62 replies to this topic

[HawkLord]

Faith is all well and good except when it gets in the way of common sense. If GOD wanted to heal people through such charlatans then he wouldnt of given us doctors and the ability to find the needed medical knowledge now would he.

[Swamptick]

Another Christian bashing article. Stuff like this goes on ALL the time in Islam but NOBODY will talk about that. You all disgust me.

[diablo_04]

When people   are dying, they lose little bit of rationality, and they are willing to try anything to be cured..they have nothing to lose, thy are dying never the less.  Its are instinct to never give up

[HawkLord]

Swamptick, on 26 November 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

Another Christian bashing article. Stuff like this goes on ALL the time in Islam but NOBODY will talk about that. You all disgust me.

I have no need to bash any religion as they all have at their basis a guide on how to live a good life. My problem is with those members who are the minority that use religion as an excuse to justify their own agendas of hate and greed.

[FurthurBB]

Swamptick, on 26 November 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

Another Christian bashing article. Stuff like this goes on ALL the time in Islam but NOBODY will talk about that. You all disgust me.

Oh, so sorry that people are always bashing the man.  You disgust me.

[Mr Right Wing]

HawkLord, on 26 November 2011 - 01:07 PM, said:

Faith is all well and good except when it gets in the way of common sense. If GOD wanted to heal people through such charlatans then he wouldnt of given us doctors and the ability to find the needed medical knowledge now would he.

I'm not so sure.

Its sounds like they are curing people with the placebo effect by playing a God confidence trick.

I wonder if the success rate is above 0%? You do realise it might be?

[Purplos]

Wouldn't instructing people to stop taking medications be practicing medicine without a license? Surely that's against the law.

[Copasetic]

Mr Right Wing, on 26 November 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:

I'm not so sure.

Its sounds like they are curing people with the placebo effect by playing a God confidence trick.

I wonder if the success rate is above 0%? You do realise it might be?

The placebo effect doesn't work on HIV. You can't will your CD4 counts back up and without your CD4 cells you fight a loosing battle against any infection that requires T-mediated immunity.

The placebo effect only works on "diseases" with a subjective outcome, like "pain healing", etc. And even then, the results are so weak that it is ethically and morally wrong to ever try and use the placebo effect in medicine.

Edited by Copasetic, 26 November 2011 - 04:06 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Swamptick, on 26 November 2011 - 01:19 PM, said:

Another Christian bashing article. Stuff like this goes on ALL the time in Islam but NOBODY will talk about that. You all disgust me.

Awww shucks you're just saying that... I think we are horrible to say thing like -  People who are not doctors have no rights to tell others to stop taking meds that will help them...who are we to do that..??...Better still who are we to say what we think...??
...  We should all say -  Hey isnt it lovely and grand to tell people to no longer take their meds that could save their lives and put themselves at risk...Because we should ALL accept and love the fact that they do this in another culture too.. so forget about your moral opinions... Just go with the flow...

Sorry no can do... If you are not a doctor then you have no right to tell anyone to stay away from their meds...and I do not care if it happens in another culture.. Just because some other culture does it, doesn't mean we all should say its great and accept it.. We have a right to say how these things make us feel and we are not obligated to accept how things are done elsewhere

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 26 November 2011 - 04:24 PM.

[Blue Lizard]

Normally I believe that doctors need to be able to do their job. Doctors exist for a reason, and so we should try to get all the help we can and not get in their way.

However, I am not sure what I believe in this situation. There is no cure, or at least something that is well studied and affordable, for HIV. So all the patients would have got is more time and that time would be spent lying in a hospital in pain depending on others for everything and without clear sight. It is pretty much waiting in bed to watch your body fail and being degraded at the same time in many different ways. They are just waiting for their slow painful and inevitable death in almost all cases.

I have seen people die painfully that way and I have decided for myself that I rather die early than degrade myself and endure all the pain for a few extra months. I would go for alternative ways that would let me die in a peaceful manner, even if it means taking a few months off my life. If that means depending on religion for some people, then that is what we should respect.

In short, if we could help them then that would be a different case. However, we can only put them in bed for some more time and they will be in pain that entire time.

So can we bash religion? No we cannot and it is just pathetic. It is their lives and we need to respect their choices especially when we don't have a cure they could use and our method is painful. So stop finding reasons to bash religion.

[Beckys_Mom]

Blue Lizard, on 26 November 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:

So can we bash religion? No we cannot and it is just pathetic.

No one is bashing religion here... People are giving their honest views on how wrong it is to tell someone to stop taking meds that could help them....  No one has that right... This is not about the religion, it is about people taking it upon themselves to act like they know faith is the only way...  With the amount of stories you read on faith prayers allowing people to suffer without no medication and later to suffer and die as a result, is too tragic

If faith prayers did seriously work, there would be no need for doctors at all.. but see that is not the case. So please stop trying to make this out as if people are bashing religion, they are not... Remove the religion and you have a bunch of people still trying to do what they have no right to do

[Rlyeh]

Blue Lizard, on 26 November 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:

Normally I believe that doctors need to be able to do their job. Doctors exist for a reason, and so we should try to get all the help we can and not get in their way.

However, I am not sure what I believe in this situation. There is no cure, or at least something that is well studied and affordable, for HIV. So all the patients would have got is more time and that time would be spent lying in a hospital in pain depending on others for everything and without clear sight. It is pretty much waiting in bed to watch your body fail and being degraded at the same time in many different ways. They are just waiting for their slow painful and inevitable death in almost all cases.

I have seen people die painfully that way and I have decided for myself that I rather die early than degrade myself and endure all the pain for a few extra months. I would go for alternative ways that would let me die in a peaceful manner, even if it means taking a few months off my life. If that means depending on religion for some people, then that is what we should respect.

Treatment of HIV has greatly improved over the years, and life expectancy is considerably higher.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18657708

[sandcat]

Its all about the money for churches like this, it should be a crime to treat people in this way

[Imaginarynumber1]

sandcat, on 26 November 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

Its all about the money for churches like this, it should be a crime to treat people in this way

It is. It's called Culpable Homicide in the UK, i believe.
Maybe it's Gross Negligent Homicide. Either way it's disgusting.

[ShadowSot]

Mr Right Wing, on 25 November 2011 - 04:29 PM, said:

I would be interested in finding out if any placebo experiments have cured aids.

Placebo doesn't cure anything. Placebo is limited to the subjective experience of the patient,so it can work ok in releaving pain or whatever discomfort comes with disease,but doesnothing to actually cure the disease.
Objectively they're still ill, and will suffer the physical effects of the disease.

Quote

Blue Lizard
Normally I believe that doctors need to be able to do their job. Doctors exist for a reason, and so we should try to get all the help we can and not get in their way.

HIV treatments have enabled people infected with the disease to a nearly normal life expectancy, while taking medication.
This church is telingthem to stop takingtheir medication and they're dieing due to it.