/Report: MajorCase
Hynek Classification: CE4
Special Features/Characteristics: Abduction, Physiological Effects, Polygraph Test, Witness Photo, Humanoid/Occupant


More Articles on this Case
The Pascagoula Incident Directory
NICAP
There are a few cases of reported abductions that really impress me. One of these is the Hickson/Parker case. Here is a collection of articles and documents from the NICAP website.

Print / Other References
Ralph and Judy Blum, Beyond Earth: Man's Contact with UFOs (1974).

Charles Hickson and William Mendez, UFO Contact at Pascagoula (1983).

Richard Heiden, 'The Pascagoula UFO and Occupant Incident," Flying Saucer Review, April 1975.

Full Report / Article
Source: Andy Page / NICAP Original Source
The Pascagoula Incident involved two men, nineteen-year-old Calvin Parker and forty-two-year old Charles Hickson, both of Gautier, Mississippi, who were fishing in the Pascagoula River when they heard a buzzing noise behind them. Both turned and were terrified to see a ten-foot-wide, eight-foot-high, glowing egg-shaped object with blue lights at its front hovering just above the ground about forty feet from the river bank. As the men, frozen with fright, watched, a door appeared in the object, and three strange Beings floated just above the river towards them.

The Beings had legs but did not use them. They were about five feet tall, had bullet-shaped heads without necks, slits for mouths, and where their noses or ears would be, they had thin, conical objects sticking out, like carrots from a snowman's head. They had no eyes, grey, wrinkled skin, round feet, and claw like hands.

Two of the beings seized Hickson; when the third grabbed Parker, the teenager fainted with fright. Hickson claimed that when the Beings placed their hands under his arms, his body became numb, and that then they floated him into a brightly lit room in the UFO's interior, where he was subjected to a medical examination with an eyelike device which, like Hickson himself, was floating in mid-air.

At the end of the examination, the Beings simply left Hickson floating, paralyzed but for his eyes, and went to examine Parker, who, Hickson believed was in another room. Twenty minutes after Hickson had first observed the UFO, he was floated back outside and released. He found Parker weeping and praying on the ground near him. Moments later, the object rose straight up and shot out of site.

Expecting only ridicule if they were to tell anyone what had happened, Hickson and Parker initially decided to keep quiet; but then, because the government might want, or ought, to know about it, they telephoned Kessler Air Force Base in Biloxi. A sergeant there told them to contact the sheriff. But uncertain about the reception their bizarre story might get from the local law, they drove to the local newspaper office to speak to a reporter. When they found the office closed, Hickson and Parker felt they had no alternative but to talk to the sheriff.

The sheriff, after listening to their story, put Hickson and Parker in a room wired for sound in the belief that if the two men were left alone they would reveal their hoax; of course they did not. The local press reported their tale; the wire services picked it up; and within several days the Pascagoula Encounter was major news all over the country. The Aerial Phenomena Research Organization (APRO), founded in 1952, sent University of California engineering professor James Harder to Mississippi to investigate; J. Allen Hynek, representing the Air Force, also arrived. Together they interviews the witnesses. Harder hypnotized Hickson but had to terminate the session when Hickson became too frightened to continue.

Hickson and Parker both subsequently passed lie detector tests. Hynek and Harder believed the two men's story. And Hynek was later quoted as saying "There was definitely something here that was not terrestrial".


My link

------------------------------------------------------

From what I have read even Klass has struggled with this one and his debunk seemed to rest on the polygraph test. Actually its more the person carrying out the test and his lack of training qualifications.....ok so this may mean we cannot trust the test results but by default that doesnt render them false and that the opposite result is applicable.

I have found this link very useful, containing some well written points.

My link

-----------------------------------------------------------

I would welcome any further information or thoughts.

Thanks


#2    TheMcGuffin

TheMcGuffin

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,965 posts
  • Joined:05 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:07 AM

An interesting detail with this case is that the UFO was also seen by other witnesses on the ground and on radar.  In fact, it interred with the radar system in some way.


