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A Well Supported Theory about Pyramids


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#196    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:32 AM

Yea a little more rain and effervescent puke will erupt from the ground.
You haven't even proven the minerals can be found. No outlet foe the geyser and zero evidence of any devices used in building.
I may be wrong and i might be IM 70% sure IM right but IM 100% sure cladkodoxy is wrong. In 20 years you'll give this up if we are lucky and know IM correct.

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."

#197    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:32 AM

View Postcladking, on 16 November 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

I don't knmow why I never considered this before but it's entirely possible
it was solely the decrease in rainfall
that caused the end to the geysers and
the great pyramid building age.  Perhaps the CO2 is still there being produced
but the water table in that region is too low to become carbonated.  

Maybe we're just a few good rain storms from Osiris coming back to life.

Not likely IMO as the decrease in rainfall had been ongoing for nearly 1000 years, by the time of the pyramids.

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#198    cladking

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:38 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 04:32 AM, said:

Not likely IMO as the decrease in rainfall had been ongoing for nearly 1000 years, by the time of the pyramids.


It was just an idle thought.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#199    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:49 AM

Actually it wasn't terrible to surmise what you did. And after learning more it appeared you understood. I don't think I have ever seen this from you. It doesn't mean you should not try to connect dots. In fact a lot of good learning comes from that very action. Keep it up and we may all enjoy learning together.

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#200    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:13 AM

View Postcladking, on 16 November 2011 - 04:38 AM, said:

It was just an idle thought.

Would still be interested in a citation to support your 4" annual rainfall claim, as everything I've come across suggests there hasn't been any approaching that quantity since at least 3500 BC.

cormac

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#201    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:18 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 05:13 AM, said:

Would still be interested in a citation to support your 4" annual rainfall claim, as everything I've come across suggests there hasn't been any approaching that quantity since at least 3500 BC.


I'm still looking and still not finding much but what I am
finding supports the idea that rainfall was higher during the
old kingdom;

"Recent evidence suggests that a sudden and short-lived climatic shift between 2200 and 2100 BCE occurred in the region between Tibet and Iceland, with some evidence suggesting a global change. The result was a cooling and reduction in precipitation. This is believed to be a primary cause of the collapse of the Old Kingdom of Egypt.[11]"

http://en.wikipedia....perature_record

What I've really been looking for is proof that oryx were being
hunted in the pyramid building age since this would be mare than
adequate proof of higher rainfall.  All I've found so far is good
indication that they weren't extinct in Egypt in 1900 BC.  

Oryx, gazelles and other grazers are mentioned extensively as living
in the desert in the Pyramid Texts.  This certainly implies they were
there and hunted and that rainfall was higher.  

I haven't given up finding something definitive yet.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#202    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:27 AM

View Postcladking, on 18 November 2011 - 12:18 AM, said:

I'm still looking and still not finding much but what I am
finding supports the idea that rainfall was higher during the
old kingdom;

"Recent evidence suggests that a sudden and short-lived climatic shift between 2200 and 2100 BCE occurred in the region between Tibet and Iceland, with some evidence suggesting a global change. The result was a cooling and reduction in precipitation. This is believed to be a primary cause of the collapse of the Old Kingdom of Egypt.[11]"

http://en.wikipedia....perature_record

What I've really been looking for is proof that oryx were being
hunted in the pyramid building age since this would be mare than
adequate proof of higher rainfall.  All I've found so far is good
indication that they weren't extinct in Egypt in 1900 BC.  

Oryx, gazelles and other grazers are mentioned extensively as living
in the desert in the Pyramid Texts.  This certainly implies they were
there and hunted and that rainfall was higher.  

I haven't given up finding something definitive yet.

