669 replies to this topic

[kmt_sesh]

theminstrels, on 27 January 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

To me people of the past have the same capabilities that we do.  The only real difference between us and them is we have a better way of sharing our knowledge around the globe and putting it all together.  A lot of our greatest leaps forward as a civilization have come from collaberation between several individuals from different areas.

A valid point, theminstrels. To be sure, the people of the past possessed the exact same brains as we do because, like us, they were Homo sapiens sapiens. The same cognitive abilities and potential were there.

It drives me a little batty when people suggest ancient civilizations were much more advanced than we modern folks are. Such a notion is absolutely ludicrous, of course. Even some of our most basic technologies--newspapers, radios, toasters, microwaves--represent a level of science far, far beyond what ancient peoples could only imagine. To suggest that we could not possibly build something ourselves like the Great Pyramid is just silly, although not quite as inane as suggesting aliens did it.

Still, it is always fair to acknowledge that the level of technological sophistication at which we stand today could not have been obtained had it not been for advances going all the way back to ancient peoples.

LOL It surprises me that this old thread still pops up now and then. Most of the discussions I start just don't last that long.

[third_eye]

kmt_sesh, on 16 December 2011 - 02:27 AM, said:

So you're saying talking to lizard carvings is like...trying to reason with fringies?

You used "lizard" and "politician" in the same post. If someone were reading it too quickly, they might think you were comparing lizards to politicians. Now, that's not very nice. I think you might owe an apology to lizards everywhere.

cormac mac airt, on 16 December 2011 - 02:32 AM, said:

Sorry but no, Kimosabe, as both speak with forked-tongue.    

cormac

Lizards ... Politicians ...
Forked~tongue???

You two fine gents owe serpents the world over an apology too methinks


Jacobson would slot the politicians and gecko together but only as far up his organ

[Lumpino]

Fact is that ancint priests could contact tjose gods and goddesses. It was also common practice of ancient mysteries.
See you for example Theurgia by Iamblichus. I don't think, that aliens will start an interstellar ship , to arrived to see what a priest asks. :-)
http://www.esoterica...le/iambl_th.htm

[thewatchman7]

Lumpino, on 29 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Fact is that ancint priests could contact tjose gods and goddesses. It was also common practice of ancient mysteries.
See you for example Theurgia by Iamblichus. I don't think, that aliens will start an interstellar ship , to arrived to see what a priest asks. :-)
http://www.esoterica...le/iambl_th.htm

no, no its not.

[Tesla II]

I know most of the show is rubbish but there are elements of thruth in there... Best information ever was described in north and south american cultures where gods aren't called gods but star travelers. That is alot of information in one word. So they didn't base their worshiping on "gods" but those star travelers which may return someday. So yes they had contact before in much more proper manner. Still lots of information in there are shoti n the dark. But evidence still stands out.

[Mallaliak]

Nuke_em, on 29 January 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I know most of the show is rubbish but there are elements of thruth in there... Best information ever was described in north and south american cultures where gods aren't called gods but star travelers. That is alot of information in one word. So they didn't base their worshiping on "gods" but those star travelers which may return someday. So yes they had contact before in much more proper manner. Still lots of information in there are shoti n the dark. But evidence still stands out.

Allow me to introduce the word "Celestial".

Just becouse a group(s) belives in that someone of great power and influence comes from the stars, doesn't mean it's true. Many faith's all claims that the sky with the sun, clouds, moon, stars and visible planets are homes to, or infact beings. If we translate something, or a word seems to have a reference to something from above ground level here, doesn't mean it's actually literal.

[Tesla II]

Mallaliak, on 29 January 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Allow me to introduce the word "Celestial".

Just becouse a group(s) belives in that someone of great power and influence comes from the stars, doesn't mean it's true. Many faith's all claims that the sky with the sun, clouds, moon, stars and visible planets are homes to, or infact beings. If we translate something, or a word seems to have a reference to something from above ground level here, doesn't mean it's actually literal.

I don't think so... Something came that made quite an impact on a man from that era, they wouldn't just go and picture all mighty beings with wings and making them holy whatever... If you were Inca at the time and some foreign race would arrive to your " homeland" you would picture them as Gods because they didn't walk to you but they flew in from the sky. Plus there are many cultures that talk about this people from the sky. They weren't drugged or under a "spell" that was a real time experience i don't know how much proof you need than written on, why did all those races pictured every being or deity with ability to fly? All this came from some event or experience in history of those races it ain't a fairytale. I don't know but there is direct word for visitations through many ancient civilizations. Maybe there were humans before us here that were far more powerfull and developed by us. History doesn't cover all eras of this Earth, meaning  we don't have a single clue to what was happening here back in early days of our planet but scientists guess. Sorry but everyone can guess and make up theories.

[Mallaliak]

People are inclined to belive in something. Be in a personal moral code, another person, a divine or extra terrestial being, the basis is still the same. Let's put it like this then.

When cultures has moved on, they have taken their technology, ideas and so on with them. Some will stay the same, other pieces or groups will start to turn another direction.

