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Scientists reveal glimpse of 'God particle'


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#1    Saru

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 03:43 PM

Large Hadron Collider scientists have reported glimpsing the Higgs-boson particle for the first time.

Telegraph said:

At a specially-arranged seminar at the Cern laboratory in Geneva, researchers presented clues in their data which suggest experts may have pinned down the "God particle" at last. Scientists remained cautious about their findings and insisted they did not represent an official discovery, but admitted the results were "intriguing".

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#2    Guest

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 05:19 PM

Can anyone explain that to me in simple english, because I am not a native speaker and not into Science either.


#3    David Benjamin

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 06:06 PM

Do you speak spanish?


#4    BeastieRunner

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 06:46 PM

The theory of the Standard Model bases our understanding of the interaction between elementary particles and forces particles as either bosons or fermions. Bosons are composed of even paired particles and have an integer spin. Of the 4 forces (3 if you unify the weak and electromagnetic), bosons control the weak electromagnetic force by carrying and transferring the electrical charge. Examples are photons, phonons, and mesons. We know of 3 bosons: W^+, W^-, and Z^0.

The Standard Model is a 30 year old scientific theory that attempts to unify the fundamental structure of matter and forces acting upon it into a small number of basic entities. The underlying premise is that there is a small finite number of fundamental building blocks that combine and interact in different ways to form all of the matter in our entire Universe. The model has six quarks and six leptons as fundamental entities, as well as the 3 mediating force carriers.

The Standard Model also describes what is known as the Higgs mechanism, which is the idea that all of space is filled with a Higgs Field and that by interacting with this field, particles acquire their masses-- those that interact strongly are heavy, and those that interact weakly are light. The Standard Model predicts that the Higgs field has at least one new particle, the Higgs boson. Finding this boson adds to our understanding of how elementary particles and forces interact and we are that much closer to understanding what may have existed before the 4 forces split.

Finding the Higgs boson, the "God" particle or the "God Dammed" Particle could prove the existence of dark matter. It's also theorized establishing the existence of the Higgs Field will help prove the Kaluza–Klein theory (a.k.a. KK or multidimensional theory) that extend general relativity to a five-dimensional spacetime as well as further disprove E=MC^2 which would open up the fields of space travel, teleportation, energy usage, and other scientific fields.
Probable Source of the article

Edited by Karlis, 14 December 2011 - 04:52 AM.
Added probable source to the article

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#5    David Thomson

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 06:54 PM

This whole myth about a mass particle is nonsense.  Mass is a dimension, not a physical entity.  Mass is a dimension much like length and time are dimensions.  It is a property of something, not the thing, itself.  Searching for a mass particle is as absurd as searching for a length particle and a time particle.  

Evidence that mass is a dimension is no further away than Classical Mechanics.  The unit of momentum is equal to mass times length times frequency (reciprocal time).  Did you see that?  MASS times velocity is equal to momentum.  Mass is a dimension and dimensions arrange to form units, all of which describe the actions and behaviors of phenomena.  

There is no such mass particle.  This whole charade is a money grab by skilled scientists swimming in job security.  The search for the "God particle" is nothing more than a scam involving public funds.


#6    ROGER

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:23 PM

View Postvolantis, on 13 December 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

This whole myth about a mass particle is nonsense.  Mass is a dimension, not a physical entity.  Mass is a dimension much like length and time are dimensions.  It is a property of something, not the thing, itself.  Searching for a mass particle is as absurd as searching for a length particle and a time particle.  

Evidence that mass is a dimension is no further away than Classical Mechanics.  The unit of momentum is equal to mass times length times frequency (reciprocal time).  Did you see that?  MASS times velocity is equal to momentum.  Mass is a dimension and dimensions arrange to form units, all of which describe the actions and behaviors of phenomena.  
Can this theory be explained with Mathematics. And it still leaves the variable of time.

The world can't end in 2012, I have a yogurt that expires in 2013.

#7    sepulchrave

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 08:22 PM

View Postvolantis, on 13 December 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

This whole myth about a mass particle is nonsense.  Mass is a dimension, not a physical entity.  Mass is a dimension much like length and time are dimensions.  It is a property of something, not the thing, itself.  Searching for a mass particle is as absurd as searching for a length particle and a time particle.  

Evidence that mass is a dimension is no further away than Classical Mechanics.  The unit of momentum is equal to mass times length times frequency (reciprocal time).  Did you see that?  MASS times velocity is equal to momentum.  Mass is a dimension and dimensions arrange to form units, all of which describe the actions and behaviors of phenomena.  

