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A Well Supported Theory about Pyramids


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#211    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:08 PM

Quote

According to the deficiency of occupation
sites, regular monsoonal rains have ceased to reach
the Egyptian Sahara not later than 5300 B.C.E.

and

Quote

After 3500 B.C.E., rains ceased
even in ecological niches such as the Gilf Kebir,
and permanent occupation was restricted to
southern areas such as Laqiya (34) and Wadi
Howar in Northern Sudan (fig. S2E).

Source:  Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara:
Motor of Africa’s Evolution (www.sciencemag.org SCIENCE VOL 313 11 AUGUST 2006)

Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kropelin

Edit to add:  To patrickgiles, just so you don't embarass yourself in the future Kmt_sesh happens to work at the Oriental Institute, amongst other places.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 18 November 2011 - 08:13 PM.

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#212    Oniomancer

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:26 PM

View Postpatrickgiles, on 18 November 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

Excellent points. I'm glad you brought them up. There were many carved relief sculptures inside the structures associated with a pyramid. Howver, they were protected by water in two way. One, they were always painted above the water line (3 to 4 feet). They were also painted with water-resistant paint (wax base)that could endure water for many years. Why did you mention the stuff about the construction dates of various structures? Next, I will refer you to the Complete Pyramids by Lehner, in which he shows how some of the pyramid complexes were incomplete when the king died and stopped funding the project. The Red Pyramid had an amazing "Mortuary Temple", but all that is left is the foundations. Google the pictures online. There are remnants of a causeway at this site, as well, although the valley temple is not excavated. Read the research a little closer than you have been, and you will find that the Pyreamid Rain Catchment Theory is solid as a rock. Menkaura's mort temp was unfinished when he died, but was building it out of stone entirely up to that point. It would have been used to catch rainwater, but Shepseskaf finished it with mudbrik, instead. Not a shred of evidence? You gotta be crazy to make a statement like that. A 30 foot stone wall surrounded almost every pyramid. Where did the water go? According to Hawass and many others, there was only one exit or entrance in the those walls. It led directly into the mortuary temple.
Inside a sealed channel, where no-one can see them? (unlike a temple passage as used by a veneration cult) This is starting to sound more and more like a waterpark slide...

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#213    DieChecker

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:23 PM

View Postpatrickgiles, on 18 November 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

You're quite wrong about the ecosystem of Giza during the Old Kindgom. There was a wetter climate for sure. I could cite a lot of stuff, but I'd rather direct to to Farak Hassan's website on pollen analysis. Google it. Also, check out the research by the Oriental Institute of Chicago. They have also proven that a lot of rainfall once flooded the plateau. Where did you get your outdated climate info? Weak argument. No one is saying that the Nile was not used for beer. I'm saying the drank rainwater.
Since there is evidence of near on 1/2 to 1 million people living along the Nile in this part of the Old Kingdom, I'd be curious as to what most of them drank? Even if there was 4" annual rainfall on Giza, that is only enough for the nearby people for a couple weeks. The idea they did not drink from the Nile is very ignorant.

Even in the last decades Egyptians used river/canal water over well water.

Quote

At the local level, a study on water and sanitation in two villages in the Nile Delta conducted in the late 1980s provides some insights into water use and hygiene behavior in rural areas at the time. The inhabitants had access to three water sources: piped water from household connections or public standpipes; shallow wells with handpumps; and canal water. Canals were used by many women for laundry and washing domestic utensils, and for cleaning vegetables and grain. Women preferred canal water to groundwater because canal water was softer and was not brackish.
http://en.wikipedia....tation_in_Egypt

The implication being that they didn't understand about disease being spread in the water, even in the 1980's. The idea they would not drink Nile water 4000+ years ago is almost laughable.

