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9/11: The Flight 77 Eyewitnesses


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#781    Babe Ruth

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:57 PM

Cz

No sir, YOU are having far more issues with what MID said (or didn't say) than I am.  I found it amusing at the time and still do.  You and Boo are the ones making the big deal out of it.

For me, I just find it an interesting insight, and a funny comment at the time.


#782    Babe Ruth

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:08 PM

Sky

With all due respect sir, you've already tricked me once with one of your "simulations", so I will pass on your nonsensical claims regarding your approach at SMF.  Wingtip 10 feet off the ground?  Who are you?  Walter Mitty?   :w00t:

MID

From the beginning sir, I have noted that the maneuver is NOT NECESSARILY impossible.

What I HAVE SAID is that, all things considered, the maneuver is VERY HIGHLY improbable.  You know, experience level and flying ability of the pilot as reported in the official narrative, etc etc.  And I say that based upon my experience of 40 years of flying including instructing 300 hour pilots.

It's hard to tell by your post above if you acknowledge the 4500 FPM required by the official narrative, or if you dispute that. It is also hard to tell if you acknowledge OR NOT the G required to arrest that rate of descent.  It is also curious that neither you nor Boo nor Cz are willing to reproduce the post that causes them so much anxiety.

As for the G force, it's not so much that eyeball crushing effect that you talk about.  On a practical level, it is that arm-restraining effect that Hani would have experienced there in his brand new Boeing, making his "judicious use of trim" that much more difficult and improbable.


#783    booNyzarC

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:43 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 05 March 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Boo

If you are so confident about what MID posted last month, why don't you present it here?

I'm not mocking anybody Boo.  I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and maybe "mocking" is too?
Alright, since you are too lazy to go back in an effort to support your position about what you claim he said, I'll retrieve the post in question to prove my point.



View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Cz

No sir, YOU are having far more issues with what MID said (or didn't say) than I am.  I found it amusing at the time and still do.  You and Boo are the ones making the big deal out of it.

For me, I just find it an interesting insight, and a funny comment at the time.
As stated previously, the only funny thing about this is that even after being corrected multiple times you are still attributing a false position to MID and mocking that position.



View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

MID

*snip*
It is also curious that neither you nor Boo nor Cz are willing to reproduce the post that causes them so much anxiety.
*snip*
I'm fairly sure that this is just a manipulative effort on your part to either have someone else do the leg work or the hope that we will just drop the point altogether.  I don't mind doing the leg work on this, it is easy to track down.

What is curious to me is that you couldn't be bothered to go back and double check on your own to confirm whether or not your claims about MID's statements were accurate.  Or better yet, perhaps even asking MID if that is what he intended to mean.  Ever consider that?  Never mind the fact that MID has repeatedly stated since then that he does not consider the maneuver to be superhuman...  in his original post he makes this quite clear as well.


Here was the original set of posts which led to your dishonest portrayal of MID's position:

View PostMID, on 11 February 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

View PostBabe Ruth, on 09 February 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

MID

Flying into the towers would be fairly easy IMO, though a sim instructor out in Arizona somewhere (737 type) had a hard time hitting the tower at the high indicated airspeeds reported in the official accounts.  He encountered some sort of induced Dutch Roll.

As for the Pentagon, it was not a 360 according to the official accounts, it was a 270, begun at 7000 feet overhead the target.  Assuming for the sake of discussion that he used standard rate turn, that would require less than 2 minutes.  I round up to 2 minutes for discussion.  That works out to about 3500FPM for the entire maneuver.

I did crop dusting in airplanes for 10 years, and I'm still active in flight instructing after all these years.  For my more advanced students I introduce them to low level flight and crop dusting turns.  Very few people are comfortable getting close to the ground at high speeds.  Most must be forced to get within 50 of the ground.

According to the official narrative, Hani had to complete the overhead portion, then transition for the last few seconds (350knots we are told) to terrain-following flight to descend into the "bowl" in which the Pentagon sits.  He had to follow that terrain so closely that the airplane was perfectly centered on the target.  The tail was not too high, the cowlings were not too low.  In short, an absolutely perfect threading of the needle.