"In 1973 the failure of a radar system was linked to the abduction of two men aboard a UFO along the Gulf Coast, close to Pascagoula in the USA. The incident reported in the Jackson Daily News claimed that a Marion County civil defense official picked up an unusual radar return that blacked out the entire station.

In the words of the official himself: "It got rather close to the station, about three miles, then it became stationery and all of a sudden my radar suddenly jammed. I've never seen anything quite like this...." Later on that evening when the object returned, the radar unit developed streaks and numerous residents of the area reported a strange craft with bright blue lights. That same night two unnamed scientists went on record as saying they felt certain that two men had been abducted aboard a UFO that was seen hovering in the vicinity."


http://www.space-200...html/radar.html


It was also seen by police officers and reported to have interfered with the transmissions from a radio station.  In fact, the more this case has been studied, the stranger it seems, given the multiple radar reports, eyewitnesses who saw it in the air and landing in other areas.


http://books.google....o radar&f=false

"The stuff that dreams are made of"

#3    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:14 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 27 October 2011 - 10:07 AM, said:

An interesting detail with this case is that the UFO was also seen by other witnesses on the ground and on radar.  In fact, it interred with the radar system in some way.


"In 1973 the failure of a radar system was linked to the abduction of two men aboard a UFO along the Gulf Coast, close to Pascagoula in the USA. The incident reported in the Jackson Daily News claimed that a Marion County civil defense official picked up an unusual radar return that blacked out the entire station.

In the words of the official himself: "It got rather close to the station, about three miles, then it became stationery and all of a sudden my radar suddenly jammed. I've never seen anything quite like this...." Later on that evening when the object returned, the radar unit developed streaks and numerous residents of the area reported a strange craft with bright blue lights. That same night two unnamed scientists went on record as saying they felt certain that two men had been abducted aboard a UFO that was seen hovering in the vicinity."


http://www.space-200...html/radar.html


It was also seen by police officers and reported to have interfered with the transmissions from a radio station.  In fact, the more this case has been studied, the stranger it seems, given the multiple radar reports, eyewitnesses who saw it in the air and landing in other areas.


http://books.google....o radar&f=false

thanks for the additional info McG. I have looked into it quite a bit, the only reservation I have with regards to some of the witnesses is that they came forward after the event, and considering the speed at which it made headlines they are sitting targets for 'debunkers' to claim false reports created by the media hype.

I will look into your links, I am intrigued by any corroborating Radar hits that can be proven.

I find this case very solid to date and I am looking forward to seeing if our 'resident skeptics' can do a better job than Klass did, otherwise its another case that cant be proven with scientific evidence but good luck solving it with a prosaic explanation.


#4    TheMcGuffin

TheMcGuffin

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,965 posts
  • Joined:05 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:22 AM

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 10:14 AM, said:

thanks for the additional info McG. I have looked into it quite a bit, the only reservation I have with regards to some of the witnesses is that they came forward after the event, and considering the speed at which it made headlines they are sitting targets for 'debunkers' to claim false reports created by the media hype.

I will look into your links, I am intrigued by any corroborating Radar hits that can be proven.

I find this case very solid to date and I am looking forward to seeing if our 'resident skeptics' can do a better job than Klass did, otherwise its another case that cant be proven with scientific evidence but good luck solving it with a prosaic explanation.

Look up James Thornhill, the retired Air Force officer and meteorologist who reported that UFOs were jamming his radar at the time of this Pascagoula incident.

"RADAR JAMMED - James Thornhill, a retired Air Force officer, meteorologist and director of civil defense in the south Mississippi community of Columbia, sits by the radar scope he says "jammed" as he was tracking an object that became stationary just before the radar went out. Thornhill said shortly after that he began getting reports of UFO's from area residents. The south central U.S. is the current center of "flying saucer" sightings. (UPI)"

http://wiki.razing.n...oulapress01.htm


A Coast Guard radar station in the area was also jammed at the same time after tracking the UFO.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 27 October 2011 - 10:24 AM.

