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Why won't govt explain this mystery?


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#376    Czero 101

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 06:34 PM

View PostQ24, on 26 January 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Forgive me if I’m wrong Cz, but it appears you completely disregard the poll based on the disclaimer.
Completely disregard? No, I wouldn't go that far, but I would say that given the conditions those results were achieved - online poll where anyone can vote, and anyone with even a little knowledge can figure out how to vote multiple times - I tend to be of the opinion that its results are not anywhere near as accurate as a more traditional poll where results tend to be more representative of reality.

Quote

I don’t find the small print interesting at all - it is necessary to add such to any poll to present the figures in context.  Even in election results we could add a disclaimer: “This vote does not reflect an informed public opinion and cannot be assumed to represent the best political party”.  It doesn’t change the result or render it meaningless.
It does't render it meaningless, but it does put it into clearer context.

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What we can say about the CNN poll is that it represents opinion of those 10,000 plus online who took interest enough to vote.  It shows there is huge support online for a cover-up surrounding 9/11.  Which, I guess we already knew.
But we have no way of knowing if the number of responses is accurate to the number of respondents. As I mentioned, with just a little knowledge, anyone can find ways to vote multiple times, skewing the results one way or another. More traditional polls have controls in place to reduce or even eliminate that problem.

The poll is also more than 7 years old so to say that it is representative of current attitudes and opinions would be rather incorrect.

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I don’t think we should reduce opinion poll results to insignificance due to the disclaimer.
But you can't take them to be an accurate representation of public opinion, either.

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Um, Cz… it is from CNN.
Really...? Gee, thanks, Q... so that's why there's a CNN logo on the image I posted... I was wondering about that... :rolleyes:

My point is that Alex Jones / Prison Planet is the one perpetuating the "89%", when the final results of the very same are lower than that, and he is misrepresenting the validity of the poll by removing the disclaimer.

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Anyhow, the polls you supplied are probably a better representation of wider opinion.
Most likely, yes.

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Wow, the number who do not accept the official narrative is huge!
And are dwarfed by those who do not put faith in the conspiracy theories out there, including the Controlled Demolition theory.




Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 26 January 2012 - 06:38 PM.

"Thinking is critical, because sense is not common..." - GreaterSapien
"Enquiring and doubting the "official story" are also good things .... However when these doubts require you to ignore the evidence, to dishonestly cherry pick evidence and claim it supports your case when it doesn't, when you operate a double standard; demanding proof of that which is already proven whilst making unsupported statements and personal opinions to back your own case and when you deny the truth simply because it IS the official story then you are no longer acting in a rational way. This is not the behaviour of a "different thinker", this is the behaviour of a "believer" who chooses not to rationally think about the evidence at all." - Waspie Dwarf

#377    Q24

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 07:32 PM

View PostCzero 101, on 26 January 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

My point is that Alex Jones / Prison Planet is the one perpetuating the "89%", when the final results of the very same are lower than that, and he is misrepresenting the validity of the poll by removing the disclaimer.
Sorry, I’m not sure if we are getting our wires crossed - 89% is the final result of the poll according to CNN.  Also I'm not entirely sure the disclaimer was there at time Prison Planet reported on the poll.  At least, I don't remember the disclaimer being present whilst the poll was still open - it only appeared after the poll was closed.

Perhaps you would like to paint this all as Prison Planet propaganda (either that or I'm completely misunderstanding where you're going with it), but this actually is mainstream media; CNN.


View PostCzero 101, on 26 January 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

And are dwarfed by those who do not put faith in the conspiracy theories out there, including the Controlled Demolition theory.
I wouldn’t say it is small or insignificant (those being the implications of “dwarfed”) when near 35 million adults in the U.S. believe the WTC demolition is credible.  And those polls say there are almost 59 million who believe 9/11 was fabricated as a pretext for the invasion of Afghanistan.  That’s as many as voted for McCain in the 2008 presidential election!  Wow, there are enough who see the 9/11 false flag in the U.S. to challenge the Republican party!

No wonder the truth movement has been described as a “mainstream political reality”.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#378    Babe Ruth

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 07:46 PM

Thank you for offering that Q.

I cannot remember the source, but it may have been 7 years ago.

Most people understand the government is very much less than truthful on any given subject.  Is that a bias?  Perhaps, but it's a bias tethered to reality.

Those whose positions on any subject are based upon the truthfulness of government are in a very weak position, given what we know.


#379    Czero 101

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 08:13 PM

View PostQ24, on 26 January 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

Sorry, I’m not sure if we are getting our wires crossed - 89% is the final result of the poll according to CNN.  