All this by a lousy pilot, if we are to believe his instructors, flying in a transport category aircraft at speeds at least twice as fast as he had ever flown in his short career.

I simply do not believe it could be done.  Transitioning to landing out of a 600FPM descent is hard for most folks.  Transitioning to almost 0 from 3500FPM?  No ****ing way.


Ah, Babe, but I think there's something we're leaving out of the equation!


I understand what you're saying, and I'll say this:

I couldn't have done it.
Why?
I'm not saying I couldn't have exeuted a 270, or a 360, in a couple minutes at 3500 FPM down and slapped into a building at 500 KTS.
What I'm saying is, WHY WOULD I???

Threin lies the issue:
Anyone with nominal pilot training could, and they did.
Why:

Religious fanaticism.  Allah was waiting, with 77 virgins, if you killed the infidels!  And yourself of course, as a martyr for the cause....but that's the thing.
You, nor I, would be inclined to do such a thing, or to fly 150 people in a loaded 767 into a building, but these freaks were, and that's precicely why they did!


It's not am mystery.  People do this kind of crap.  We can't imagine it.  We can't even come close, but they do!

Personally, I think airplanes are extensions of God's own hand, and I cannot imagine abusing one like that.  But these Islamic yahoos can, could, and did!
That's why this crap happened.


It's not worth talking about flying skills, or the impossibility of the maneuvers.  None of them were, especially with ALLAH and a lifetime's conditioning, and basic flight training in their pockets.

Who needed to know how to bleed speed, drop the gear and flaps, and execute a nice gentle stall onto the ground?


None of 'em!


I think that's the bottom line here, and what I've said may times regarding this sort of discussion:


Any kook could've done it, and kooks did do it!


:yes:

Now do us all a favor and try reading this again.  Make an effort to understand what MID is actually saying here.  I've spelled it out before, so it should not be that difficult for anyone to understand; especially someone who was supposedly an English major.

After you've re-read and actually understood, I trust you'll drop these ridiculous antics you've latched onto.  Right?


#784    Babe Ruth

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:59 PM

Thank you Boo, for doing the legwork.  Finally, we can get to the bottom of this tempest in a teapot.

MID's point was that religious fanaticism inspired Hani.  I'm sure we all agree on that part of the official narrative.  I certainly have no problem understanding that religious fanaticism drives a very large part of the entire Official Conspiracy Theory.

The logical implications, taken in context of the conversation MID and I were having then, is that by way of his religious fanaticism, Hani somehow or other was able to perform an extremely difficult maneuver.  Some Boeing qualified pilots, USAF types and Navy too I think, say the maneuver is impossible.  For the sake of discussion I'm willing to say possible but HIGHLY unlikely.  Maybe they are correct.  We're talking semantics.

So my point all along has been that MID interjected religious fanaticism into the conversations, not I.  And that raises the question of what motivated, what inspired, MID to make such a statement?  I don't know, and don't really care what caused him to make the statement, but he did.

As an atheist, I find it funny, but fairly typical in this post 911 United States to read such a statement.  On a non-aviation subject, I heard a very similar remark from a wonderful retired judge who I have known since childhood.  He too had accepted that muslims somehow have these extraordinary powers or abilities, and blamed certain events on the religious preferences of the supposed perpetrators.

The light-hearted interpretation is simply humor, but the more sober analysis makes me wonder why so many of my fellow americans give so much credit to, and have such a fear of, muslims?  Maybe they've been watching too much "24"?  I don't know, but it is interesting behavior.


#785    booNyzarC

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 04:23 PM

So basically you still don't get it.  Maybe it would help if some of this was presented with bullet points?

  • MID was not suggesting that religious fanaticism bestows superhuman powers or extraordinary abilities.
  • MID did not interject religious fanaticism into the conversation.
  • Religious fanaticism is inherently present in the conversation because that is what inspired the attackers.