Far, far down the line, we might have two widely diffrent cultures, but their origin and background is the same.

When you go by that line of though, how does that influence the idea that all those old cultures had contact with ET's or divine beings? It might be as you suggest, we had ET's appearing from space, or it might be as I think. Someone just wondered what was up there and got the idea of other beings, and the idea stuck to their culture(s), and is now pretty much stuck with us.

"Sorry but everyone can guess and make up theories." Yes, that's indeed true. Anyone can make up anything, but without physical evidence, what was real and what was fiction will be blurr far down the line.

[SuperSoylent]

This is an excellent thread. Thank you for making it! I Wish I had more time - just a quick hello and thanks.

[Tesla II]

Mallaliak, on 29 January 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

People are inclined to belive in something. Be in a personal moral code, another person, a divine or extra terrestial being, the basis is still the same. Let's put it like this then.

When cultures has moved on, they have taken their technology, ideas and so on with them. Some will stay the same, other pieces or groups will start to turn another direction.

Far, far down the line, we might have two widely diffrent cultures, but their origin and background is the same.

When you go by that line of though, how does that influence the idea that all those old cultures had contact with ET's or divine beings? It might be as you suggest, we had ET's appearing from space, or it might be as I think. Someone just wondered what was up there and got the idea of other beings, and the idea stuck to their culture(s), and is now pretty much stuck with us.

"Sorry but everyone can guess and make up theories." Yes, that's indeed true. Anyone can make up anything, but without physical evidence, what was real and what was fiction will be blurr far down the line.

Interesting view on this! Still there is darkness, there is no evidences for any of those theories. You made up pretty good point thou, would explain the wings on a man figure. We are so evolved but so uncapable of finding out what was really happening in those times.

[kmt_sesh]

Nuke_em, on 29 January 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I know most of the show is rubbish but there are elements of thruth in there... Best information ever was described in north and south american cultures where gods aren't called gods but star travelers. That is alot of information in one word. So they didn't base their worshiping on "gods" but those star travelers which may return someday. So yes they had contact before in much more proper manner. Still lots of information in there are shoti n the dark. But evidence still stands out.

Nuke_em, on 29 January 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

I don't think so... Something came that made quite an impact on a man from that era, they wouldn't just go and picture all mighty beings with wings and making them holy whatever... If you were Inca at the time and some foreign race would arrive to your " homeland" you would picture them as Gods because they didn't walk to you but they flew in from the sky. Plus there are many cultures that talk about this people from the sky. They weren't drugged or under a "spell" that was a real time experience i don't know how much proof you need than written on, why did all those races pictured every being or deity with ability to fly? All this came from some event or experience in history of those races it ain't a fairytale. I don't know but there is direct word for visitations through many ancient civilizations. Maybe there were humans before us here that were far more powerfull and developed by us. History doesn't cover all eras of this Earth, meaning  we don't have a single clue to what was happening here back in early days of our planet but scientists guess. Sorry but everyone can guess and make up theories.

I'm wondering if you heard of "star travelers" on something like Ancient Aliens, or is it something you read in a book by a fringe writer, or is it something you read in a book written by a properly educated, trained, and vetted historian? If it's something you picked up from  Ancient Aliens or a fringe writer, you should know from the start not to trust the information without considerable fact-checking, which means consulting reliable and reputable historical research. Folks like the halfwits on  Ancient Aliens very, very rarely present information in a straight-forward and accurate manner.

My forte is not Mesoamerica. I have conducted only minimal studies on these civilizations, and most particularly the Aztecs. The Aztecs did not refer to their deities as "star travelers," so to which specific Mesoamerican civilization are you referring? Olmec, Zapotec, Mayan, Inca, or any of the numerous others from ancient Mexico, Central America, and South America? Can you cite a reputable historical examination wherein one or more of these cultures referred to their deities as "star travelers"?

To be sure, most Mesoamerican deities were not shown as flying beings. That's an exaggeration. The same is true for the deities venerated in the civilizations of the ancient Near East, which is my forte. Only those deities with solar or heavenly connotations were generally shown as flying beings, among other forms. And there is nothing in the extant imagery or textual evidence to suggest ancient people truly believed beings traveled from some far place in the cosmos in celestial craft to visit earth and influence human beings. This is how it's generally portrayed on Ancient Aliens, but I can assure you with utmost confidence and frankness that practically everything portrayed on Ancient Aliens is utter bull-flop.

[Tesla II]

Well there is tribe by the name of Zuni. In one of the episodes their cheif or boss explains the markings on the wall as beings that came here from the stars, and rituals that shows how these beings came to them. I don't think whole show is credible BUT has some thruth to it. What is your thought on subject of flying chariots? Maybe a comet? If you watch the show closely you'll see that they do make false assumptions for example; An ancient atomic bomb somewhere in India... like what drugs? They said they found skeletons faced down and holding hands and stuff like that and the instantly say it was an ancient weapon...more like a meteorit hitting that part of Pakistan or something similar. Still some very strange things are showed like zone of silence and rock of condor ( peru ). Maybe i do believe some of that stuff was MAYBE done with help of something outworldly, everything else is scifi.

