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George Not Best Says UK


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#31    seventh_son

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 11:27 PM

I wouldn't say we are " world police "  more like "baby sitters" for all the friggin babies!!!!

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#32    Babs

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 01:51 AM

grin2.gif   thumbsup.gif

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#33    Permakid

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 02:14 AM

QUOTE(Talon)
No, it would defeat the purpose of citizenship if everyone had a vote on the US leader, and I don't think anyone is proposing that so it really isn't an issue. However, we do have a right to absolutely terrified of who the US people are going to put in power and how it will effect events on the other side of the planet. And that means that we do have a right to make an opinion on the subject.


I agree 100%, Talon.  And it feels pretty good to say that, too, considering we have been disagreeing so much lately.

Anyway, here's a LINK to an audio clip from today's edition of The World that illustrates just how the majority of non-Americans view the upcoming election. (NOTE: you have to click on the icon next to where it says "World Poll report (3:30)" - near the top of the page.)

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#34    Talon

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 02:19 AM

QUOTE
I agree 100%, Talon. And it feels pretty good to say that, too, considering we have been disagreeing so much lately.


It is nice isn't it grin2.gif probably because barring the death penatly our views on most issues aren't all that different. thumbsup.gif

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#35    Talon

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 02:23 AM

And a very good link grin2.gif

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#36    Velikovsky

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 05:29 AM

QUOTE(Homer @ Sep 8 2004, 05:00 PM)
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this statement. However, I feel it is wrong to make this kind of statement without listing some examples. I would prefer examples that doesn't include the war on terror. Not including invading anyone or terrorism, I don't hear anyone complain about The U.S. sticking their noses everywhere.

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It looks like you're asking for examples of the US sticking their nose in foreign affairs.

QUOTE(Homer @ Sep 8 2004, 06:09 PM)
QUOTE(Velikovsky @ Sep 8 2004, 01:34 PM)

As for America sticking its nose into other people's business here are some examples.
America helping Manuel Noriega into power.
America helping Saddam Hussein into power.
America helping form, train and fund Al Qaeda.
America helping form a democratic government in Iran then withdrawing support and allowing the Shah to regain power.
America dealing heroin throughout Europe during the Vietnam war.

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Also, regarding the U.S. sticking their nose in everyone elses business, this topic is about the current election and Bush/Kerry. We can go back in time and find fault with every country on the planet, but that's not staying within the topic. Can you give some examples of the U.S. sticking it's nose in other's business, not including the war on terror?

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Not a single one of those concerns the war on terror. But they're all great examples of why the world is more than a little concerned on who we elect President.

So you asked for examples in this topic, I gave you examples and then you act like you have no idea why I'm listing examples. Trying to imply I'm off topic?

You're right we can find examples of every country making bad decisions. However most of my examples are within the last 20 years. They're not old history and as long as the world is still paying the price for those decisions they will remain pertinent.

QUOTE(bathory @ Sep 8 2004, 06:15 PM)
The US didn't help saddam to power...he only got their support after the fundamentalists took Iran and even then Saddam was promising suger plum fairies and candy for all iraqis.

American helping form a democratic government in iran? hmmm? They backed the Shah....and then pulled backing allowing the current iranian regime to take power? at least thats my understanding of it...the Shah was a nice guy by middle eastern standards:)

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Did I switch Iran all around, my bad. grin2.gif  But the original idea of that statement is still true. So that part I'll stand behind.

As for Saddam. Perhaps I should have said we helped him maintain power?
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#37    bathory

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 05:42 AM

QUOTE
As for Saddam. Perhaps I should have said we helped him maintain power?


perhaps you should have, then again,   the entire west did.
It wasn't the US who sold him those nasty chemical weapons thouygh just in case anyone complains



#38    Velikovsky

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 06:07 AM

If you read the article, no the west didn't the UN wasn't very happy about.
Senate wasn't very happy about it.

As for the chemical weapons coming from the US, quite a few people believe it did.

Iran sues US

US sells chemical weapon supplies to Iraq

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#39    bathory

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 06:35 AM

QUOTE
no the west didn't the UN wasn't very happy about.
Senate wasn't very happy about it.


