448 replies to this topic

[__R_____]

Mr Walker, on 01 January 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

ill have a look later but if you atend one of the groups takling world famine you wil soon find tha tveey few peole can afford meat in their diet. I feed about a  hundred children in the the third world. This cost me 6 CENTS per meal for a child  to provide a healthy and nutritious meal but it doesnt include meat because of the prohibitive cost.
Many indians are vegans for religious reasons otherds for cultural ones.
Ps i should have clarified i dont mena that mos tof the world choses to be vegetraibn simply that they have no choice because of availability and cost of food sources Iam sure most third world peole would love to eat meat If they did of course the world would go to hell in a hand basket even faster . At the moment costs of all foods are increasing astronomically in the third world becuse of the conversion of a lot of food stocks especaily grain and maize to biomass for fuel sources. And guess whose using all that fuel.
We dont have to starve ourselves,  or even go hungry. The  value of the food we waste in our homes shops and restaurants, would feed most of the starving people and if we spent a couple of a percent   of our individual incomes that would do it too. Its not about overpopulation. Its about inequality of  access to resources. We take their resources as well as using our own. I require about 5 hectares of the earths surface to support me as a westerner A third world person gets by on a few hundred square meters of it  As a result the west dies of diseses causes by over eating while the third world diesof hunger and malnutrion
if all human slived like westerners we would require several earths to support our population . Fortunately  (for the earth)westerners are failing to reproduce themsleves at a sustainable rate and our numbers are starting to decrease in many countries.


Then you were doing something else wrong with yur diet A veagn diet requires a litle more thougthin slectiona nd variety It also requires a bit more creativity in cooking  But he problems you faced are the opposite to most staisticla evidences.
Hint, if this was the case why are "africans" producing 5 or so children per woman while weterners are producing less than two   

There are both longitudinal/generational and latitudinal(including large numbers)  studies which provide these evidences these are run by universities hospitals and others. MAny are financed by govts in places like austrlalia, which has a mixed sociality /capitalist society and feels that  individual health matters are alos a ntions. A ustralia provides free medicalla and hospital cover to most people

Its like smoking or drinking. I am not here to convince others to live a healthy life, but I will point out the statistical evidences on any of these things . I've given statistics many times before. I'll have a quick look and see if i can find a few but, really ,if you are interested, thats your job. Your health(and anyone elses) is your/their responsibility (unless i have to pay for your medical expenses with my tax dollars)

A lot of smokers live healthily to 100 but no one today would argue that smoking is not an unhealthy habit which causes numerous diseases and millions of deaths. Here's a basic article which covers many of your questions in detail, although it does not provide references for all its sources.

http://www.freedomyo...Modern Meat.htm

Here's another one, which does supply refernces.

http://www.livestron...egetarian-diet/ Finally, heres a very detailed 'academic' article with a lot of references and commentary.

http://www.vanderbil...gy/vegpage.html

You and your logic (spot on as usual)       

[barnsey]

f1gtr33, on 01 January 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

wow way to back an argument. So I guess condescension justifies your utter lack of evidence or thought - great job.  Maybe read something about anthropology - like anything - at all.  Oh and its "you're wrong" not "your wrong."  Just thought I'd help you out with basic possessives.

Ok maybe I'll try for him, firstly do you have any experience with the study of anthropology? If so I'm alarmed... Even more alarmed then when you get people quoting things that are wrong as fact, even though deep down their not sure themselves.
What you may find, is that you are wrong..  It's widely accepted amongst the scientific community including anthropological institutions that tHat meat eating was ESSENTIAL for human evolution! The brain is fat!

Human ancestors who roamed the dry and open savannas of Africa about 2 million years ago routinely began to include meat in their diets to compensate for a serious decline in the quality of plant foods.

It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain.

Without meat, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on.

There is very little chance NYSE on impossible that the brain could of evolved to what some of us have now without the availability of energy dense animal fats and meats..

From someone who does actually study anthropology.

Peace.

[__R_____]

barnsey, on 01 January 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Ok maybe I'll try for him, firstly do you have any experience with the study of anthropology? If so I'm alarmed... Even more alarmed then when you get people quoting things that are wrong as fact, even though deep down their not sure themselves.
What you may find, is that you are wrong..  It's widely accepted amongst the scientific community including anthropological institutions that tHat meat eating was ESSENTIAL for human evolution! The brain is fat!