There is no such mass particle.  This whole charade is a money grab by skilled scientists swimming in job security.  The search for the "God particle" is nothing more than a scam involving public funds.
Well I'm glad you've figured out all of science.

Many things have ``dimensionality''; position, velocity, mass, charge, colour, loudness, luminosity, etc.

Mathematically, these all can represent ``degrees of freedom'' and are classified as dimensions.

However any non-trivial examination of reality will quickly reveal that some dimensions are highly constrained, and many are linked to one another.

For example, an electron has a position that can be characterized as a 4-vector in 3+1 space-time, and an energy-momentum that can also be characterized as a 4-vector. It also has a scalar rest mass, a scalar spin, and a scalar charge.
However, while the position and energy-momentum 4-vectors seem to be able to assume a continuous range of values, every single electron has the same rest mass, the same charge, and the same magnitude of spin.

Clearly, while charge, rest mass, and spin are mathematically the same as the dimensions of space-time, in our particular Universe they are constrained to a single value.

Can you explain why?

--------------
As an aside, BeastieRunner's explanation was correct but he made a few technical mistakes.

Gauge bosons are responsible for all fundamental forces: photons <--> electromagnetism; Z, W+,- boson <--> weak nuclear interaction (``flavor'' force); gluon <--> strong nuclear interaction (``color'' force), graviton <--> gravity (of course the graviton has not been experimentally proven yet)

Phonons are not gauge bosons, they are a property of a lattice (typically a crystal, although some ``lattice gauge theories'' postulate a space-time lattice). In any event the force carried by the phonon is dependent on the properties of the lattice; certainly in crystals they have an electromagnetic effect. In crystals they would also have a gravitational effect (since the mass distribution of the lattice is being periodically perturbed) but this is far far too weak to detect.

Mesons are two-quark objects, as such they do follow boson statistics but are still ``real'' particles; in that they are classified as matter and do not carry force. They can interact with the various forces though, because they may be charged and certainly can participate in the weak/strong nuclear interactions (since they have quarks).

Also, BeastieRunner if I may ask some questions:
  • I have not heard about Higgs bosons providing answers to the dark matter, do you have any handy links on the subject?
  • I have also not heard about the Higgs field helping prove KK theory, I was under the impression that the scalar field necessary for KK theory was related to, but different than, the scalar Higgs field (i.e. group-theoretically they may be the same, but they would couple to other fields in different manners), do you have any links handy addressing this subject?
  • I also have not heard about additional dimensional theory disproving E = mc2, since this is a scalar identity I don't see how it is affected by space-time geometry. (I also don't see how KK theory can be true, since it is only rigorous for bosons, not fermions.)  Do you have any links on this subject as well?
Thanks!


#8    puckmomma

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 04:22 AM

But the question remains if they isolated the "God Particle" how will be able to experiment. They would need alot more funding as well as time and for those like me who thought the Cern Black Hole _End of World scenerio in 2012. Well I don't think they will have it isolated and the funding and the proper experiment implented in time for 2012. Maybe later but not now. If I am wrong please help us non-scientist understand.  Would this God Particle be the end of us in 2012 like most people believe? :blink:


#9    ninjadude

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 04:35 AM

View Postpuckmomma, on 14 December 2011 - 04:22 AM, said:

But the question remains if they isolated the "God Particle" how will be able to experiment.

that IS the experiment.

Quote

They would need alot more funding as well as time

that's why they built the LHC.

Quote

and for those like me who thought the Cern Black Hole _End of World scenerio in 2012. Well I don't think they will have it isolated and the funding and the proper experiment implented in time for 2012. Maybe later but not now. If I am wrong please help us non-scientist understand.  Would this God Particle be the end of us in 2012 like most people believe? :blink:

Most people do not believe this craziness because it's not based on science.

Edited by ninjadude, 14 December 2011 - 04:35 AM.

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#10    Mr Supertypo

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 06:41 AM

Quote

and for those like me who thought the Cern Black Hole _End of World scenerio in 2012. Well I don't think they will have it isolated and the funding and the proper experiment implented in time for 2012. Maybe later but not now. If I am wrong please help us non-scientist understand. Would this God Particle be the end of us in 2012 like most people believe?

Frankly, all that 2012/end of the world/black hole ect is just a bunch of super bull....

Edited by ~C.S.M~, 14 December 2011 - 06:49 AM.