"The stuff that dreams are made of"

#5    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:56 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 27 October 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

Look up James Thornhill, the retired Air Force officer and meteorologist who reported that UFOs were jamming his radar at the time of this Pascagoula incident.

"RADAR JAMMED - James Thornhill, a retired Air Force officer, meteorologist and director of civil defense in the south Mississippi community of Columbia, sits by the radar scope he says "jammed" as he was tracking an object that became stationary just before the radar went out. Thornhill said shortly after that he began getting reports of UFO's from area residents. The south central U.S. is the current center of "flying saucer" sightings. (UPI)"

http://wiki.razing.n...oulapress01.htm


A Coast Guard radar station in the area was also jammed at the same time after tracking the UFO.


thanks. this certainly strengthens the case IMO....

I am struggling to find a 17 page 'debunk' by Klass on this, although I understand that his primary focus is on attacking the Polyographer....I suspect things like their conversation in private along with these RADAR hits are suitably ignored in those 17 pages....but hey this is just me speculating, maybe I should give Klass some credit and even the benefit of doubt that he was thorough  :rolleyes:


#6    Englishgent

Englishgent

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,909 posts
  • Joined:24 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangkok Thailand

  • all dinosaurs are thin at one end, much, much thicker in the middle, then thin again at the far end -- Monty Python

Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:35 AM

Please dont get me wrong here as I dont wish to detract from the OP's original post and I am not suggesting there is no evidence to support abductions, but I find it rather strange that this whole 'adbuction' thing seems to be an American phenonemon. Does anybody have any statistics as to how many adbuctions there are worldwide and not just in the USA?


#7    mcrom901

mcrom901

    plasmoid ninja

  • Member
  • 5,599 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:multiverse

  • space debris, decided to evolve and become us!

Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:45 AM

were there any inconsistencies in the stories put forth by said abductees? or in other words, which aspects of the polygraph testing seemed to be an eyebrow raiser...

Posted Image

Edited by mcrom901, 27 October 2011 - 11:47 AM.


#8    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:44 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

were there any inconsistencies in the stories put forth by said abductees? or in other words, which aspects of the polygraph testing seemed to be an eyebrow raiser...


from what I have read and understood there were no inconsistencies by abductees...at least not at the time....20 years later, well maybe but this is easily accounted for.

with regards to the polygraph test, there was no eyebrows raised on the test itself or the Q&A's...it was merely the person who carried out the test had not been properly qualified (according to Klass). Again I say if this is the best Klass had then that alone says something IMO


#9    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:47 PM

View PostEnglishgent, on 27 October 2011 - 11:35 AM, said:

Please dont get me wrong here as I dont wish to detract from the OP's original post and I am not suggesting there is no evidence to support abductions, but I find it rather strange that this whole 'adbuction' thing seems to be an American phenonemon. Does anybody have any statistics as to how many adbuctions there are worldwide and not just in the USA?

I am sure the phenomena is not merely isolated to the USA, however I dont know of any stats relating to this.


#10    mcrom901

mcrom901

    plasmoid ninja

  • Member
  • 5,599 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:multiverse

  • space debris, decided to evolve and become us!

Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:08 PM

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 12:44 PM, said:

from what I have read and understood there were no inconsistencies by abductees...at least not at the time....20 years later, well maybe but this is easily accounted for.

with regards to the polygraph test, there was no eyebrows raised on the test itself or the Q&A's...it was merely the person who carried out the test had not been properly qualified (according to Klass). Again I say if this is the best Klass had then that alone says something IMO

thanks, i wasn't aware about the details of this case... but as i understand, only one of them took the test...

Quote

As noted above, both Parker and Hickson volunteered to take polygraph exams to prove their stories. In the end, only Hickson did so, and the examiner determined that Hickson believed the story about the UFO abduction.

source: wiki (see below)

i also don't understand as to how the inconsistencies which were introduced to the original story 20 years later can be accounted for....