Human ancestors who roamed the dry and open savannas of Africa about 2 million years ago routinely began to include meat in their diets to compensate for a serious decline in the quality of plant foods.

It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain.

Without meat, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on.

There is very little chance NYSE on impossible that the brain could of evolved to what some of us have now without the availability of energy dense animal fats and meats..

From someone who does actually study anthropology.

Peace.

And thus all cultures as a result eat "heaps" of meat - no.  I was addressing THAT idea, that we a hardwired to eat a ton of meat. Integration of meat is different than complete dependence.  Also as a person of anthropology you should know better than anybody that the world does not consume "heaps" of meat.  The obvious health hazards that result from a meat heavy diet would indicate that we should not have a diet consisting mainly of meat.

Edited by f1gtr33, 01 January 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[Mistydawn]

Leonardo, on 31 December 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

I take it that you felt 'squeamish' seeing the suckling pig prepared for food, and now are considering giving up meat for ethical reasons?

I am not your conscience, Misty, but I do have an opinion regarding the above. If you felt upset over the preparation of suckling pig, then the simple solution is not to buy/eat suckling pig. If you feel upset over farming in general, then it is your prerogative to not buy farmed animal meat. I would recommend you investigate how to maintain a complete balanced intake of vitamins and minerals without consuming meat, however.

There really is no 'ethical argument' about whether to eat, or not eat, meat. It is purely a matter of personal conscience.

On a side note, I would be interested to see a study correlating the rise in vegetarianism with our anthropomorphisation of animals in film, tv and books. I suspect there is a causal relationship between the two.

The suckling pig incident Leonardo, simply brought the notion to give up meat to the fore again. I suppose if most of us had the actual animal on our dinner plate and could see the animal we were about to eat, it may turn many a stomach.

[Mistydawn]

Shabd Mystic, on 01 January 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

I've been a vegetarian for 14 years (gave up "red" meat 25 years ago) and finally gave up eggs a little over a year ago. While I was always interested in the health benefits (and there are MANY), and was always very big on the "animal welfare" end of the deal, the fact is that I don't believe either of those reasons would have been enough to get me to completely stop eating meat and eggs (and things such as gelatin, etc.). I say that just because my willpower likely wouldn't have been strong enough.

The true reason I did it was spiritual, and I knew from about age 13 that I would have to do it eventually if I wished to "achieve" the spiritual goals I had for myself. Without going into any of that, I will just say that vegetarianism is absolutely crucial if you are following any sort of a "mystical" path. While there are plenty of so-called mystical paths that don't stress vegetarianism, I can assure you that even the highest achieving "students" on such paths will NEVER go much past the "beginner" stages, no matter how long they try.

I don't want to start anything with others who might have differing opinions. I will only say getting spiritual advice is similar to getting advice on travelling to the moon. You can ask a frat buddy, a well-read man, or you can ask Neil Armstrong. There are countless books out there written by accomplished mystics who will tell you vegetarianism is one of the most important requirements for spiritual attainment. (I don't want to get any deeper into it than that as this really isn't the place for that.)

If, on the other hand, you aren't referring to spirituality in the "mystical" sense, I will just say that vegetarianism is very important to spirituality but without a way to actually prove this to yourself, all you will ever be left with are other people's opinions. And in such cases your choice often comes down to whoever manages to come up with the most compelling (to you) argument (vs. mysticism where you always have first-hand experience to tell you whether something is valid or invalid).

The only thing I can tell you to help gauge any non-mystical spiritual effect is to carefully monitor yourself after you go 100% vegetarian (where you don't consume anything that came from an animal's death). You will be amazed at the differences in many areas such as aggressiveness and anger that will start showing up in as little as a year. (Such changes will be much less if you live an otherwise "non-spiritual" life, though.) Although they might not be obvious to you right away, I promise they will be to those who know you (the changes can be absolutely remarkable depending on what you are like when you give up the animal products - in my case it was stunning).