[Mallaliak]

I don't recall anyone representing any tribal group that literally claimed, they belived in a ET that came to them. Sure there were a few that belived their "gods/spirits" were up among the stars. But why would that give any credit? All faiths places their gods and passed away spirits somewhere. Some up there, others below the earth, some among us, others reincarnate.

The show just tries to bite off enough to make anyone choke and try to present it. In Season 3 they present a ROCK WALL as a gateway to another planet, and it's activated through chanting or drums. It's not a machine, it's not minerals, it's just plain, normal rock.

[Sensible Logic]

Lumpino, on 29 January 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Fact is that ancint priests could contact tjose gods and goddesses. It was also common practice of ancient mysteries.
See you for example Theurgia by Iamblichus. I don't think, that aliens will start an interstellar ship , to arrived to see what a priest asks. :-)
http://www.esoterica...le/iambl_th.htm

There is no evidence that priests could talk to their gods outside of the unsupported claims made by the priests themselves.  Further, priests talking to their gods as an indication that the gods were aliens is no more factual than the source of lightning being Zeus' thunderbolts or ocean storms are caused by Poseidon.

[kmt_sesh]

Nuke_em, on 30 January 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Well there is tribe by the name of Zuni. In one of the episodes their cheif or boss explains the markings on the wall as beings that came here from the stars, and rituals that shows how these beings came to them. I don't think whole show is credible BUT has some thruth to it. What is your thought on subject of flying chariots? Maybe a comet? If you watch the show closely you'll see that they do make false assumptions for example; An ancient atomic bomb somewhere in India... like what drugs? They said they found skeletons faced down and holding hands and stuff like that and the instantly say it was an ancient weapon...more like a meteorit hitting that part of Pakistan or something similar. Still some very strange things are showed like zone of silence and rock of condor ( peru ). Maybe i do believe some of that stuff was MAYBE done with help of something outworldly, everything else is scifi.

I don't know the context in which this Zuni elder was interviewed but I would certainly be wary of the information. If this person was not paid to play a part for some TV episode but in fact believes in what he's saying, his beliefs certainly do not represent the standard, traditional beliefs of the Zuni people. I don't know of any traditional Native Americans who honestly believe this stuff, at least as it might pertain to the histories and traditions of their people. And if this Zuni elder was interviewed on Ancient Aliens, you can certainly and comfortably dismiss his claims.

It's not that I'm some cranky curmudgeon, Nuke_em. I haven't seen every episode of Ancient Aliens but I've watched a lot of them, in an effort to understand the show's popularity and what people are taking away from it. I am not exaggerating when I state that I have yet to see von Däniken or Tsoukalos or any of the other characters present an argument cogently, accurately, and honestly. Everything I've heard them argue is misrepresented, partially true but twisted, or just plain fully false.

So, no, from my own experience, nothing these kooks on Ancient Aliens tell you has some truth to it.

The "ancient India nukes" is a prime example. I'm glad you're skeptical about it. The site to which the fringe crowd usually refers is Mohenjo-Daro. I think it's been presented this way on Ancient Aliens, too. The information you receive from fringe venues is, without question, exceedingly misrepresented and misleading. This historical site does not evidence unusual radioactive readings. I believe to this point in time several hundred skeletons have been excavated, but none of them are glowingly radioactive. Let's look at these skeletons closer, in fact.

Several hundred might sound like a lot. It is not. Mohenjo-Daro was a long-occupied site and probably sustained a large population at any one time, so several hundred skeletons is not unusual. Nor are all of the skeletons contemporary, and this is a critical point. Shows like Ancient Aliens almost never properly evaluate or present archaeological findings. The truth is, those skeletons excavated at Mohenjo-Daro come from a variety of different time periods in the long occupation of the site. So when the fringe authors and presenters are telling you archaeologists found bodies sprawled all over the streets, the archaeological reality is that some bodies were found in a context some meters below the street, meaning what was a street in one of the last stages of occupation at Mohenjo-Daro may well have been the location of a burial ground at some point in time long before the street existed.

One last thing to mention about Mohenjo-Daro is the state of preservation. For something that was supposed to have sustained an apocalyptic nuclear blast, Mohenjo-Daro is impressively preserved. Frail brick walls still stand, and plentiful delicate material culture survived. The whole premise of an ancient nuclear explosion at Mohenjo-Daro is just plain crap.

I found this web page to be pretty decent about the realities of Mohenjo-Daro. Give it a read.

As for "flying chariots," it's probably best if you cite an example in context. It's too broad an idea for me to provide authoritative comment. Numerous deities of the ancient Near East were depicted riding in chariots, but not always (if not even usually) in the sky. In Egypt, for example, the sun god Re did not traverse the heavens in a chariot but in a boat. But even in those contexts where a deity is shown riding in a chariot through the sky, should we honestly assume there can be no other explanation than that this is a depiction of an ancient alien in a spacecraft?