Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

A Well Supported Theory about Pyramids


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
798 replies to this topic

#241    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 17,158 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:50 AM

View Postpatrickgiles, on 18 November 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

I dare you to cite 10 items total that have been found in all the Old Kingdom pyramids combined. I know you can't because I've done the research.
It's called Tomb Robbers. I beleive all the pyramids were broken into and looted at some point, before modern archeology was developed.

Quote

Please cite your evidence for tomb theory other than a sarcophagus. Keep in mind that two sealed sarcophagi have been found. One in the giant trench of the unknown king, and the other at Saqqara ( Sekhemket). Not to mention Queen Hetepheres empty box in her shaft tomb at Giza.
There is an Open Sarcophagus in Khufu's pyramid. It clearly is a sarcophagus and damaged by looters also.
Posted Image

Quote

The lack of any type of tomb items in a pyramid suggests that they were not used for tombs.
Or, more appropriately and true, the lack of items indicates Looters.

Quote

Joyce Tyldesley states that the Great Pyramid itself "is known to have been opened and emptied by the Middle Kingdom", before the Arab caliph Abdullah al-Mamun entered the pyramid around AD 820.
http://en.wikipedia....Pyramid_of_Giza

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#242    Oniomancer

Oniomancer

    Soulless Minion Of Orthodoxy

  • Member
  • 3,200 posts
  • Joined:20 Jul 2008
  • Gender:Male

  • Question everything

Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:11 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 20 November 2011 - 01:24 AM, said:

A gallon equals 231 cubic inchs, so that would be around 1000 feet by 1000 feet and assume no losses. But, even if that happened and every drop was collected, it takes 2 liters just to survive, and 4 liters if physical activity is required. So assuming there was construction (Other pyramids) at Giza for 50 more years, then they'd need 30,000+ people. So just these people alone would require 120,000 liters a day. A gallon is 3.8 liters, so that 600,000 gallons would last 19 days. If we assume that they caught all 4 inches that we suspect they got and that there were only 10000 people building the complex, then we get 228 days, still not even enough for 10,000 people for a full year.

If it worked so well, we'd see all the hills around the Nile littered with these rain capturing enclosures, and the fact we don't would indicate that this theory is either untrue, or that the water was not just for regular consumption.
I was going to raise a point along these lines myself. It seems to me that given it's height and the fact that even with a reflectice stone like tura, the thing would make for a marvelous heat sink, you'd be getting a fair amount of evaporation before the rain ever reached the ground basin. And the one only covers 13 acres. The others, less, and feed into a comparitively small area. A bare fraction of the available real estate. It's be much more efficient both work expenditure wise and productivity wise to've made a "water farm" sort of arrangement of many much smaller sheltered structures over more area, to catch as much water as possible.

"Apparently the Lemurians drank Schlitz." - Intrepid "Real People" reporter on finding a mysterious artifact in the depths of Mount Shasta.

#243    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 8,910 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:27 AM

View Postpatrickgiles, on 18 November 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

Please cite your evidence for tomb theory other than a sarcophagus.
Am I the only one to see how ridiculous the above sounds? LOL

Please cite the evidence for your exiatence, other than your physical presence.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#244    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,442 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:57 AM

View Postpatrickgiles, on 18 November 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

Definitely tombs. You are definitely not a scientist. A true scientist relies on truth and evidence to support it. I dare you to cite 10 items total that have been found in all the Old Kingdom pyramids combined. I know you can't because I've done the research.

This comment was directed at Harte but I'd like to chime in. Your criteria of "all the Old Kingdom pyramids" gives us some nice leeway. Most scholars are in agreement that the human remains found in the burial chamber of the Step Pyramid are those of Djoser (1). The same is true for the human remains found in the burial chamber of the pyramid of Unis (2). I grant that most human remains found in other Old Kingdom pyramids are contested and believed to be from later, secondary burials, so I won't count them. We can also add sarcophagi to the list, whether or not you like them, and this alone would exceed your minimum of ten items. But let's move on.

Moreover, there are the Pyramid Texts inscribed into the chambers and corridors of the pyramids of Unis (3), Teti (4), Pepi I (5), Merenre (6), Pepi II (7), Queen Neith (8), and the pyramid of Queen Behenu (9), a secondary wife of Pepi II, whose inscribed burial chamber was found only several years ago in Saqqara. The Pyramid Texts were inscribed and addressed to each royal specifically and thus were made unique for each. Their funerary nature, many references to the place of burial, the burial chamber, burial equipment, and standard royal burial rituals of that period leave no doubt as to their intent and purpose. I would suggest consulting the translations conducted by Raymond Faulkner and especially those published by James Allen.

Then there are the Abusir papyri, found at the complexes of Neferirkare (10) and Neferefre (11). These papyri are critical for our understanding of the roles and functions of royal mortuary priests who worked in pyramid complexes for the cults of kings in the late Old Kingdom.

So in a couple of minutes of typing, and working just from memory, I was able to provide not ten but eleven examples demonstrating the mortuary roles of Old Kingdom pyramids. I imagine I could considerably expand this list were I interested in digging through my library for more examples, but I am not particularly interested at the moment. The above is sufficient and answers your challenge. However, should other posters have further examples, I'd be interested in seeing them, too.