Quote

In a later interview over 20 years after the initial incident, Parker's story became much more elaborate. Here Parker confessed to lying about fainting in sight of the creatures. He claimed that he was in fact conscious when the creatures took him on board the craft and led him into a room at the other end of a hallway to the left of the craft's entrance. He claims he was laid down on a sloped table and examined by a 'petite,' evidently female, being. Though he was paralyzed, he was able to observe the being inject a needle into the base of the underside of his penis. The being later communicated with him telepathically, suggesting that he had been taken for a reason. While he was not able to define it, Parker felt a sense of imminent harm. Nevertheless, he was led back outside the craft and deposited back into his original position unharmed. He then claimed that 19 years later, he came in contact with the same craft again. This time he voluntarily walked aboard the craft and met with the same female being that had examined his body in 1973. He claimed he had a conversation with the being, in English, in which she communicated to him a religious message. She informed him that they shared the same God, that the bible was an authentic text, and that her species wanted to live on earth but could not due to humanity's tendency towards war and destruction.

http://en.wikipedia....goula_Abduction


#11    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 02:04 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

thanks, i wasn't aware about the details of this case... but as i understand, only one of them took the test...

sorry yes, only Charlie took the test, although it seems both offered to do it, so not sure why only Charlie was tested?!?


View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:


i also don't understand as to how the inconsistencies which were introduced to the original story 20 years later can be accounted for....



the main change is the fainting part which can be accounted for in regards to 'ego' or/and 'pride' both these things would obviously not have been overpowering at the time considering the experience, but over time a few little tweaks to save face, or even confusion due to time all start to add changes. However I dont think incosistancies can be found early on or at the time.

How do we account for the story they continued whilst being recorded?
how do we account for other witnesses?
how do we account for RADAR hits (assuming they did happen)?
Lastly motive seems to be missing if a hoax is suggested.


#12    mcrom901

mcrom901

    plasmoid ninja

  • Member
  • 5,599 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:multiverse

  • space debris, decided to evolve and become us!

Posted 27 October 2011 - 02:21 PM

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

How do we account for the story they continued whilst being recorded?

perhaps something did happen... with the excerpt from the condign report which i quoted above, i was trying to point in that direction...

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

how do we account for other witnesses?

witnesses to ufos? like... http://www.ufoeviden...ents/doc822.htm

or?

Quote

Subsequent investigation by Joe Esterhas of Rolling Stone uncovered some additional information, leading to increased skepticism about the abduction claim. The supposed UFO landing and abduction site was in full view of two 24-hour toll booths, and neither operator saw anything that night. Also, the site was in range of security cameras from nearby Ingalls Shipyard, but the cameras did not capture anything unusual that night.

http://en.wikipedia....goula_Abduction

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

how do we account for RADAR hits (assuming they did happen)?

see above

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

Lastly motive seems to be missing if a hoax is suggested.

perhaps embellishments due to their inability to describe a distorted incident in a coherent manner?


#13    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

perhaps something did happen... with the excerpt from the condign report which i quoted above, i was trying to point in that direction...

at this point, to me it seems something did, especially as I have heard nothing with enough weight to tip the scales.

View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:


witnesses to ufos? like... http://www.ufoeviden...ents/doc822.htm

or?

yes witnesses like these, plus there are some others. I also believe two people reported seeing something within hours of the men being at the station. Will find the link to that information.

View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:


well these two booths, are they both manned 24 hours? if serving cars what way do they actually face themselves? possible they didnt look in direction at the time, were they interviewed after? how do we know they saw nothing? if based on the fact they didnt report anything then surely 'logical fallacy' kicks in.
As for the cameras, are they always on? in exact direction and range of sighting? if sighting location is out by 20 metres can they still capture anything? when are the tapes changed and for how long are they kept before re-writing over them? who checked them and when?

oh and how many mickles in a muckle?  :P

and lastly on Joe (with the additional information left in)  :P :

Quote

Subsequent investigation by Joe Eszterhas of Rolling Stone uncovered some additional information. The UFO landing site was in full view of two twenty-four hour toll booths, and neither operator saw anything. Also, the site was in range of security cameras from nearby Ingalls Shipyard, and the cameras showed nothing that night. But serious doubts can be cast on this late investigation: for example, it is also claimed that motorists from the nearby highway should have seen the blue light in the night and did not. This is plainly wrong, and Sherrif Diamond did respond to that, his office actually received three unnamed reports of motorists who did see the blue light where the two men were abducted, a few hundred yards from the highway.