Yes, I see it now... For whatever reason, I was reading it as "80%". Apologies for my mis-interpretation.

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Also I'm not entirely sure the disclaimer was there at time Prison Planet reported on the poll.  At least, I don't remember the disclaimer being present whilst the poll was still open - it only appeared after the poll was closed.
You may be correct, but then that shows a shocking (and yet, unsurprising) lack of effort to present the most accurate information on the part of Jones / Prison Planet. While I won't go as far as to say it was a deliberate misrepresentation, the poll itself is not nearly as significant a barometer of the opinion of the people of the United States as Jones seems to want you to believe.

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Perhaps you would like to paint this all as Prison Planet propaganda (either that or I'm completely misunderstanding where you're going with it), but this actually is mainstream media; CNN.
True, but the results of this online poll can hardly be held up as equally representative of the American people's opinions than more reputable pollsters who take the time to ensure the accuracy of their polls.

There's also the vagueness of the CNN poll. It merely asks if one believes in a "cover-up". That can mean many different things to many different people. That doesn't mean that everyone who believes that something is being covered up in regards to 9/11 also believes the conspiracy theories.

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I wouldn’t say it is small or insignificant (those being the implications of “dwarfed”) when near 35 million adults in the U.S. believe the WTC demolition is credible.
Compared to the nearly 5 times as many - 171 million approximately - who don't...? Where does you interpretation of "dwarfed" begin? 6 times as many? 10...?

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And those polls say there are almost 59 million who believe 9/11 was fabricated as a pretext for the invasion of Afghanistan.
  
They also say that nearly 143 million don't believe that.

What of the near 155 million who believe that al-Qaeda and OBL were responsible for 9/11...?

The bottom line here is that, to one degree or another, these polls can be spun to represent whatever one wishes them to to show. What is undeniable, however, is that those who believe he various conspiracy theories represented are in the minority, some to a very large degree.




Cz

"Thinking is critical, because sense is not common..." - GreaterSapien
"Enquiring and doubting the "official story" are also good things .... However when these doubts require you to ignore the evidence, to dishonestly cherry pick evidence and claim it supports your case when it doesn't, when you operate a double standard; demanding proof of that which is already proven whilst making unsupported statements and personal opinions to back your own case and when you deny the truth simply because it IS the official story then you are no longer acting in a rational way. This is not the behaviour of a "different thinker", this is the behaviour of a "believer" who chooses not to rationally think about the evidence at all." - Waspie Dwarf

#380    booNyzarC

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 09:06 PM

View PostQ24, on 26 January 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

I wouldn’t say it is small or insignificant (those being the implications of “dwarfed”) when near 35 million adults in the U.S. believe the WTC demolition is credible.
Actually, it signifies that 15% of the people polled believe the WTC demolition is credible.  There were 1007 people polled.  That means 151 or so of the people polled find it credible.

Does that mean that 15% of the entire adult population in 2010 agree with the people polled?  Not necessarily.  It's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.


#381    Travelling Man

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 09:14 PM

You would need to get into the actual wording of the questions to determine if there was any pre-programed bias in the questions. The 15% that say that controlled demo is credible may not understand what the question actually MEANT and gave it that response to not seem "stupid." I learned from a statistical analysis course for psychology that respondents don't want to be thought of as dumb, and questions can be EXTREMELY misleading in how they are worded.

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#382    Q24

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:44 PM

View PostCzero 101, on 26 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Yes, I see it now... For whatever reason, I was reading it as "80%". Apologies for my mis-interpretation.
Aha, no prob.


View PostCzero 101, on 26 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

You may be correct, but then that shows a shocking (and yet, unsurprising) lack of effort to present the most accurate information on the part of Jones / Prison Planet. While I won't go as far as to say it was a deliberate misrepresentation, the poll itself is not nearly as significant a barometer of the opinion of the people of the United States as Jones seems to want you to believe.
It was just an article published mid-way through the polling – I’m not sure there’s much to be made of it.  Anyway, who cares what Alex Jones thinks?  You are the only one to bring him up.  Now we know that the 89% figure comes from CNN we can drop him.


View PostCzero 101, on 26 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Where does you interpretation of "dwarfed" begin?
As I said – at the point a figure becomes small or insignificant.


View PostCzero 101, on 26 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

What of the near 155 million who believe that al-Qaeda and OBL were responsible for 9/11...?
I don’t know, you tell me, I don’t understand what we are supposed to be proving to be honest.