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#214    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:36 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 November 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

and



Source:  Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara:
Motor of Africa’s Evolution (www.sciencemag.org SCIENCE VOL 313 11 AUGUST 2006)

Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kropelin

Edit to add:  To patrickgiles, just so you don't embarass yourself in the future Kmt_sesh happens to work at the Oriental Institute, amongst other places.

cormac


How am I embarrassing myself? Have you actually read the research from the Oriental Institute regarding rainwater floods on the Giza Plateau? You probably should. I think it was 2001 or around that time that they discovered evidence of intense floods that caused major washes across the plateau. In fact, these washes were responsible for destroying certain parts of Menkaura's mortuary temple. They also found evidence on the Wall of the Crow. In fact, there were massive mudflows that banked against the north side of the wall. They also found evidence for large mollusk colonies that depend on rainwater behind Khafra'a pyramid. You sound like an elitist. I've done the research. Have you? I challenge you to any debate on this subject. I will read the article you mentioned. You should google Farrak Hassan's pollen analysis of the Old Kingdom.It describes a much wetter ecosystem than what is accepted. Have you ever heard of the Wet Holocene Phase in the Sahara? Rainwater begins to decrease around 3200 BCE. It slowly begins to end as the Old Kingdom continues, and it finally stops around 2200 BCE. This is when the last Old Kingdom pyramid was built.


#215    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:47 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 18 November 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

Inside a sealed channel, where no-one can see them? (unlike a temple passage as used by a veneration cult) This is starting to sound more and more like a waterpark slide...

It was lit from the roof through slits, so they could be seen. The presence of reliefs was not common to all the pyramid complexes.They probably represent the wealth of a king rather than practicality. Some of them represented boats, which could symbolically sail on the river of water in the aqueduct. By the way, very few people were allowed inside a pyramid complex without cleansing themselves properly. This is documented.It doesn't matter who saw the relief sculpture. A water park slide? How so?


#216    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:53 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 15 November 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

Right? No one would drink contaminated river water today, because everyone knows about micro-organisms. But the Ancient Egyptians would have had no idea of this, and perhaps would have collected river water, let it settle the silt and then drank it. There is no reason to doubt they did. Indeed even today, millions drink water from the Ganges right from the river. They bath in it, wash their clothes in it, bath their animals in it, toss the remains of their dead into it, use it for making their food, drink it directly, ect... even today.


That is what I had thought.

Maybe patrickgiles has some evidence of more intensive rain in that region during that time period?


Read the website of Farrak Hassan. He has done pollen analysis and discovered a lot of evidence for a wet climate during the Old Kingdom. So has the website of the Oriental Institute in Chicago. There was a time called the Holocene Wet Phase, which was ending during the Old Kingdom. It meant that rains were still there. The pyramids were built to catch rainwater for large populations.


#217    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:55 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 15 November 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

Rain is the main hole in his theory, so let's see if he responds.  :yes:


I have an entire chapter in my book devoted to climate studies. Where do I start? Farrak Hassan.


#218    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:02 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 15 November 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

The subject of rainfall in Ancient Egypt and North Africa has already been discussed and the evidence DOES NOT support the contention of any such 'rain catchment' device.



Posted Image

Source: Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africa’s Evolution by Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kropelin (www.sciencemag.org SCIENCE VOL 313 11 AUGUST 2006)

Also, welcome to UM.

Edit because the link to my previous post wasn't working.

cormac
This is a very general study that does not take into account all the evidence. There is so much evidence for rainfall that I could site. In fact, the Oriental Institute has proven it. Look at their research. If it rained only one inch on the great pyramid, it would capture nearly 700,000 gallons of water.This is a fact that cannot be disputed by anyone of any scholarship. Where did the water go? There is only one exit in the enclosure wall that surrouned the pyramid, and it went directly into the mortuary building. You can't disprove my theory with one climate study. Mark Lehner stated many times that there were not openings in the entire enclosure wall except for the entrance to the Mort. Try to debunk that.


#219    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:21 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 15 November 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Cladking will side with you because he enjoys practically any idea that goes against orthodoxy, but every theme cladking has proposed has been roundly disproved in many different discussions at UM...  ... It's one thing to dislike orthodox theories but something completely different to disprove them. To date, no alternative or fringe theme has had any effect on orthodox history.

I probably should have responded to this but since Patrick Giles has I now
feel compelled.  First off what should be obvious to anyone is that I don't
believe any part of my theory has been dispelled by orthodox thinking or
knowledge.  If it were it would already have been discarded as many older
parts of the theory have.  