When I looked for information about reporter Joe Eszterhas, I first found these comments about him: "You all remember Joe Eszterhas, don't you? Child of poor Hungarian immigrants in Cleveland, '60s radical, former gonzo reporter for Rolling Stone, National Book Award nominee and once the highest-paid screenwriter in Hollywood." (1) Not quite a qualified ufologist profile.

The case was all but closed Charles Hickson. Years after, he explained that he was still in contact with aliens beings. His son Eddie, at the age of 36, explained that Charles Hickson had a flat object, gray, the size of a coin, which warmed up before he received telepathic messages. Hickson continued to undergo psychological testing as he had experienced at least two serious mental crises. He had the opportunity to undergo hypnotic regressions again, this time new images went up to the surface: apparently, there were beings which seemed human, behind a glass pane in the craft, they passively looked at the three strange creatures which scanned Hickson. It is at this point that he interpreted the three strange beings as sorts of robots, directed by the human like creatures who would have been the real occupants of the craft. But the investigations at this time were very discrete, Hickson did not reach for media attention and it seems difficult to make all the light on these after-effects.
from My link


View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:


see above

above doesnt cover RADAR?

View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:


perhaps embellishments due to their inability to describe a distorted incident in a coherent manner?

I think this sentence says a lot and is accurate. This does I believe work in their favour does it not?


#14    mcrom901

mcrom901

    plasmoid ninja

  • Member
  • 5,599 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:multiverse

  • space debris, decided to evolve and become us!

Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:21 PM

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

at this point, to me it seems something did,

close encounter with a ufo or an actual 'physical abduction'?

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

yes witnesses like these,

ufo sightings? yes, but no actual witnesses to the abduction itself...  

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

well these two booths, are they both manned 24 hours? if serving cars what way do they actually face themselves? possible they didnt look in direction at the time, were they interviewed after? how do we know they saw nothing? if based on the fact they didnt report anything then surely 'logical fallacy' kicks in.
As for the cameras, are they always on? in exact direction and range of sighting? if sighting location is out by 20 metres can they still capture anything? when are the tapes changed and for how long are they kept before re-writing over them? who checked them and when?

i was trying to point to the closest reference, where they could have had supporting witnesses, but nonetheless...

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

oh and how many mickles in a muckle?  :P

Posted Image

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

and lastly on Joe (with the additional information left in)  :P :

from My link

:alien:

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

above doesnt cover RADAR?

i meant the same i.e. again, ufos

View Postquillius, on 27 October 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

I think this sentence says a lot and is accurate. This does I believe work in their favour does it not?

i'm not sure what to make of it...  :hmm:  :tu:


#15    quillius

quillius

    52.0839 N, 1.4328 E

  • Member
  • 4,958 posts
  • Joined:04 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LONDON

  • A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
    Albert Einstein

Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:31 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 27 October 2011 - 03:21 PM, said:

close encounter with a ufo or an actual 'physical abduction'?



ufo sightings? yes, but no actual witnesses to the abduction itself...  




i meant the same i.e. again, ufos



i'm not sure what to make of it...  :hmm:  :tu:


All points noted and well yes I think step one is to confirm close encounter with a UFO. We are then left with (in line with what you posted earlier re: plasma) what happened after seeing the said object?

So I think we really need to look at the descriptions given of both object, beings and series of events from both the 'abductees'. You see I think plasma affecting the mind as you alluded to is the only real 'known' possibility, once hoax is excluded (which I feel it is). However for this to stand up, surely the experience, along with descriptions/perceptions of what they saw would have to differ, would it not?





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users