I promise you that it will make a MAJOR difference if you live an otherwise spiritual existence (meaning you could be an atheist but you aren't a drug addicted alcoholic who cheats on your spouse and is very dishonest, etc.). And even if you are no better than "average" in that respect, you'll still see a difference, PLUS, over time, you will be amazed at how such a drastic change from not participating in the practice of hurting and killing will slowly help change many of the other "non-spiritual" aspects of your life that you might not otherwise be able to control.

Worst thing that happens is your health (and wallet) improves, and you vastly increase your belief that you overcome any "obstacle" in your life through willpower. So, what are you waiting for? Give it a shot!

.

Thank  you for your input Shabd, a very interesting perspective that I will give some thought to.

[hetrodoxly]

f1gtr33, on 01 January 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

wow way to back an argument. So I guess condescension justifies your utter lack of evidence or thought - great job.  Maybe read something about anthropology - like anything - at all.  Oh and its "you're wrong" not "your wrong."  Just thought I'd help you out with basic possessives.

I'm sorry if you thought my post curt, in my defence i'd had a drink and it was late nevertheless your still wrong, i'd not normally reply to fools who pick up on typos but here you go, http://www.nasw.org/...-powerful-brain

Could you please reply with evidence from globally respected universities, respected institutes and associations of academia don,t bother with Vegetarian or vegetarian funded sites it gets tedious, i hope you can educate and prove me wrong.

[Leonardo]

Mistydawn, on 01 January 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

The suckling pig incident Leonardo, simply brought the notion to give up meat to the fore again. I suppose if most of us had the actual animal on our dinner plate and could see the animal we were about to eat, it may turn many a stomach.

But we do not have the animal on our plate - except in some cases when eating certain foods such as crab, crayfish, etc. I would probably be squeamish about butchering an animal for food, although I might be able to do so if there was a necessity, but that does not mean I am squeamish when I see a steak on my plate.

Are you squeamish about seeing prey animals caught by predators on tv?

If not, then why are you squeamish about another predator - us - predating on animals?

Please understand, I am not attempting to convince you to remain an omnivore, but I am attempting to find out exactly what it is that you feel upset about, vis-a-vis humans eating meat. If it is because you 'empathise' with an animal, then is that not you projecting human-quality emotions, etc, onto the animal?

[Seeker79]

Mistydawn, on 30 December 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

I am thinking of giving up eating meat.

I would really appreciate some feedback... the pros and cons in a Spiritual context, not necessarily for health reasons.

Please share your thoughts. Much appreciated.

Hi,

My take on it in a spiritual context is simple. It's about respect. You do not have to not give up meat to love and respect the animal. In many ways consuming the animal is part of honoring it. I know that sounds strange but it's not if you meat it's the reverence while you are eating it.

In many ways vegetarians that make this decision for spiritual reasons are being ..... Well... Sort of dishonest. It's like the people that strap themselves to trees or that idiot that runs around harassing Japanese whalers. I am agreement with their cause but their actions are not about their cause it's about them and their own egos.

Farming does much more damage to the environment and life on earth than most people realize. Huge swaths of land are used and many ecosystems are destroyed. To reject meat and only eat plant material on some moral basis is to be very uneducated. That pound of broccoli also causes death and destruction. Don't get me started on pesticides and wasted tons of food.

Let's look at hunting. Hunters and their organizations buy huge swaths of land for conservation, higher talented biologists to manage populations, and in general put their money and hard work where their passion is.

Anti hunters just babble and try to get laws passed against the only people that have real intrest in conservation.

I once had a woman at a sportsman expo call me a murderer because I'm a bow hunter. I then latter saw her a Starbucks. The hypocracy astounds me.

Anyway. Don't give up meat because of spiritual reasons. Health... Carbon footprint... etc... Ok. But in truth, On a spiritual level, you may be the only person honoring the spirit, life, and sacrifice of the animal. If you want to be truly concouse of the animals life and spirit only buy from organic free range sources. Your demand for that contributes to the quality of life for those animals.

Thats just my take on it. I understand the draw to not be apart of the slaughter, but it's more honest and less egocentric to position yourself  in a context of the bigger picture.

[thedutchiedutch]

Mistydawn, on 31 December 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Well dutchie, lots of different things  but just this week I happened to switch channels of tv and came across a chef preparing a "suckling pig" I had to switch off and the image is stuck inside my head.

