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Capitalism has run its course-expect collapse


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#121    lightly

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 05:57 PM

I think the word itself is interesting.  Capitalism.    It translates as ONE ism?      Dog eat dog ism.    Which is sort of fair, until government becomes unfairly controlled by the biggest dogs at the expense of all the little dogs, which sort of describes our current situation?   I would rather that the social construct of "government"  be controlled by and more effectively serve the many,  rather than the few.  
      

capitalism |ˈkapətlˌizəm|
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.


per capita |pər ˈkapitə|
adverb & adjective
for each person; in relation to people taken individually : [as adv. ] the state had fewer banks per capita than elsewhere | [as adj. ] per capita spending.
ORIGIN late 17th cent.: Latin, literally ‘by heads.’

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#122    DieChecker

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 09:17 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 27 December 2011 - 02:08 PM, said:

Infact you have hit it right on the head - the whole object of capitalism as currently constituted is to defer the consequences to someone else - preferably someone in the dim distant future.
Isn't that actually how most Socialist and supposed Communist countries also work? They defer one thing or another to the future. Dictatorships defer human rights to the future, and populist socialist states defer their debt to the future. Look at the strongly socialist states of Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Being socialist did not save them from future ruin.

View Postquestionmark, on 27 December 2011 - 11:53 PM, said:

In fact, there are more billionaires per inhabitant in Sweden then there are in the USA... despite a 59% income tax rate for millionaires.
I've read the exact opposite, that in Scandenavia there are less millionares and less billionares per capita, but that could very well have been from a bias source.

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#123    Damrod

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 10:30 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 28 December 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

Isn't that actually how most Socialist and supposed Communist countries also work? They defer one thing or another to the future. Dictatorships defer human rights to the future, and populist socialist states defer their debt to the future. Look at the strongly socialist states of Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Being socialist did not save them from future ruin.


I've read the exact opposite, that in Scandenavia there are less millionares and less billionares per capita, but that could very well have been from a bias source.

rotflmao...I have also read that if you step on a crack you break your mother's back...derp-derp dude...you read biased and falsified information....the Nordic examples are alive and well and very happy (and successful)...while we are clustered,confused and dissatisfied...go figure...


#124    Mr_Snstr

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 10:52 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 28 December 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

Isn't that actually how most Socialist and supposed Communist countries also work? They defer one thing or another to the future. Dictatorships defer human rights to the future, and populist socialist states defer their debt to the future. Look at the strongly socialist states of Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Being socialist did not save them from future ruin.

Defering one thing or another can be a facet of any type of governance. That is; any type that is ran poorly. It's not exclusive to anyone form or another.


#125    Br Cornelius

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 03:10 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 28 December 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

Isn't that actually how most Socialist and supposed Communist countries also work? They defer one thing or another to the future. Dictatorships defer human rights to the future, and populist socialist states defer their debt to the future. Look at the strongly socialist states of Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Being socialist did not save them from future ruin.


I've read the exact opposite, that in Scandenavia there are less millionares and less billionares per capita, but that could very well have been from a bias source.
Where did you get the bizarre notion that Ireland is strongly socialist, it has been one of the strongest adherents to Neo-Liberal Chicargo school free market dogmatism in Europe. It has a similar health insurance system to America. It failed because it allowed its markets to much freedom to invest in overinflated commodities which eventually collapsed in value. Your analysis is totally wrong.

As I have said repeatedly - there is no material difference between capitalism and socialism on the macro level - they are both flawed expressions of a particular general ideology. They are both the problem and seeking to point fingers at either in isolation is missing the point entirely.

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#126    Mr_Snstr

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 04:04 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 29 December 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

As I have said repeatedly - there is no material difference between capitalism and socialism on the macro level - they are both flawed expressions of a particular general ideology. They are both the problem and seeking to point fingers at either in isolation is missing the point entirely.

Br Cornelius

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"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take away from them the power to create money and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money." -Baron Josiah Stamp, early 20th century industrialist.


#127    Tiggs

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 04:11 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 28 December 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

Isn't that actually how most Socialist and supposed Communist countries also work? They defer one thing or another to the future. Dictatorships defer human rights to the future, and populist socialist states defer their debt to the future. Look at the strongly socialist states of Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Being socialist did not save them from future ruin.
Nor did being Conservative.

The major party in Northern Ireland, Fine Gael, is Centre-Right. In Spain the major party is PSD - also Centre-Right.

Just because they're European, doesn't make them socialist.

Edited by Tiggs, 29 December 2011 - 04:13 PM.


#128    MonkeyLove

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:19 PM

Capitalism is not sustainable because it requires increasing production and consumption of goods fueled by increasing amounts of credit, with more moving from manufacturing and agriculture to financial speculation.

The result of the latter is a credit crunch, which we are experiencing right now, and which will eventually lead to a permanent global recession, more so since we have what is essentially a debt-ridden global economy.

The result of the former is a resource crunch, for which no amount of credit creation will solve.

Finally, claims of market forces and technofixes solving a resource crunch are worthless because the solutions involve other resources that may also be affected by a resource crunch due to overconsumption, pollution, and other factors.


#129    Swamptick

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:28 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 21 December 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

You are at the other side of the political spectrum to me and I'm interested in knowing why you think Capitalism causes moral collapse.

I'm pro-Capitalism. I think organisations should be aggressive and see themselves as vehicles for domination. I believe in Corporate Fascism where only the fittest survive because that leads to higher returns for investors, more tax contribution and jobs for people.

I'm against forcing organisations to see themselves as cells inside a body. It removes the evolutionary pressures which would have seperated the wheat from the chaff. All the red tape also holds them back from living up to their true potential. In essence I think Communism leads to the collapse of nations as their businesses lose their survival edge. Soviet Russia being the perfect example.