This much is already known cladking, as the already low amount of rainfall at the time was lowered even further and caused the drought in Egypt c.2160 BC, ending the Old Kingdom. This is one of the MANY facts that runs contrary to Alewyn's presentation of the Old Kingdom collapse, and other allegedly associated collapses in Eurasia in 2193/2194 BC. Don't give up though if you think you can find the citation.  :tu:

cormac

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#203    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:29 AM

OK, here's something slightly better;

SAHARA
(dates in Guo et al are given in 14C years ago on the left, approximate calibrated of 'real' dates are given on the right)

Moist  (10,400-9,100 ya)
Slight drying  (9,100-8,900 ya)
Moist  (8,900-7,900 ya)
Moderately dry  (7,900-6,500 ya)
Moist  (6,500-4,500 ya)..................[4500 BC to 2500 BC]
Very dry - as dry as at present  (4,500-4,100 ya)
Slightly moister than present (4,100-3,700 ya)
After (3,700 ya). Remaining about as dry as at present

http://www.esd.ornl....nercAFRICA.html

I'll study this site a little more closely as time allows.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#204    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:54 AM

View Postcladking, on 18 November 2011 - 12:29 AM, said:

OK, here's something slightly better;

SAHARA
(dates in Guo et al are given in 14C years ago on the left, approximate calibrated of 'real' dates are given on the right)

Moist  (10,400-9,100 ya)
Slight drying  (9,100-8,900 ya)
Moist  (8,900-7,900 ya)
Moderately dry  (7,900-6,500 ya)
Moist  (6,500-4,500 ya)..................[4500 BC to 2500 BC]
Very dry - as dry as at present  (4,500-4,100 ya)
Slightly moister than present (4,100-3,700 ya)
After (3,700 ya). Remaining about as dry as at present

http://www.esd.ornl....nercAFRICA.html

I'll study this site a little more closely as time allows.

Which, if you read further, is in reference more toward the Western and Southern Sahara. Also, as far as I can tell, this site hasn't been updated in almost 10 years (2002).

cormac

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#205    rich1051414

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:11 AM

While i agree that the pyramids doubled as a water catch, i think it was more of an ancient gutter system like we use today, only due to the lack of water, they used to there advantage. As far as why the pyramids were built, I personally think it is very obvious.

Why do we build skyscrapers? What makes a city scream power and wealth above all else? Huge buildings. As to why they chose a pyramid i think had to do with a couple of factors. They knew the pyramid shape is extremely strong, and it's strength was enforced by there own religious beliefs. The pyramid was a tool to represent how successful they were as a people, and that much is apparent even to this day.

As to how the pyramids were built, i think some people forget that the people who built the pyramids are the same as use, same intelligence, same everything. Although they did not have modern technology to help them, human ingenuity and hard work can achieve more than many will realize.

Back in the times they were built, it was important to instill intimidation into countries who would benefit from your riches, and there is no better way to let them know they are over their head than to have massive structures such as pyramids.

The last 'mystery' is what they were used for. I do not think a burial chamber even makes sense. It's like using the statue of liberty as a graveyard. I think the pyramids were used as a meeting place, either for religious services or as a form of a city hall. They would of seen there pyramids as sacred based on there beliefs. They knew the shape of a pyramid would last through the ages, and was the same reason they embalmed there dead. They knew their life was short, but immortality could be achieved not literally, but through the mark they leave in the short life they have.
I believe that is all there is to the mystery of the pyramids.


#206    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 02:27 AM

View Postrich1051414, on 18 November 2011 - 02:11 AM, said:

While i agree that the pyramids doubled as a water catch, i think it was more of an ancient gutter system like we use today, only due to the lack of water, they used to there advantage. As far as why the pyramids were built, I personally think it is very obvious.

Many of the mastabas at Giza have what are essentially rain gutters. While
I believe these might be distinct from the water catchment at the pyramid it
does indicate that rain was on the builders' minds.  

Quote

Why do we build skyscrapers? What makes a city scream power and wealth above all else? Huge buildings. As to why they chose a pyramid i think had to do with a couple of factors. They knew the pyramid shape is extremely strong, and it's strength was enforced by there own religious beliefs. The pyramid was a tool to represent how successful they were as a people, and that much is apparent even to this day.

Sure.  This was probably a factor.  

Quote

As to how the pyramids were built, i think some people forget that the people who built the pyramids are the same as use, same intelligence, same everything. Although they did not have modern technology to help them, human ingenuity and hard work can achieve more than many will realize.

I have to disagree.  Until we know how they were built we don't know
how much hard work nor how much ingenuity went into them.  I do agree
it obviously took a lot of both but would suggest it was mostly the
latter.  

Quote

The last 'mystery' is what they were used for. I do not think a burial chamber even makes sense. It's like using the statue of liberty as a graveyard.

I agree fairly strongly.  While a burial chamber shouldn't be ruled
out the evidence for it is weak.  