Quote

Please cite your evidence for tomb theory other than a sarcophagus. Keep in mind that two sealed sarcophagi have been found...

You cannot ignore sarcophagi, as though somehow they can be removed from the list of evidence. They have to be addressed, observed, and understood for what they are and for why the Egyptians built them. I've already addressed this issue with cladking in Post 277 in the Analyze This discussion, so I needn't repeat myself. The question has been answered and the link is there to corroborate my argument. Suffice it to say, sarcophagi in not just royal tombs but numerous private tombs, some containing human remains, make it obvious what they were for.

Quote

Not to mention Queen Hetepheres empty box in her shaft tomb at Giza.

You might have shot yourself in the foot with this example. Yes, Hetepheres' sarcophagus in the shaft tomb did not contain her body, but you neglected to mention her canopic chest. It was found intact in the burial, and contained three of four of her eviscerated and mummified internal organs (Ikram & Dodson 1998: 110). The fourth did not survive. Her canopic chest is a widely known fact because it stands to this day as the oldest definitive evidence for the removal of internal organs in the mummification process.

In citing Hetepheres' sarcophagus, you probably should also have mentioned the fact that most Egyptologists are in agreement that her shaft burial at Giza is a secondary burial. Her original burial site is unknown but Meidum is widely argued; other family members of Sneferu were buried there. It's obvious the burial at Giza was secondary because everything about it was covert, as though a deliberate attempt was made to hide her burial equipment. It stands to reason her original tomb was thoroughly raided and her body perhaps destroyed; hence, the empty sarcophagus at Giza. Her shaft burial there was found entirely by accident.

Quote

The lack of any type of tomb items in a pyramid suggests that they were not used for tombs. Who are you? Zahi Hawass.


Harte is not Zahi Hawass. Nor am I. I don't consider Hawass a primary source for my own research in most cases, but aside from the bizarre and sometimes inappropriate things he has said in public interviews, his body of written work is solid and has contributed a lot to our knowledge of Giza and its monuments. A simple book he wrote is Mountains of the Pharaohs (2006) but I like it because the book contains more details than most other written material on the nature of the relief carvings and inscriptions of Khufu's temple structures. These reliefs and inscriptions are strictly funerary in nature, and make it clear the entire complex existed for the cult of the dead king.

Quote

I am willing to admit that the pyramids could have been used incidentally as cenotaphs. Perhaps for the burial of the ba spirit. That's why they were sealed. This also kept rainwater from seeping in. If it rained on a pyramid, the rain would go into the so-called mortuary temple. You will not be able to disprove this, so give it up. That's not a good place for embalming someone.

Some kings did make cenotaphs, although I am not aware off the top of my head of any definitive examples that predate the Middle Kingdom. If I am wrong, feel free to direct me to the proper information. But if the mortuary temple was used to collect water, why did they go through the time and expense to carve the reliefs and inscriptions on its walls? Why did they equip the mortuary temple with numerous chambers, not to mention a columned courtyard? Any why did they go through the time and expense to go to other quarries to cut a costly stone like basalt to pave the floor of the temple? This all seems like a hell of a lot of work for a purely utilitarian and prosaic giant stone bucket.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#245    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 7,043 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

    God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:14 AM

same as a hell of a lot of work just for a prosaic tiny stone coffin?

Just for the the sake of knockin' some heels out of stride, mind you
:)

Been a while last i saw a group hug

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#246    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,442 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:22 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 20 November 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:

same as a hell of a lot of work just for a prosaic tiny stone coffin?

Just for the the sake of knockin' some heels out of stride, mind you
:)

Been a while last i saw a group hug

Ah, but in the Egyptian mind there was nothing prosaic about coffins or sarcophagi.

There have been no group hugs for a while. They do not sit well with Harte and he refuses to join in, so it ain't the same.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#247    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,224 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:24 AM

Why would the pyramid be built as rain bucket,when they were trying to keep the water out after the flooding not from rain, but from building the cause ways, the cause ways were water canels from the nile to ship in the big stones


   http://earthmilkanci...rgy.com/ch4.htm


#248    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 7,043 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

    God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:28 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 20 November 2011 - 06:22 AM, said:

Ah, but in the Egyptian mind there was nothing prosaic about coffins or sarcophagi.

There have been no group hugs for a while. They do not sit well with Harte and he refuses to join in, so it ain't the same.

Heh, you just have to fill Mr Harte up with bucketfuls of beer, preferably giant stone buckets...

Top form as ever Sesh man, tip top i must say :tu:

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#249    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,442 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:14 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 November 2011 - 06:24 AM, said:

Why would the pyramid be built as rain bucket,when they were trying to keep the water out after the flooding not from rain, but from building the cause ways, the cause ways were water canels from the nile to ship in the big stones


   http://earthmilkanci...rgy.com/ch4.htm

I'm not sure I would put much stock in that page. Below is the topmost photo with description:

Quote

Posted Image

(69) Aerial photo of Giza Plateau. The dark blue represents the Nile. The red circles show a system of holes, shafts,
and deep wells. The yellow spots show large holes large enough to drop houses into. The wells and shafts that
permeate all around the pyramids have always been a great curiosity to me...