I think you were trying to play down the truth movement… but it rather backfired when your poll showed as many U.S. adults believe 9/11 was a fabricated pretext as voted for McCain in the last presidential election - even comprising a minority, it would be naïve to waive away that many people as of no consequence.


View PostbooNyzarC, on 26 January 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Actually, it signifies that 15% of the people polled believe the WTC demolition is credible.  There were 1007 people polled.  That means 151 or so of the people polled find it credible.

Does that mean that 15% of the entire adult population in 2010 agree with the people polled?  Not necessarily.  It's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.
I was inclined to agree with precisely that at first glance.  Of course that argument works both ways – it talks down the whole poll.  It is actually the first argument I thought to counter the poll (especially as Cz had called into question the representation in the CNN poll – it seemed the fair way to go).  Then I read a bit further…

“The results have been statistically weighted according to the most current education, age, gender and region Census data to ensure a sample representative of the entire adult population of the United States.”


… and chose to accept the poll for thereabouts what it says.

I’m content to accept that around 60 million people in the U.S. alone believe the official 9/11 narrative is a “big fabrication”.

Perhaps argue it with Cz - it’s his source.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#383    skyeagle409

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 11:04 PM

Looking at this poll, most blame Al Qaeda, for the 9/11 attacks.

In 2001, 73 percent of voters believed bin Laden was responsible for the 9/11  attacks. Today 80 percent does.

At the same time the number saying UBL wasn’t  behind the attacks has doubled -- from 5 percent in 2001 to 11 percent in the  new poll. The remaining 9 percent are unsure, down from 22 percent in Sept.  2001.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.c.../#ixzz1kboEbjQD



And, this poll.


The collapse of the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings.

  • 77% "unlikely"
  • 10% "somewhat likely"
  • 6% "very likely"


  • My link


Edited by skyeagle409, 26 January 2012 - 11:13 PM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#384    Czero 101

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostTravelling Man, on 26 January 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

You would need to get into the actual wording of the questions to determine if there was any pre-programed bias in the questions. The 15% that say that controlled demo is credible may not understand what the question actually MEANT and gave it that response to not seem "stupid." I learned from a statistical analysis course for psychology that respondents don't want to be thought of as dumb, and questions can be EXTREMELY misleading in how they are worded.
I agree with you that wording is very important, which is why I mentioned something very similar with regards to the CNN "89%" online poll. They simply asked if they believed there was a cover-up. No specifics, just "a U.S. government cover-up", which can be interpreted innumerable ways.

However, the polls that I posted on the previous page had fairly specific questions, such as:

Quote

Question:
The collapse if the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings.

Answers: ( respondents)
Very likely 6%
Somewhat likely 10%
Unlikely 77%
Don't know 6%
Other response 1%
16% find it likely to some degree, while 77% find it unlikely. If we use Q's method for extending this to the entire US adult population which I believe he estimated to be approximately 230 million people, we find that roughly 37 million people would find it likely to one degree or another that there were explosives planted, while roughly 177 million find it unlikely.

The Scripps / Ohio University SHOH37 poll of Sept. 22, 2007 had 811 respondents, however the number of people who answered individual questions like the ones I quoted varied depending on answers to previous questions. The poll had the following information attached to it:

Quote

DESCRIPTION: This survey in the Fall of 2007 asks about home buying and mortgages. It asks respondents how important 11 issues are and which party the think would be most able to deal with each of thsoe issues. We also asked respondents how they feel about mandatory vaccination for young children. We asked how likely respondents feel certain conspiracy theories are.

DATE COMPLETED:
September 22, 2007

RESPONDENTS: 811

DOWNLOAD DATA:
No data available

The questions each had the following disclaimer attached to them:

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NOTE: The number of respondents to an individual question may vary from the number of respondents to the entire survey, as some items are restricted based on previous answers. The poll has an overall 4 percentage point margin of error, although the margin increases when examining attitudes among smaller groups within the survey. The margin for women only, for example, is 6 percent.

Its not possible to determine the number of respondents per question as the full data set for the entire survey is not available for download.

The Angus Reid poll I provided screen-shots from also asked fairly specific questions:

Posted Image

And has the following disclaimer attached to it:

Quote

From March 9 to March 10, 2010, Angus Reid Public Opinion conducted an online survey among 1,007 American adults who are Springboard America panelists. The margin of error—which measures sampling variability—is +/- 3.1%. The results have been statistically weighted according to the most current education, age, gender and region Census data to ensure a sample representative of the entire adult population of the United States.