Quote

I think the pyramids were used as a meeting place, either for religious services or as a form of a city hall.

Excellent point.  Thisa is where the w3g-festival was held each year.  
What easier directions could be provided than "over at yonder pyramid".  

Quote

They would of seen there pyramids as sacred based on there beliefs.

This seems to be largely conjecture.  We simply don't know anything
about the culture and orthodox beliefs are based on interpretations
of anachronistic writings.  

Quote

They knew the shape of a pyramid would last through the ages, and was the same reason they embalmed there dead. They knew their life was short, but immortality could be achieved not literally, but through the mark they leave in the short life they have.
I believe that is all there is to the mystery of the pyramids.

...well, other than the unknowns which include prit near everything. :)

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#207    Harte

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:04 PM

View Postrich1051414, on 18 November 2011 - 02:11 AM, said:

Why do we build skyscrapers? What makes a city scream power and wealth above all else? Huge buildings.
While you might actually hold that opinion, I suppose, it certainly has nothing to do with why skyscrapers are built.

View Postrich1051414, on 18 November 2011 - 02:11 AM, said:

The last 'mystery' is what they were used for. I do not think a burial chamber even makes sense. It's like using the statue of liberty as a graveyard. I think the pyramids were used as a meeting place, either for religious services or as a form of a city hall.

A meeting place with a sealed entrance and a mortuary temple attached?

No, sorry, they were definitely tombs.

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#208    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 06:46 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 06 November 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

Is this really supposed to be serious? Aren't there enough nutball Great Pyramid ideas as it is? So now we can add "rain catchment" to the mix.

There are two obvious things that immediately discount the entire idea:

  • Climatological studies of the Giza Plateau establish that even by the time of Khufu the area was desert. Although it does rain in Egypt, then as now torrential rainstorms generally occur only once or twice in a decade. So the Great Pyramid as a "rain catchment" would represent a colossal cost of resources and manpower on behalf of the state to achieve something that would function only rarely at best.

  • This point is even more salient. The model in the video, as well made as it is, shows all of this water flowing down through the causeway to collect in what the videographer refers to as the "cistern." In normal circles this "cistern" is known as the valley temple, something integral to almost all pyramid complexes. Only remnants of Khufu's valley temple have been excavated due to modern urban sprawl. But the truly funny thing is, the videographer seems to think all of this colossal effort was required to collect water into a "cistern"--when several feet to the east was  a huge water-filled quay the workmen had created to channel the Nile to the Plateau.

In other words, an entirely wasted effort. As it is, although Khufu's causeway is in ruins, those at other pyramid complexes are well preserved. Such is the case with the Unis pyramid complex. His causeway was made with carefully dressed and beautifully inscribed limestone masonry, but there's certainly nothing to suggest it's watertight. That's just silly. In all honesty, had such vast amounts of rain spilled down into Khufu's causeway, almost all of the water would've drained out through the joins between the blocks of masonry probably long before reaching the valley temple.

Plenty of people like to play with all sorts of bizarre ideas about the Great Pyramid, when in fact very few of these people seem to know anything meaningful about the wider context of the Plateau around it. Had this videographer even bothered to read something as simple and basic as Lehner's The Complete Pyramids, he would've realized there was no reason to develop his idea beyond his earliest thought processes. There's even a pretty overlay on Pages 110 and 115 which shows how the quay may have looked in front of Khafre's pyramid. All of the quays are archaeologically attested, including Khufu's.

And please, cladking, do not misrepresent Mr. Petrie. He did not believe the Great Pyramid had been built as a "rain catchment." :rolleyes:


Obviously, you have not been to Egypt. Believe me, when you look at the Unis causeway (aqueduct) and feel the joints in the stones(which are also mortared), you can see that they are water tight. There is no doubt. Where did you get that? Actually, climate studies by Farak Hassan and Mark Lehner have both confirmed the occurrence of significant rainfall during the Old Kingdom. Please quote your source of climate studies.And by the way, you can forget about any studies that were done before 10 years ago. They're already antiquated. As far as the water-filled quay. You have missed the point, which is that no one would drink the Nile River, which filled the quay. I've read the Complete Pyramids, and I used it extensively. This is a very basic book with a lot of information, but it is not up to date because Lehner is unaware of the Pyramid Rain Catchment Theory.Are you like ten years old? You sound close minded and under-educated. But thanks for the comment. It's inspiring.