The point is not that MID made mention of the zealots before you did.  The point is that you twisted the meaning, and therefore the intention, of MID's statements; with the expressed purpose of mocking that twisted meaning.

You claim now that it was merely humorous.  You suggest that it was lighthearted.  I suggest that you are backpedaling.

You were pointing at a statement which you claim was made by MID and laughing at it because in your opinion the statement was stupid.  This is not lighthearted.  Moreover, it wasn't MID's statement in the first place; it was a statement of your own invention.

Here's a zinger -- I agree with you that the statement you invented is ridiculous and worthy of mocking.  Had MID actually made the statement, I'd have no problem with anyone mocking the statement.  The statement is completely idiotic.

But let's be real clear.  This idiotic statement that we are now both pointing at and calling ridiculous is your invention, not MID's.


#786    Babe Ruth

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:12 PM

I hope the bullet points helped your ability to comprehend, but apparently it did not.

In MID's post above, look at the two words just before he talks about Allah and 77 virgins. (I thought it was 72).  See those words Boo?  MID typed them.  Here they are without bullet points: "Religious fanaticism."  

That makes your second bullet point statement wrong.

As I've already noted, WE ALL agree with your third bullet point.  Indeed, religious fanaticism of the muslim variety is the central theme of the Official Conspiracy Theory.  That religious fanaticism of the jewish variety manifested in Manhattan that day with dancing Israelis is NOT beside the point..... :o

Perhaps you should get out your best dictionary and look up these words: suggestive, implied, inferred.

Thanks to your doing the legwork here Boo, the record reflects that MID, not I, interjected the term "religious fanaticism" into the conversation regarding the attack on the Pentagon.  You and Cz and MID can rationalize that anyway that suits your purposes, but such rationalization in no way contributes to intellectual honesty.

I played on his words, and that is anybody's right.  If he wishes to retract his statement, I fully respect his doing that.  Otherwise the words stand, and they various ideas those words and their useage suggest.  And really, it's no big deal.

I think you guys are sensitive and anxious about this extremely trivial thing because you have chosen to defend what is, at its heart, a lie and deception.  Having done the same thing myself for the better part of 4 years, I sympathize with you, but you have made your bed.  Defending a boat full of lies is very frustrating.


#787    skyeagle409

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

With all due respect sir, you've already tricked me once with one of your "simulations", so I will pass on your nonsensical claims regarding your approach at SMF.  Wingtip 10 feet off the ground?  Who are you?  Walter Mitty?   :w00t:

The simulation was no trick, but to make a point, and considering that I was already aligned with the end of the runway when I initiated the turn from downwind to final, was the reason why I had to lose altitude quickly and as a pilot you would have known why I had to do so.

The aircraft that I was flying was a Piper Arrow II.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#788    Czero 101

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:49 PM

Babe, you talk a lot and say virtually nothing.

You have taken the "religious fanaticism" portion of MID's post and purposely misinterpreted it to mean something that magically provides a skill, whereas in the actual context of how MID used the phrase, it is something that provides the motivation, the desire, the impetus, the drive to commit the atrocities committed that day.

Someone who actually was an English Major would be able to understand that distinction, regardless of what their ideological or religious viewpoints are, yet you make this egregious error.

I say you're a liar and that you're doing this on purpose in some ludicrous attempt to deflect from the fact that you have NOTHING to back up your pitiful excuses for opinions on what actually happened.

You have become nothing but a colossal waste of time and bandwidth.


Good day.




Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 06 March 2012 - 07:49 PM.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan
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#789    booNyzarC

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:18 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I hope the bullet points helped your ability to comprehend, but apparently it did not.
Another attempt to mock?


View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

In MID's post above, look at the two words just before he talks about Allah and 77 virgins. (I thought it was 72).  See those words Boo?  MID typed them.  Here they are without bullet points: "Religious fanaticism."  

That makes your second bullet point statement wrong.

As I've already noted, WE ALL agree with your third bullet point.  Indeed, religious fanaticism of the muslim variety is the central theme of the Official Conspiracy Theory.  That religious fanaticism of the jewish variety manifested in Manhattan that day with dancing Israelis is NOT beside the point..... :o
How does one interject something that is already inherently present?

