62 replies to this topic

[Beckys_Mom]

I wonder if it is just HIV... Would they or do they do the same with Cancer patients also?

I find it just morally wrong...I could never dream of telling anyone to come off their meds and use faith to act alone..  These people should face the courts for this

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 27 November 2011 - 12:03 PM.

[Leonardo]

Mr Right Wing, on 26 November 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

Hi guys, a quick 20 second search reveals a paper on human testing which you guessed it indicates placebo effects in HIV -
http://gateway.nlm.n...=102197010.html

The effects wore off over the long term but effects were noted.

The information provided in that link is outdated. It wasn't until 1994 that the virus causing Kaposi's Sarcoma (HHV-8) was identified and found to be different to the virus causing HIV.

Thus, the reduction in Kaposi lesions observed was irrelevant to the progression of AIDS in the subjects, and more likely to be a general, but slight, improvement in the immunosuppresive system of the subjects brought about by "a subjective sense of improvement in the severity of illness".

So, the results indicate a possible placebo effect on Kaposi's Sarcoma, but not for AIDS (apart from the subjective "sense of improvement".)

[Copasetic]

Mr Right Wing, on 26 November 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

Hi guys, a quick 20 second search reveals a paper on human testing which you guessed it indicates placebo effects in HIV -
http://gateway.nlm.n...=102197010.html

The effects wore off over the long term but effects were noted.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, was traveling during the Thanksgiving holiday. Leo is spot on though. So let me reiterate something;

Placebo effects really work best on the subjective experience of a disease and it is hit and miss at that (which is why it is unethical to use it medically, its not a dependable treatment).

Consider pain, placebo opioids do work in some patients experience of pain. They will say "well yes, this medicine is making my pain hurt less"--Even though you are only giving them something like saline and not actually giving them hydromorphone.

What the placebo effect doesn't do is treat a terminal illness. You can't placebo away infectious HIV particles replicating in your CD4 T cells. Or you can't placebo away a glioblastoma multiforme.

[Copasetic]

Blue Lizard, on 26 November 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:

Normally I believe that doctors need to be able to do their job. Doctors exist for a reason, and so we should try to get all the help we can and not get in their way.

However, I am not sure what I believe in this situation. There is no cure, or at least something that is well studied and affordable, for HIV. So all the patients would have got is more time and that time would be spent lying in a hospital in pain depending on others for everything and without clear sight. It is pretty much waiting in bed to watch your body fail and being degraded at the same time in many different ways. They are just waiting for their slow painful and inevitable death in almost all cases.

I have seen people die painfully that way and I have decided for myself that I rather die early than degrade myself and endure all the pain for a few extra months. I would go for alternative ways that would let me die in a peaceful manner, even if it means taking a few months off my life. If that means depending on religion for some people, then that is what we should respect.

In short, if we could help them then that would be a different case. However, we can only put them in bed for some more time and they will be in pain that entire time.

So can we bash religion? No we cannot and it is just pathetic. It is their lives and we need to respect their choices especially when we don't have a cure they could use and our method is painful. So stop finding reasons to bash religion.

Like others pointed out to you, HIV isn't the "death sentence" it once was. This is because the advent of much more sophisticated anti-virals. I see patients all the time in the free clinic who have been HIV positive for 10+ years and have practically normal CD4 counts and very low viral loads. So claiming all the patients would have got was "more time laying in a hospital bed", "in pain" is uninformed on your part.

[The Unseen]

This is just my opinion and I don't mean to disrespect anyone here but I think those churches that promise something like that should be responsable and if found guilty of false teachings should be burnt to the ground for endangering the lives of their congragation.Just my opinion no offence ment to anyone.

Edited by The Unseen, 28 November 2011 - 03:25 AM.

[Rye17]

Your move holy man...

[Orcseeker]

This is like a news station telling everyone to get a knife and poke it in a switched on toaster. They should be held accountable for these people's deaths. They were the reason they died and should therefore be charged accordingly.

[LimeGelatin]

If you have been diagnosed with an ailment as serious as HIV you can't believe anyone who tells you they can cure you. Maybe God does want you to be healed, but I would get a second oppinion from a medical professional before quitting the medicines that are saving my life. I can let the homeless guy who rants and raves about the rapture being on its way diagnose all my ailments, but I would never just take his word for it.

[Justinus]

Remember when the Bible told you to watch out for these???

i·dol (dl)
n.
1.
a. An image used as an object of worship.
b. A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
3. Something visible but without substance.

As far as I'm concerned leave the healing to your PCP

[Sensible Logic]

I met a man a long time ago at the airport.  We struck up a conversation and I found out he had esophageal cancer.  He refused to go to the doctors because he was sure that God didn't want him to use medical means for treatment and that God was going to heal him.  I asked him a question to which he had no answer...If God didn't want him to take advantage of modern medicine why did he create doctors?

[Arawyn]

*imitates church idiot* Duh, it wasn' da churches fault! They didn' ha faith in da Lord! duh, God wantededs thems ta die!

Wow. I mean, these people seriously must be as dumb as i imitated them!

[LotusChild86]

This is why religion needs to be a thing of the past. spritulizim is good and is ok. Religion is bad and is nothing more than a cult. It is a easy way to brain wash you and make you want to live a good life or think you are. So if these so called christians are supposed to be fallowing in the steps of this so called god. then why are they some of the most mean and thoughless people that do nothing but spread rumors and pass judgement on everyone they see. If you want to belive thats all fine and dandy, but keep your ways to yourself and stop tring to recurt new members. If someone want to be saved as you say, then they will make that dission themselves, keep your **** to yourselves. And please tell your prechers to stop melasting kids, it is sick.

[JaySleeps]

Article should be renamed to "Six die due to blinding stupidity..."

Edited by JaySleeps, 05 December 2011 - 04:10 AM.

[Rolci]

Far be it from me to protect churches or their religion, faith, practices, etc. But the fact is, the priest is just a man, just like a tramp, a teacher, or a family member. If he claims to be an authority, then what? Anyone can claim anything, it's up to the individuals to accept or reject them as an authority. I could ask my friend for advice on my ailment as well, and if he says he thinks I'm cured, I decide what to do with that information. He can claim all the expertise in the world if I do not give him the recognition. If I decide that I will stop taking medicine because I choose to give him credit, it's my choice. Surely as a grown-up adult I can take responsibility for making my own decisions in my life. And if I stop taking the medicine and die, why would it be anyone else's fault other than my own? Anyone can say anything, claiming all the authority in the world, but the choice is yours. It's like, you sue the post office because the lottery ticket they sold you was not the winning one. If an office clark looks at your numbers when you're buying the ticket and says "these numbers look lucky", you can go back after not winning and claim that you were about to change your mind and had the clark not said that the numbers were lucky you would've cancelled the purchase before you paid. I don't think you'd win the lawsuit. If you make your decisions in life based on the claim of the people that you have CHOSEN to give authority to, then grow up and start taking responsibility, stop blaming others, and maybe start taking control into your own hands. Human beings are funny...

[__R_____]

Oh its 2011, not 1102...hmmm, well...