Secondly while it's true that I tend to side with any fringe thinker that
I can for strategic reasons, I most assuredly don't side with ideas that are
obviously wrong or incorrect facts.  I called this theory "well supported"
because it is a theory that has ample evidence to show that it is correct in
whole or in part.  I believe that the evidence strongly supports the idea that
the great pyramids did in fact collect rain water and quite possibly other wa-
ter as well.  That the were designed to do this is also apparent even if this
might be much less likely to be their primary function.  

I believe it's far more true to say that I've severely weakened the orthodox
assumptions.  Indeed, the assumption that the great pyramids were built with
ramps is virtually debunked.  There just aren't much of any ramping systems
that survive the physical evidence.  Orthodoxy has painted themselves into a
corner with ramps and have no way out.  They can't just keep throwing up their
hands and saying that "we know they used some ramp system" because they are
all debunked.  

Here's a question for Patrick Giles;  Assuming the evidence that the rain/ wa-
ter catchment was built first is relevant do you believe it's likely they would
have completely filled the catchment with ramps in order to build the pyramid
and lose this water supply for twenty years?  

I believe the answer has to be "NO" and this essentially eliminates Lehner's
ramp from consideration and leaves only Houdin's ramps as possible.  These will
be disproven in the near future in all probability and ramps will be completely
eliminated as a possible means of having built great pyramids.  Maybe then we
can start looking for how they were actually built.

Edited by cladking, 18 November 2011 - 10:51 PM.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#220    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:41 PM

View PostHarte, on 18 November 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

While you might actually hold that opinion, I suppose, it certainly has nothing to do with why skyscrapers are built.

Expensive land is the primary driver of building tall but this didn't apply in
the 4th dynasty desert.  

Quote

A meeting place with a sealed entrance and a mortuary temple attached?

No, sorry, they were definitely tombs.


They were a meeting place and this is established fact and even mentioned in
the Pyramid Texts.  There is no direct evidence that they were tombs.  While
there are some facts that suggest a funerary purpose the strenght of the argu-
ment against it appears stronger.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#221    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:46 PM

Quote

Have you actually read the research from the Oriental Institute regarding rainwater floods on the Giza Plateau?


These are floods of the Nile, which is known to have significantly moved eastward since 2600 BC, having been much closer to the Giza Plateau at that time.

Quote

I think it was 2001 or around that time that they discovered evidence of intense floods that caused major washes across the plateau.

Incorrect, they found that quays may have been closer to the Plateau than previously believed, the Nile as I've mentioned definitely was.

Quote

There is so much evidence for rainfall that I could site.

And yet you've not done so in support of your claims and it is your responsible to do so here at UM. And yes, I've read quite alot concerning climatology and the Giza Plateau and it doesn't support your contentions.

cormac

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#222    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:49 PM

View Postpatrickgiles, on 18 November 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

Excellent points. I'm glad you brought them up. There were many carved relief sculptures inside the structures associated with a pyramid. Howver, they were protected by water in two way. One, they were always painted above the water line (3 to 4 feet). They were also painted with water-resistant paint (wax base)that could endure water for many years. Why did you mention the stuff about the construction dates of various structures? Next, I will refer you to the Complete Pyramids by Lehner, in which he shows how some of the pyramid complexes were incomplete when the king died and stopped funding the project. The Red Pyramid had an amazing "Mortuary Temple", but all that is left is the foundations. Google the pictures online. There are remnants of a causeway at this site, as well, although the valley temple is not excavated. Read the research a little closer than you have been, and you will find that the Pyreamid Rain Catchment Theory is solid as a rock. Menkaura's mort temp was unfinished when he died, but was building it out of stone entirely up to that point. It would have been used to catch rainwater, but Shepseskaf finished it with mudbrik, instead. Not a shred of evidence? You gotta be crazy to make a statement like that. A 30 foot stone wall surrounded almost every pyramid. Where did the water go? According to Hawass and many others, there was only one exit or entrance in the those walls. It led directly into the mortuary temple.