Don't worry about answering.  It was a rhetorical question.


I agree with Cz's assessment.  As he has stated, I also think that you are a liar and that you purposely misinterpreted MID's statement.  Further, I contend that you did so in an effort to ridicule, and that you are too spineless to admit it even though it is blatantly obvious.



View PostBabe Ruth, on 06 March 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I think you guys are sensitive and anxious about this extremely trivial thing because you have chosen to defend what is, at its heart, a lie and deception. Having done the same thing myself for the better part of 4 years, I sympathize with you, but you have made your bed. Defending a boat full of lies is very frustrating.
The only thing that bothers me in this particular line of discussion is your treatment of MID.  If there was a legitimate reason to ridicule something he had said, I'd not be bothered in the least.  If he had actually said what you suggest he said, I'd say "Have at it.  Ridicule away."

But he didn't say what you suggest he said; and you still refuse to acknowledge that very simple fact.

At this point it has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or anyone's thoughts about 9/11.  It has to do with your honesty and your integrity.  Do you have any?  Are you capable of "manning up?"


#790    Babe Ruth

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 01:47 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 06 March 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Another attempt to mock?



How does one interject something that is already inherently present?

Don't worry about answering.  It was a rhetorical question.


I agree with Cz's assessment.  As he has stated, I also think that you are a liar and that you purposely misinterpreted MID's statement.  Further, I contend that you did so in an effort to ridicule, and that you are too spineless to admit it even though it is blatantly obvious.




The only thing that bothers me in this particular line of discussion is your treatment of MID.  If there was a legitimate reason to ridicule something he had said, I'd not be bothered in the least.  If he had actually said what you suggest he said, I'd say "Have at it.  Ridicule away."

But he didn't say what you suggest he said; and you still refuse to acknowledge that very simple fact.

At this point it has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or anyone's thoughts about 9/11.  It has to do with your honesty and your integrity.  Do you have any?  Are you capable of "manning up?"

G'day Cz.

Boo

One interjects a topic with words.  Typed in this case, or spoken in the real world.

We were talking about, as pilots, the finer points of how one might accomplish the Hani maneuver.  While it is true that religious fanaticism permeates the entire theme of 911, during the conversation with MID I was not thinking of that subject.  It had not entered my mind.  I was discussing flying, nothing more, and we had been posting back & forth for several posts.

HE brought up the religious angle.  Yes, I ridiculed his statement.  Could not resist it. When one makes a silly statement, one should expect to be called on it.

Man up?  I have no problem with that sir, and have done it many times in the real world and on the internet.  Please show me how my statements were in error, and I'll be happy to admit my error.

The only thing that bothers you is my treatment of MID?  I have not mistreated MID.  I would not know him if he walked in the door.  All I know is he is some sort of pilot, that we agree on the matter of contrails and such, and that we disagree on the facts regarding the attack at the Pentagon.  I have not disrespected him.  Yes, I laughed at his statement about religious influence on Hani's purported motives, but what's wrong with that?  I thought that was the purpose of  :w00t:

What you guys don't want to man up about is that the Official Conspiracy Theory cannot be proved.  It must be accepted as an act of faith based upon an elaborate, though obviously inaccurate, government press release and coverup.

From Shanksville to Manhattan to the Pentagon, the story is replete with inaccuracies and deception, but you choose to soldier on, attempting to give credence to government propaganda in the craziest tradition of Goebbels and Orwell.  It is not malicious on your part, and it's really none of my business, but this is a public forum.

Observing human behavior is a hobby of mine, and I enjoy discussion and spirited disagreement.  I suspect MID and everybody else will do just fine.   :)

Edited by Babe Ruth, 07 March 2012 - 01:48 PM.


#791    booNyzarC

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:41 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

HE brought up the religious angle.  Yes, I ridiculed his statement.  Could not resist it. When one makes a silly statement, one should expect to be called on it.