In my opinion moral collapse has nothing to do with Capitalism. The problem is with people themselves. An ideology can supress the darker side of peoples personalities but it still exists. Just as many crooks, criminals and deviants exist under a Communist State as a Theocracy, Democracy or Monarchy. As religion has lost its influence the undesirable side of peoples personalities has risen to the surface.

Finally someone who has the wit to see truth. I love you.


#130    and then

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:17 PM

I heard an interview with Bono once that summed up how attitudes differ between America and many European countries.  He said that in America a young man might look up on the hill at a mansion and say: someday, that'll be mine!  While in Ireland a young man would look at the mansion and say: someday that #$**$ will get his!

An over simplification to be sure but it also illustrates how people view capitalism.  Some will never give up until they've achieved success and others just blame everyone who's already achieved it.  Capitalism works better than anything else because of the incentive it creates for hard work.  The other isms work against human nature.  JMO  :)

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#131    Damrod

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:24 PM

View Postand then, on 31 December 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

I heard an interview with Bono once that summed up how attitudes differ between America and many European countries.  He said that in America a young man might look up on the hill at a mansion and say: someday, that'll be mine!  While in Ireland a young man would look at the mansion and say: someday that #$**$ will get his!

An over simplification to be sure but it also illustrates how people view capitalism.  Some will never give up until they've achieved success and others just blame everyone who's already achieved it.  Capitalism works better than anything else because of the incentive it creates for hard work.  The other isms work against human nature.  JMO  :)

If you are serious about trying to foster human nature...then try fostering the good parts, and not the ugly ones...things like ...

Kindness...

Compassion...

Charity...

Courage...

Sacrifice...

Temperance...

Tolerance...

Think about those...if the world practiced or even tried to pursue these things...just marvel at how wonderful we could be...

It's not corect, but I consider these things to be the 7 modern answers or rebuttals to the 7 deadly sins...it is within us to make a wonderful place...but we don't...

I forget the scripture...it is in Luke I think...that says..."The Kingdom of heaven is within men"....and I am betting that means that we have the capacity to overcome stupid racial and financial differences...if we choose too....

Edited by Damrod, 31 December 2011 - 03:31 PM.


#132    and then

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 04:25 PM

If you are serious about trying to foster human nature...then try fostering the good parts, and not the ugly ones...things like ...

I believe what you say is true.  I was simply noting what human nature is...  People come into their own virtues in their own good time.

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  for what could be, the darkest age...
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#133    Br Cornelius

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:49 PM

View Postand then, on 31 December 2011 - 04:25 PM, said:

If you are serious about trying to foster human nature...then try fostering the good parts, and not the ugly ones...things like ...

I believe what you say is true.  I was simply noting what human nature is...  People come into their own virtues in their own good time.
A system which fosters mainly the sins cannot be considered a true reflection of human nature. I certainly do not see it in most of my fellow humans.
Most people want a sufficiency - and that is an appropriate position to take on the road towards sustainability.

The desire to want more then you need ultimately means someone has to pay to give you a piece of their slice of the sufficiency - and that is why we have all our lovely cheap goods manufactured in the third world. If we cannot afford to make what we need here and pay a living to those who make them - then we cannot really afford to own those things.

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#134    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 06:23 PM

View Postand then, on 31 December 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

I heard an interview with Bono once that summed up how attitudes differ between America and many European countries.  He said that in America a young man might look up on the hill at a mansion and say: someday, that'll be mine!  While in Ireland a young man would look at the mansion and say: someday that #$**$ will get his!

An over simplification to be sure but it also illustrates how people view capitalism.  Some will never give up until they've achieved success and others just blame everyone who's already achieved it.  Capitalism works better than anything else because of the incentive it creates for hard work.  The other isms work against human nature.  JMO  :)

I think thats a good reply.

If someone is born into a low income household the route you go through to joining the Middle or Upper Class is by getting a degree at University.

Can you imagine a shop assistant trying to run Sony, Toyota or BAE Systems? Good jobs require lots of brains which is why they come with high salaries.

If we all got paid the same then why bother getting the degree? Communism/Socialism is the negative mans ideology who seeks to lower the rest of mankind down to his level of incompetence so that his ego isnt threatened.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 31 December 2011 - 06:56 PM.


#135    Br Cornelius

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 09:15 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 31 December 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

I think thats a good reply.

If someone is born into a low income household the route you go through to joining the Middle or Upper Class is by getting a degree at University.

Can you imagine a shop assistant trying to run Sony, Toyota or BAE Systems? Good jobs require lots of brains which is why they come with high salaries.

If we all got paid the same then why bother getting the degree? Communism/Socialism is the negative mans ideology who seeks to lower the rest of mankind down to his level of incompetence so that his ego isnt threatened.
The thing is that there is no equality of opportunity. Do you know how much it costs to go to University - and even when you have been there is still preferential treatment which means your family position is holding you down. Just look into the actual figures for how many working class people go through university in the US or Britain - then comment on whether there is truly a path to the higher echelons of society based on your ability. Its just the bull story right wingers tell themselves to justify their privileged position in society. Let me say it again - bull.

And you keep on persistently referring to some bogus fantasy about Communism. Let it be said that there was a higher and more equal access to education with Soviet Russia than there is in modern day USA. Is that an advert for socialism - maybe, but its certainly not the point you keep missing about this thread.

I think you repeated references back to capitalism vs communism is proof positive that the right wing mind is a testament to the failure of modern day education to make people actually think for themselves.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 31 December 2011 - 09:19 PM.

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