I understand. Good luck on giving up eating meat. I hope for you that you succeed.

[SamDavies]

Mistydawn, on 01 January 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

The suckling pig incident Leonardo, simply brought the notion to give up meat to the fore again. I suppose if most of us had the actual animal on our dinner plate and could see the animal we were about to eat, it may turn many a stomach.

I fully understand where you're coming from, Mistydawn. When I was twelve and taken on a school excursion to the local slaughter house I was horrified. I immediately gave up eating meat as did my Mum. I was a vegatarian for about seven years till I joined a bible cult (which I am thankfully no part of anymore). After reading the scriptural stand on consuming animals and the fact all the other cult members ate meat I started eating meat again, and big time consumption at that.

As I said in my earlier post I treat the animals I eat like the Native Americans did (and some still do). I give thanks and recognition to them.

I say give up eating meat for a time and see how you feel. It is a good experience anyway. But firstly make sure you have a full understanding of the protein and nutrient contant of the foods you substitute meat for. One of the best dishes my Mum came up with was a vegatarian Shephards Pie made with green lentils. IT was fantastic!!

By the way, can someone tell me the name given for someone who eats sea food and dairy products but no red meat. This is not vegatarianism. My Mum is in this catagory. Thanks.

[Ron Jeremy]

SamDavies, on 02 January 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

As I said in my earlier post I treat the animals I eat like the Native Americans did (and some still do). I give thanks and recognition to them.

I remember reading a historical article about the hunting habits of some tribes. They simply cut the best part of the animal and threw the rest of it away. Of course it would go back to the nature as a fertilizer, but waste is waste.

[Mistydawn]

Shabd Mystic, on 01 January 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

To paraphrase some of history's greatest mystics on this point, "you still have to live in this world." The object is to do so with causing the least possible harm to other living creatures. Ancient (and modern as well) mystical texts have always described "life forms" by the amount of "elements" they contain (ie. earth, air, fire, water is how they always described them).

As the mystics all said, it is impossible to live without constantly "killing." You can't take a step without killing countless creatures (heck, if you don't believe that just do a little research on "dust mites," lol). You can't even take a breath without killing.

The object is to do the least possible damage and the farther you climb along the so-called "food chain," the more "damage" you do - not only to the creatures who die, but more importantly to yourself.

On that scale, fruits, vegetables, grains, etc., have the lowest spiritual "karma" and are meant as man's food.

I’ve found everyone’s thoughts on the subject of not eating animals very helpful and some have given me even more to contemplate.

I love the natural world to a point of being daft about it and often get ridiculed for the way that I advocate animals rights as being as important as humans.

Although about half of my family, are vegetarian, one is vegan, we were raised as meat-eaters and I found my stance on respecting the animals we share our world with, late in life.

To date, I have always chosen to buy any meat product from sources that adhere to humane farming practices and only buy free-range eggs and organically grown vegetables assuming that at the very least, I am trying to live my life respectful of all other life.

I don’t eat “out” a lot though sometimes do lunch with work colleagues and usually then I eat fish as I find it easier to digest.

This is where I find myself to date, but recently over about the course of a year or so, have started to give a lot of thought to the fundamental argument that eating animals is unnecessary and should I have to slaughter and prepare the animal myself would I do it? I pretty much believe I would not be-able to do it other than in a life-saving situation and even then doubt I could do it. I can’t kill a fly never mind a lamb, cow, pig, or whatever.

Everyone’s thoughts and often well-read arguments for and against here are helping me to give proper consideration to whether or not I stop eating meat altogether. The issue of eating fish lies along-side of course and how the change in my diet would affect me is something that I hadn’t before considered other than in a spiritual way.

I loved your point that my carbon foot-print would be less but that I can’t prevent myself from being a killer completely, as with the dust-mites analogy!!

Doing the least damage to myself, taking myself as a”whole (spiritual and living being) and to the planet about sums up why I am looking to others for their input. Thank you Shabd.

[Mistydawn]

Seeker79, on 01 January 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Hi,

My take on it in a spiritual context is simple. It's about respect. You do not have to not give up meat to love and respect the animal. In many ways consuming the animal is part of honoring it. I know that sounds strange but it's not if you meat it's the reverence while you are eating it.