#209    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 07:00 PM

View PostDjedi, on 07 November 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

There is no such thing as a water catchment device at Giza or at the other "great pyramids" sites.
Mortuary temple, causeway and valey temple as part of such a device is just silly, water doesn't mix very well with limestone reliefs you know...

Mortuary temple, causeway, valey temple and enclosure wall didn't predate the pyramid, the pyramid was constructed first.
Red pyramid: no causeway, no valey temple, small mortuary temple finished in mudbrick. Menkaure's mortuary temple was also finished in mudbick. Mudbrick and water are an even worse mix than limestone and water.

The whole subject is a non starter, there's not a shred of evidence to support it; to the contrary, the evidence doesn't leave any room for such a silly notion.


Excellent points. I'm glad you brought them up. There were many carved relief sculptures inside the structures associated with a pyramid. Howver, they were protected by water in two way. One, they were always painted above the water line (3 to 4 feet). They were also painted with water-resistant paint (wax base)that could endure water for many years. Why did you mention the stuff about the construction dates of various structures? Next, I will refer you to the Complete Pyramids by Lehner, in which he shows how some of the pyramid complexes were incomplete when the king died and stopped funding the project. The Red Pyramid had an amazing "Mortuary Temple", but all that is left is the foundations. Google the pictures online. There are remnants of a causeway at this site, as well, although the valley temple is not excavated. Read the research a little closer than you have been, and you will find that the Pyreamid Rain Catchment Theory is solid as a rock. Menkaura's mort temp was unfinished when he died, but was building it out of stone entirely up to that point. It would have been used to catch rainwater, but Shepseskaf finished it with mudbrik, instead. Not a shred of evidence? You gotta be crazy to make a statement like that. A 30 foot stone wall surrounded almost every pyramid. Where did the water go? According to Hawass and many others, there was only one exit or entrance in the those walls. It led directly into the mortuary temple.


#210    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 07:08 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 15 November 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Welcome to UM, patrickgiles.

Don't be surprised if we skeptics poke fun. We're skeptical for a reason--about pretty much every alternative theme.

I don't have time right now to devote an in-depth rebuttal to your own rain-catchment idea, but for the moment suffice it to say I think you're either missing or ignoring huge amounts of architectural, cultural, archaeological, and inscriptional evidence that reveal to us the intended nature of these monuments. Cladking will side with you because he enjoys practically any idea that goes against orthodoxy, but every theme cladking has proposed has been roundly disproved in many different discussions at UM.  I'd take care in choosing your allies. It's one thing to dislike orthodox theories but something completely different to disprove them. To date, no alternative or fringe theme has had any effect on orthodox history.

In any case, for the moment I just wanted to comment on the above. While it remains probable based on extant evidence that the Egyptians invented the fermented product we call beer, it's quite an exaggeration to suggest they avoided water. Yes, beer was safe to drink, but it also contained many nutrients and calories, and that was its primary importance--it was an energy food and, along with bread, a staple of the diet.

But of course they drank plenty of water, and no doubt more so than beer. While the Egyptians did use wells, most of the drinking water still came from the Nile. There is no doubting this. There is a reason, after all, that schistosomiasis was one of the leading killers in the pharaonic population. Paleopathologists examining well-preserved human intestines have found within them the "mummified" parasites that led to severe and often fatal dysentery.

Also bear in mind that throughout the length of the pyramid age, the landscape of Egypt was already desert. In fact, it rains there more today than it would have in c. 2500 BCE. The average rain back then wouldn't have done more than dampen the masonry and paving stones of the pyramids. Torrential rainstorms occurred maybe once or twice in a decade, so the sort of project for which you're arguing would've represented a colossal amount of labor for very, very little result.

You're quite wrong about the ecosystem of Giza during the Old Kindgom. There was a wetter climate for sure. I could cite a lot of stuff, but I'd rather direct to to Farak Hassan's website on pollen analysis. Google it. Also, check out the research by the Oriental Institute of Chicago. They have also proven that a lot of rainfall once flooded the plateau. Where did you get your outdated climate info? Weak argument. No one is saying that the Nile was not used for beer. I'm saying the drank rainwater.





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