Angus Reid also provides the following statement as to how their survey is conducted:

Quote

Angus Reid Public Opinion polls are conducted using the Angus Reid Forum (www.angusreidforum.com), Springboard America (www.springboardamerica.com) and Springboard UK (www.springboarduk.com) online panels, which are carefully recruited to ensure representation across all demographic and psychographic segments of these populations. Panel members pass through rigorous screening and a double opt-in process ensuring highly motivated and responsive members. These premier online survey platforms present respondents with highly visual, interactive, and engaging surveys, ensuring that panel members provide thoughtful and reliable responses. Each survey is actively sampled and weighted to model that characteristics of the universe required and employs the latest in quality control techniques to ensure data validity.

...

More information on the way Angus Reid conducts public opinion research can be found at
http://www.visioncri...public-opinion/




Cz

"Thinking is critical, because sense is not common..." - GreaterSapien
"Enquiring and doubting the "official story" are also good things .... However when these doubts require you to ignore the evidence, to dishonestly cherry pick evidence and claim it supports your case when it doesn't, when you operate a double standard; demanding proof of that which is already proven whilst making unsupported statements and personal opinions to back your own case and when you deny the truth simply because it IS the official story then you are no longer acting in a rational way. This is not the behaviour of a "different thinker", this is the behaviour of a "believer" who chooses not to rationally think about the evidence at all." - Waspie Dwarf

#385    Babe Ruth

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 02:39 AM

Well, the redneck experience is that mostly anybody who is actually curious enough to talk about it, will, after viewing the presentation by Richard Gage at A&E, admit that it makes sense to them.

Alot of people are too afraid to ask the question--they don't like to talk about it. :cry:


#386    skyeagle409

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:04 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 27 January 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

Well, the redneck experience is that mostly anybody who is actually curious enough to talk about it, will, after viewing the presentation by Richard Gage at A&E, admit that it makes sense to them.

Alot of people are too afraid to ask the question--they don't like to talk about it. :cry:


The bottom line is, most people do not believe the 9/11 conspiracy folks.

Edited by skyeagle409, 27 January 2012 - 03:08 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#387    Sakari

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:31 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 27 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

The bottom line is, most people do not believe the 9/11 conspiracy folks.


:yes:  :tu:

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#388    quillius

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:24 AM

View PostQ24, on 26 January 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Transcript: -http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041111195501242Um, !

thank you Q24.

View PostCzero 101, on 26 January 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Posted Image

just a quick note here on the survey results posted by CZ. The one which asks the four specific questions, including 'do you think that the planes never hit the WTCs and the images were all fabricated'...this returned a 6% yes/credible response. If we look at the less far fetched questions above it we have a ceiling of 15%, in this instance it is quite safe to assume that the same 6% also voted yes on the above...so my point is-how much credence should we give to the opinion (as a whole) of those that believe the images of the planes hitting could be fabricated?

View PostTravelling Man, on 26 January 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

You would need to get into the actual wording of the questions to determine if there was any pre-programed bias in the questions. The 15% that say that controlled demo is credible may not understand what the question actually MEANT and gave it that response to not seem "stupid." I learned from a statistical analysis course for psychology that respondents don't want to be thought of as dumb, and questions can be EXTREMELY misleading in how they are worded.

exactly travelling man. My initial question as to the 'shows' favoured position (to which Q24 kindly attached the transcript for) is important for the reason you posed regarding pre-programed bias in not only the question but also the selection of people to be surveyed, along with tone and situation when questions are asked.

:tu:


#389    Babe Ruth

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 01:43 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 27 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

The bottom line is, most people do not believe the 9/11 conspiracy folks.


The curious part Sky, is why so many folks believe a government that so consistently commits fraud, and believe a fable that cannot be proven EXCEPT by specious government statements?   :wacko:


#390    Q24

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:52 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 27 January 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

The curious part Sky, is why so many folks believe a government that so consistently commits fraud, and believe a fable that cannot be proven EXCEPT by specious government statements?   :wacko:
The problem is that some think of their government as an extension of themselves; in the end one and the same.  It is not realised that the individual and the government are operating on completely different levels with different priorities in mind (especially when it comes to the world’s pre-eminent power).

One is concerned with their own comfort and wellbeing, the other with power, control and shaping the globe.  The two do not always go hand in hand.  This is why government pretexts are required to aim public opinion in the ‘right’ direction.

It is well known by experts of the game: -

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”


In viewing what has been said, we see this fact was not lost on Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.




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