The dark blue would not be the Nile, which was off to the east. There were quays arrayed along the edge of the Plateau, but never that large. A quay fronted each valley temple and communicated with the Nile via a canal the Bronze Age workmen had cut. The red circles are not "holes, shafts, and deep wells" but mastaba fields. These were the tombs of royal family members and elite members of the courts of the kings buried in the main pyramids. The yellow spots are not large holes but individual mastaba tombs.

It gets a bit confusing, however, because then the author of the web page presents these photos and their description:

Quote

Posted Image

(70) Photo from the top of the Cheops pyramid. Red oval shows systems of elevated mounds with
rectangular holes open to the sky.

(71) Photo from top of Cheops looking south. Red oval shows more mounds.

So now, in these two closer shots, the author acknowledges that the yellow spots from the first photo are not holes "large enough to drop houses into" but elevated mounds with holes open to the sky. These are actually the mastaba tombs in somewhat closer detail. And as was the case with many mastaba tombs, the burial shafts started on their roofs and were chambered through the mass and masonry all the way down to the subterranean burial chambers.

There is more on the web page following the above but I don't think it's necessary to continue. The author of the web page is not using archaeological evidence or an argument framed from the culture that built these monuments, but is instead resorting to pure imagination. None of this is evidenced on the ground. It's altogether possible the original tracks of the causeways were used to transport stones up to the building sites, but that would've been it. Once the causeways were dressed, framed, inscribed, and in some cases possibly roofed, they would've been of no use for stone delivery. And no pyramid causeway of which I'm aware would've even been wide enough to fit the barges that hauled large masonry brought in from distant quarries.

Also remember that from the quays to the feet of the pyramids, the elevation rises. Such a scenario is not even possible.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#250    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,408 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:23 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 November 2011 - 06:24 AM, said:

Why would the pyramid be built as rain bucket,when they were trying to keep the water out after the flooding not from rain, but from building the cause ways, the cause ways were water canels from the nile to ship in the big stones.

http://earthmilkanci...rgy.com/ch4.htm

No they weren't either. This is quite easily evidenced by the fact that the Giza Plateau sits at about 200+ feet above sea level with the area just east of the plateau dropping to under 100 feet above sea level. The causeways descend in elevation from west to east. Even if there was water at the eastern end of any of the causeways, it would have NEVER made it to the pyramids.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#251    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,224 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:58 AM

How would the great pryamid have been flooded then. There are records that indicate that before the limestone surface of the Pyramids was stripped away, there was a salt water line that reached to about halfway up the Great Pyramid - about 240 feet.

Edited by docyabut2, 20 November 2011 - 12:00 PM.


#252    patrickgiles

patrickgiles

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 104 posts
  • Joined:14 Nov 2011

Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:31 PM

OK, so you're suggesting that every single scrap and fragment, every tiny bead, every speck of gold, every fragment of pottery, and every other tiny bit of evidence has been carefully picked and removed by tomb robbers. Do you really think robbers take pottery? Not usually. How about pieces of wood. Not usually. Perhaps a forensic team came in and somehow vacuumed the floor. Keep in mind, that the cracks between the floors have also been analyzed, and nothing--nothing was found. You have to rethink your claim. They may have been cenotaphs, and I am willing to admit that. But I doubt that anything was ever placed in the sarcophagus.


View PostDieChecker, on 20 November 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

It's called Tomb Robbers. I beleive all the pyramids were broken into and looted at some point, before modern archeology was developed.


There is an Open Sarcophagus in Khufu's pyramid. It clearly is a sarcophagus and damaged by looters also.
Posted Image


Or, more appropriately and true, the lack of items indicates Looters.


http://en.wikipedia....Pyramid_of_Giza



#253    patrickgiles

patrickgiles

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 104 posts
  • Joined:14 Nov 2011

Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:35 PM

I cannot support this contention. It just seems like the most logical way to build something. The wall would be in the way of construction. What ramps are you referring to? There is absolutely not evidence for large ramps at any of the pyramid sites. If you know of one, please tell me.

View Postcladking, on 19 November 2011 - 12:31 AM, said:

I don't believe you can support this contention.  

I believe it is strictly orthodox belief and is based solely on the observation it would be damaged by the ramps.



#254    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,224 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:35 PM

When the Great Pyramid was first opened, incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. While much of this salt is known to be natural exudation from the stones of the pyramid, chemical analysis has shown that some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. These salt incrustations, found at a height corresponding to the water level marks left on the exterior, are further evidence that at some time in the distant past the pyramid was submerged halfway up its height


#255    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,224 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:48 PM

They built waters canel hauling the stones from Aswan quarry, so why not also build canels to the sites of the pyramids. Its hard to believe the egyptains haul those large stones all the way from the nile.:)

  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/10/071024-ancient-egypt.html





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users