Man up?  I have no problem with that sir, and have done it many times in the real world and on the internet.  Please show me how my statements were in error, and I'll be happy to admit my error.
I've already shown how your statements were in error and you still refuse to acknowledge it.

MID said nothing that was "silly".  The "silly" part was your invention.  The only thing you are ridiculing is your own, and by extension, yourself.  You keep attempting to sidestep from that.  Whether you choose to take responsibility for it or not, it does not change the fact that you intentionally misinterpreted MID's commentary and twisted it into something that it wasn't.

I'm not surprised though.

Dishonest debating tactics like this appear to be one of the hallmarks of most 9/11 conspiracy theorists that I've encountered.


#792    Babe Ruth

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:49 PM

Rationalizing and inflating a poor pilot's flying skills by citing his religious fanaticism is rather a sign that the debate has been lost.

Making a mountain out of a molehill, he said she said, whilst ignoring the substance of the discussion is another sign the debate has been lost.

Yeah Boo, I knew this heart surgeon who had lost 2 fingers on each hand, and a thumb on the other.  What he lacked in dexterity he made up for with his strong faith in Buddha.  :lol:


#793    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:07 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

What you guys don't want to man up about is that the Official Conspiracy Theory cannot be proved.

Well, can the 9/11 conspiracy folks account for the passengers and crew of American 77 and its airframe?

You continue to ignore the fact that the operator of American 77 has already confirmed that American 77 crashed at the Pentagon. The debris at the Pentagon are those from a B-757, and it is ridicules to think that trucks are going to dump B-757 engine parts, landing gears, and other pieces of aircraft wreckage during rescue operations. Why don't you tell us what happened to Barbara Olson?  

What it is, you are deliberately overlooking the evidence because you are not interested in the evidence.


Quote

  It must be accepted as an act of faith based upon an elaborate, though obviously inaccurate, government press release and coverup.

Serious questions have surfaced regarding your aeronautical comments, which captured the attention of other pilots as well. First question; Are you a pilot?

Next questions;

*   Were you the person who'd claim that United 93 landed in Cleveland?

*   Were you the person who claimed that no aircraft crashed at Shanksville despite the fact that the coroner you used as a reference has confirmed the crash of an aircraft and the recovery of bodies, which were confirmed as passengers and crew from United 93?

*   Did you suggest that explosives brought down the light poles outside the Pentagon?

*   Did you claim that 4 Gs were pulled during the maneuver of American 77?

Edited by skyeagle409, 07 March 2012 - 06:25 PM.

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#794    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Rationalizing and inflating a poor pilot's flying skills by citing his religious fanaticism is rather a sign that the debate has been lost.

Making a mountain out of a molehill, he said she said, whilst ignoring the substance of the discussion is another sign the debate has been lost.

We already know you lost the debate, no question about that!

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#795    Czero 101

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Rationalizing and inflating a poor pilot's flying skills by citing his religious fanaticism is rather a sign that the debate has been lost.
Making a fool out of yourself by purposely misquoting someone else and then perpetuating that lie when shown that you are wrong is a sure sign that you are being intellectually dishonest with yourself as well as everyone else.

Quote

Making a mountain out of a molehill, he said she said, whilst ignoring the substance of the discussion is another sign the debate has been lost.
Coming into a debate knowing full-well that you will be refusing to support anything you claim is a sure sign that you have no integrity and shouldn't be in this debate in the first place.

Quote

Yeah Boo, I knew this heart surgeon who had lost 2 fingers on each hand, and a thumb on the other.  What he lacked in dexterity he made up for with his strong faith in Buddha.  :lol:
That's fine, Babe... you just keep on laughing at your own stupid jokes.

Everyone else here now knows that you are incapable of participating in an honest debate.

In the end, the only joke here is you.



Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 07 March 2012 - 06:24 PM.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan
"I'm tired of ignorance held up as inspiration, where vicious anti-intellectualism is considered a positive trait, and where uninformed opinion is displayed as fact." - Phil Plait
"For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false." - H. L. Mencken




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