#11    Habitat

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:02 AM

Is "intriguing" a scientific term ?  :hmm:


#12    Dougal

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:37 AM

View Postvolantis, on 13 December 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

This whole myth about a mass particle is nonsense.  Mass is a dimension, not a physical entity.  Mass is a dimension much like length and time are dimensions.  It is a property of something, not the thing, itself.  Searching for a mass particle is as absurd as searching for a length particle and a time particle.  

Evidence that mass is a dimension is no further away than Classical Mechanics.  The unit of momentum is equal to mass times length times frequency (reciprocal time).  Did you see that?  MASS times velocity is equal to momentum.  Mass is a dimension and dimensions arrange to form units, all of which describe the actions and behaviors of phenomena.  

There is no such mass particle.  This whole charade is a money grab by skilled scientists swimming in job security.  The search for the "God particle" is nothing more than a scam involving public funds.

Somebody give this man a freakin Nobel Prize, he's clearly figured it all out! </sarcasm>


If some dude on the internet said it was so without any proof, he must be right, those lazy scientists at CERN need to read more UM!

my face hurts from being palmed so much from reading that post :(

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#13    encouraged

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 05:31 PM

View Postpuckmomma, on 14 December 2011 - 04:22 AM, said:

But the question remains if they isolated the "God Particle" how will be able to experiment. They would need alot more funding as well as time and for those like me who thought the Cern Black Hole _End of World scenerio in 2012. Well I don't think they will have it isolated and the funding and the proper experiment implented in time for 2012. Maybe later but not now. If I am wrong please help us non-scientist understand.  Would this God Particle be the end of us in 2012 like most people believe? :blink:
I don't know if this is off-topic or not, but, IMHO...

The "Cern Black Hole_End of World scenerio in 2012", falls into the same catagory as other doomsday prophesies that have met their doom;
  • Hale Bopp
  • the turn of the millenium,
  • the Mayan calendar
  • solar eclipse (some tribal people and the European dark ages)
  • mining the land will awaken the creator beings in an angry state and they will destroy the Earth
    (from the Kakadu World Heritage Park phase three extension vs. mining the land debates)
  • the California occult group's comet (forget the name) passing by Earth--is really a space craft to-receive-our-souls-after-we-suicide and thereby save "us" from the destruction of the world right after it passes
  • astral alignments predicting Earth imbalance and doom
  • the calendar date 12/12/12 predicts doom
  • etc.
The basis of such thinking being:
  • the people who are experts in their field don't really know what they are doing (1, 2, 3 & 5), but I do, "follow me"
  • infrequent events (1-4, 6-8)
  • man desiring meaning from things that are a result of his assigning order that brings about those things (my odometer just turned over to 11111.1--this must be an omen of something)(2,3,4 & 5)
  • superstition--man can manipulate nature, god, or our religious figures
Actually,
(a) the experts in their field would be the first to recognize the problem and way ahead of the doomsday prophet (who probably heard about it from an expert), if such a problem even were to exist.
(b & c) infrequent events are a result of man making categories and/or observations of patterns--nature does not recognize man's system of categorization of man's observations
(d) manipulating nature, god, or our religious figures, as a result of something we have done, is the dividing line between religion and witchcraft

...IMHO

Edited by encouraged, 14 December 2011 - 05:34 PM.


#14    KnockoutMouse

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 02:38 AM

An electron is 1836x less massive than a proton.  They exhibit equal charge.

The Higgs exists.  That said, it doesn't mean ****.

CERN has been looking in the wrong direction since its very inception.  But I guess it all has to start somewhere.  In the meantime, we'll keep to our heel, wondering just how long anything can remain unobservable.  Or better yet, we'll have a decent laugh, that anyone might wonder for the ways of nothing and still fail to grasp the most obvious answers.

If only we all had free will, or the fates saw fit to enslave everyone the same.  But you go on believing you're alive, while the rest wait until the ladies see fit to show what we already know.  And for everyone luckless enough to get plucked; don't blame the Pleiades, just be thankful it had to be you and no one else.  You were born for it, after all.  You miss your cue, that's your fault, but there's always time to make curtain call.  That's refrain for ya, the simple matter of saving face.

Only the ghostwriters might have clue how to read you, let alone believe in me.  There's no shame in it.  It isn't just everyone comes along to show without showing what you know without knowing.  And we're never to be trusted.


#15    Habitat

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 02:54 AM

I'm tipping CERN will soon find a financial black hole the way things are in Europe.





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