In many ways vegetarians that make this decision for spiritual reasons are being ..... Well... Sort of dishonest. It's like the people that strap themselves to trees or that idiot that runs around harassing Japanese whalers. I am agreement with their cause but their actions are not about their cause it's about them and their own egos.

Farming does much more damage to the environment and life on earth than most people realize. Huge swaths of land are used and many ecosystems are destroyed. To reject meat and only eat plant material on some moral basis is to be very uneducated. That pound of broccoli also causes death and destruction. Don't get me started on pesticides and wasted tons of food.

Let's look at hunting. Hunters and their organizations buy huge swaths of land for conservation, higher talented biologists to manage populations, and in general put their money and hard work where their passion is.

Anti hunters just babble and try to get laws passed against the only people that have real intrest in conservation.

I once had a woman at a sportsman expo call me a murderer because I'm a bow hunter. I then latter saw her a Starbucks. The hypocracy astounds me.

Anyway. Don't give up meat because of spiritual reasons. Health... Carbon footprint... etc... Ok. But in truth, On a spiritual level, you may be the only person honoring the spirit, life, and sacrifice of the animal. If you want to be truly concouse of the animals life and spirit only buy from organic free range sources. Your demand for that contributes to the quality of life for those animals.

Thats just my take on it. I understand the draw to not be apart of the slaughter, but it's more honest and less egocentric to position yourself  in a context of the bigger picture.

I totally get your point on the farming issue, especially of field and fields of the same crop, use of pesticides etc and how it affects the native wild-life.. I guess though everyone has to start somewhere otherwise change for the better can never occur..

[SamDavies]

Ron Jeremy, on 02 January 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

I remember reading a historical article about the hunting habits of some tribes. They simply cut the best part of the animal and threw the rest of it away. Of course it would go back to the nature as a fertilizer, but waste is waste.

Most tribes used as much of the animal as possible. They naturally ate the meat. But the skin and bone of animals was assential for clothing, sowing, baskets, blankets and the list goes on. Some parts naturally can not be utilised and thus goes back to the earth to be consumed by other living things. Native tribes world wide depending on their beliefs are joyful that when they die their bodies are given back to the ground to be eaten by other 'souls'. Some actually eat parts of their own dead in the belief the person becomes part of them so never dies (lovely concept). If I died in a survival situation I'd let my body be used to keep others alive. Not that their is much meat, just fat, lol.

[Seeker79]

Mistydawn, on 02 January 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

I totally get your point on the farming issue, especially of field and fields of the same crop, use of pesticides etc and how it affects the native wild-life.. I guess though everyone has to start somewhere otherwise change for the better can never occur..

This man I know has a 56 acre ranch. He practices perma culture and raises his own chickens, goats, lambs, and has a large organic garden. I help him maintain the ranch in trade for space for my own herd of goats and lambs. My chickens are at my house. we do not till the soil just a tiny bit on top., we only add compost on top. This builds the soil without depleting it. We simply do not add any chemicals to anything. All the animals are free range. Not a cent is spent on feed. the ranch entirely supports him and his family.

I understand the killing. And you are correct, it is dishonest to eat meat but not be willing to face the animal yourself, as it is to only eat vegetables that destroy ecosystems in the name of s concouse diet.  It takes me several weeks to get over killing something before I can enjoy it. But I take great pleasure in knowing that I honored the spirit of the animal before it left, that while it was here it lived a good life and was well cared for. By living this way I can carry that respect forward if I do happen to eat other meats. It would seem to me if somone wants to live concously the start is total honesty. Trading one dishonesty for another is pointless. All things alive deserve our respect but when we are really trying to honor ourselves by pretending to truelly honor what sustaines us, the gesture is lost. As Somone pointed out a pound of meat commercially grown has all this other agriculture put into it. It encompasses bad growing and bad livestock practices. You have power by way of your economic vote to create pressure in certain directions. By just giving up meat, you are only refusing to vote in one Catagory, you are not actually voting for the sustainable and ethical cause. This then makes your decision about you. Not the animals. Which is fine.., but something to think about.

Spiritually... Plants & Animals that are honored bring much more spiritual fulfillment, than those that are forgotten.

Good luck with your decision. I made my case

Edited by Seeker79, 02 January 2012 - 02:37 PM.