The UN is a fraud

the West supported saddam, its as simple as that, unless of course all those french fighter jets were built in Iraq...all that russian and french artilery were built in Iraq.

As for the US regarding chemical/bio weapons supplying

Some biological samples were given to the Iraqi government for medical research purposes.

Various pesticides (which i'm assuming the cyanide is one of) were also given to the Iraqi government, for civilian uses.

a few helicopters were also given, for civilian uses

The french supplied Saddam with the equipment to manufacture his own chemicals, he didn't need US supplies, and as far as i know he was mostly using russian artillery and as such couldn't use american shells.

at any rate, the problem with the counterpunch link is that while it makes all these claims that the US supplied him with chemical/bio weapons, their definition of chemical/bio weapons seems to be materials that could be used as chem/bio weapons. The problem with this is that many of these chemicals have multiple uses, allot of these uses are legitamate.  Its like saying "the US sold so and so a heap of fertilser, he said it was for his crops, but he just made a big ass bomb out of it", we aren't given much context to work with other than some chemicals were sold.

What i would like to know is when did these sales occur, the link doesn't specify, all it says is that in 1991 - 1992 so and so reported this was sold during the 80s. When in the 80s?

lol @ the Iran suing the US


Edited by bathory, 09 September 2004 - 06:37 AM.


#40    Velikovsky

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 06:40 AM

Not long after the Rumsfield visit.
Now since we knew that Saddam had no problem using chemical weapons, why would the US government allow sales to Iraq of supplies that could be used for making chemical weapons?

i almost forgot. Colin Powell who should have been President. if he'd only run in 96 when he was talking about it.
also why are you so against the UN last time I checked the US was one of the main forces behind forming the UN.

Edited by Velikovsky, 09 September 2004 - 06:41 AM.

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#41    bathory

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 07:25 AM

QUOTE
Now since we knew that Saddam had no problem using chemical weapons, why would the US government allow sales to Iraq of supplies that could be used for making chemical weapons?


because they have industrial/commerical uses as well?
can you demonstrate that
a) the chemicals were in fact used to make chemical weapons
cool.gif they were given/sold to Saddams regime (or businesses in Iraq, people like to play loose with these sort of facts) with the knowledge that they would be used in weapons programs.


#42    Velikovsky

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 07:47 AM

can you prove it to be wrong?
Since I don't have my security clearance anymore I can't look that up.
Can you?
What, you can't never mind then.

They were sold. Iraq had a history already. End of story.
Would you sell the supplies to make chemical weapons to Iran?

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#43    Lottie

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 08:07 AM

QUOTE
I wouldn't say we are " world police "  more like "baby sitters" for all the friggin babies!!!!


If you want to ge all high and mighty about it let em remind you....
The US is only 250 years old and the rest of the World along with the British Empire did fine thankyou very much before your country was ever created. If it wasn't for the rest of the world your country would not exist the way it does. So less of the big boy attitude.

Edited by Lottie, 09 September 2004 - 08:08 AM.


#44    Kismit

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 08:50 AM

There will be warnings issued shortly for insiting inflammatory comments .

We will remember that the moderators are not all American and take offence at being refered to as Babies that require babysitting . So that every one is clear these remarks are aimed particularly at Seventh Son and Babs for the added incouragement .

Edited by Kismit, 09 September 2004 - 09:03 AM.


#45    bathory

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 09:46 AM

QUOTE
can you prove it to be wrong?
Since I don't have my security clearance anymore I can't look that up.
Can you?
What, you can't never mind then.


you are the one making the assertion:)

"the US sold some chemicals which could possibly be used in a chemical weapon"  is not  "the US sold Iraq WMDS OMG"

QUOTE
They were sold. Iraq had a history already. End of story.


no its not end of story
don't you realise that many of the chemicals used to create chemical weapons are also widely used chemicals in industry, chlorine for example is a major componant of Mustard gas, it is also is widely used within the chemical industry, according to this site

Chlorine Online

QUOTE
Chlorine is essential to Europe's chemical industry, with 55% of all chemical processing depending on this element. It allows the efficient use of raw materials and energy in the production of numerous compounds which would be difficult or impossible to synthesise using other pathways.








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