I appreciate all this info.  

It's always nice to get a fresh perspective of the facts.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#223    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:00 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 18 November 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

Since there is evidence of near on 1/2 to 1 million people living along the Nile in this part of the Old Kingdom, I'd be curious as to what most of them drank? Even if there was 4" annual rainfall on Giza, that is only enough for the nearby people for a couple weeks. The idea they did not drink from the Nile is very ignorant.

Well... ...figure 7,000 for a year.  

But I agree that's not much water.  

Quote

Even in the last decades Egyptians used river/canal water over well water.

http://en.wikipedia....tation_in_Egypt

The implication being that they didn't understand about disease being spread in the water, even in the 1980's. The idea they would not drink Nile water 4000+ years ago is almost laughable.


The link doesn't support your contention.

If the water is bad enough it wouldn't matter if they knew it was bad or not
because they simply couldn't have lived here.  

There's little doubt they know that the worse the water was the more people
who got sick.  People aren't really very observant but when family is dropping
dead they will put two and two together.  

One of the oldest and deepest wells in the world is nearly a stones throw from
the Giza Plateau.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#224    cladking

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:02 PM

View Postpatrickgiles, on 18 November 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

You're quite wrong about the ecosystem of Giza during the Old Kindgom. There was a wetter climate for sure. I could cite a lot of stuff, but I'd rather direct to to Farak Hassan's website on pollen analysis. Google it. Also, check out the research by the Oriental Institute of Chicago. They have also proven that a lot of rainfall once flooded the plateau. Where did you get your outdated climate info? Weak argument. No one is saying that the Nile was not used for beer. I'm saying the drank rainwater.

Would you be so kind asto provide a link.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#225    patrickgiles

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:12 PM

View Postcladking, on 18 November 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

I probably should have responded to this but since Patrick Giles has I now
feel compelled.  First off what should be obvious to anyone is that I don't
believe any part of my theory has been dispelled by orthodox thinking or
knowledge.  If it were it would already have been discarded as many older
parts of the theory have.  

Secondly while it's true that I tend to side with any fringe thinker that
I can for strategic reasons, I most assuredly don't side with ideas that are
obviously wrong or incorrect facts.  I called this theory "well supported"
because it is a theory that has ample evidence to show that it is correct in
whole or in part.  I believe that the evidence strongly supports the idea that
the great pyramids did in fact collect rain water and quite possibly other wa-
ter as well.  That the were designed to do this is also apparent even if this
might be much less likely to be their primary function.  

I believe it's far more true to say that I've severely weakened the orthodox
assumptions.  Indeed, the assumption that the great pyramids were built with
ramps is virtually debunked.  There just aren't much of any ramping systems
that survive the physical evidence.  Orthodoxy has painted themselves into a
corner with ramps and have no way out.  They can't just keep throwing up their
hands and saying that "we know they used some ramp system" because they are
all debunked.  

Here's a question for Patrick Giles;  Assuming the evidence that the rain/ wa-
ter catchment was built first is relevant do you believe it's likely they would
have completely filled the catchment with ramps in order to build the pyramid
and lose this water supply for twenty years?  

I believe the answer has to be "NO" and this essentially eliminates Lehner's
ramp from consideration and leaves only Houdin's ramps as possible.  These will
be disproven in the near future in all probability and ramps will be completely
eliminated as a possible means of having built great pyramids.  Maybe then we
can start looking for how they were actually built.

They had other pyramid complexes that were already catching rainwater, such as  Sneferu's and others such as roof top rain catchments on houses. There  was certainly a desire to save the rainwater that fell on any pyramid while it was being built, but it was probably not a  huge consideration. They actually made a  smaller pyramid rain catchment before they started work at the same site. These are  referred to a satellite or queen's pyramids. They have cisterns below  their foundations that held the water.  The enclosure walls of the catchment basin around the pyramid were the last thing built, so I guess they lost the water. As far as ramps go, Houdin theory is more likely correct than Lehner's, but Houdin's theory only works for the great pyramid of Khufu so far. How did they build Khafra's without an internal ramp? Or is there one.





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