102 replies to this topic

[Sevastiel]

fox4kc.com said:

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Police are investigating after a Northland farmer reported that one of his cows had been found dead and mutilated, apparently by someone who a veterinarian says knew what they were doing.

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[Hazzard]

Yep. Had to be someone from another starsystem...  

[libstaK]

“(It’s) just amazing how whoever does this terrible thing to animals seems to know what they are doing,” said Phillip. - from the article.

How is it amazing? Of course it was someone familiar with cow biology - any abbattoir worker, butcher or farmer would fall into that category.  Or is it just random chance that all these perfectly cut steaks make it to millions of dinner tables all the time?

What is intriguing is that the article says:

- the cow was alive when it was mutilitated
- there was no blood
- the mutilation does not appear to be the cause of death

[Lilly]

I question this conclusion, if the mutilation took place post-mortum there would have been very little bleeding, consistent with what was seen. I wonder how it was determined that the mutilation took place while the animal was still alive?

[Sevastiel]

My own thoughts?

Cow was sick.
Not sure how insurance covers that, but freak accident is probably covered.
If you're a rancher, you probably learn a little something about caring for your own cattle to avoid the high costs of veterinary service.

Otherwise, sounds like media sensationalism.
Good share anyway though (I thought).  Never know.

[and then]

Not sure about ET's here but I did have an uncle who was arrested for cattle rustling in 1966 (true story)
He and some friend were a wee bit in their cups and decided to have a barbecue for the crowd at the bar.  Problem was...no cow soooooo

Anyway - he never did THAT again.

[Englishgent]

Lilly, on 07 January 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

I question this conclusion, if the mutilation took place post-mortum there would have been very little bleeding, consistent with what was seen. I wonder how it was determined that the mutilation took place while the animal was still alive?

I agree totally..
If the cow was mutilated whilst still alive, there would be blood gushing out all over the place. Would be interesting to see how they came to the conclusion that the cow was still alive when mutilated.

[Mallaliak]

Englishgent, on 07 January 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I agree totally..
If the cow was mutilated whilst still alive, there would be blood gushing out all over the place. Would be interesting to see how they came to the conclusion that the cow was still alive when mutilated.

I am just going out with a guess here, since I admittedly did not pay as much attention in school during the one session we had to disect a rat. But does not blood coagulate/dry up once the heart and lunges ceases to work? (Well at certain rate, not instantly) If it does, it would slow or halt the blood, in addition to no heartbeat to pump said blood.

But a thought came to me now of some local news I read 3-4 years ago. (Varnhem, located between Skövde and Skara in sweden for reference). There were some farmers who had issues with ravens, who would kill lambs and sheep to eat up the exposed organs, aswell as eyes and other soft tissue. It does add a bit more food for thought.

[Englishgent]

Mallaliak, on 07 January 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I am just going out with a guess here, since I admittedly did not pay as much attention in school during the one session we had to disect a rat. But does not blood coagulate/dry up once the heart and lunges ceases to work? (Well at certain rate, not instantly) If it does, it would slow or halt the blood, in addition to no heartbeat to pump said blood.

But a thought came to me now of some local news I read 3-4 years ago. (Varnhem, located between Skövde and Skara in sweden for reference). There were some farmers who had issues with ravens, who would kill lambs and sheep to eat up the exposed organs, aswell as eyes and other soft tissue. It does add a bit more food for thought.

Blood  coagulates mainly when exposed to air which is why it dries up and stops bleeding when you have a small cut. . This is due to 'platelets in the blood coming into direct contact with the air.' Unless it is a large cut like though a main vein or artery at which point it pumps out (due to the heart beating) at such a rate that the platelets are unable to coagulate fast enough to stop the bleeding. . If a body is cut once the heart stops beating, there will still be some bleeding but the blood will tend to seep out more slowly and at a steady rate, (no pumping effect)
Also, once the heart stops beating, the blood starts to sink due to gravity, to the lower extremeties of the body. If the body of the cow, for instance, is laying down and you start to cut at the top half (from ground level), there would be less blood than if you started at the bottom half.Obviously a lot would depend on how long the body had been dead. An extremely fresh body will still have a fair bit of blood oozing out as it takes a little time for the blood to sink to the lower section of the body.
In the cases of cattle mutikation, the animal is often found the next day, which is considered reasonably fresh. If the animal had been alive when mutilated, I would expect a fair bit of blood at the scene although a lot would depend on how and where the animal had been mutilated. I suppose an expert could do this without cutting a main artery but even so, there would be quite a bit of blood unless it was being mopped up as they went along.
I hope this answers your question

[Mallaliak]

Englishgent, thank you for that explenation.

[Farmerboy]

The best I can come up with from my own experience is that the cow slipped her calfbed (uterus) and died, any scavengers would target the soft tissues of the exposed uterus and the udder although its hard to judge without seeing the wounds. If she went on her back the blood would have drained from the udder and if the uterus was removed close to the body the blood may have remained in the body cavity. Thinking back any cattle/sheep I have come across that have been partially scavenged leave little blood and the wounds can look quite professional.

It can be quite common for this to happen, especially if she had recently calfed although it can be easily corrected if caught.

[Lilly]

Farmerboy, on 07 January 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

The best I can come up with from my own experience is that the cow slipped her calfbed (uterus) and died, any scavengers would target the soft tissues of the exposed uterus and the udder although its hard to judge without seeing the wounds. If she went on her back the blood would have drained from the udder and if the uterus was removed close to the body the blood may have remained in the body cavity. Thinking back any cattle/sheep I have come across that have been partially scavenged leave little blood and the wounds can look quite professional.

Excellent hypothesis.  

I'm always amazed at how some people seem to be so willing to jump to outrageous and/or paranormal conclusions before ruling out more common rational explanations.

[star energy]

Ok so how do police know when a person is killed, that they we're mutilated before or after death.  There"s something that tells them this.  What I don't know.  Like when a person is burned to death.  They know if the person was dead or alive before the burning. With all the evidence they have, or don't have on this cow, I would look to the sky too.

[Farmerboy]

star energy, on 07 January 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Ok so how do police know when a person is killed, that they we're mutilated before or after death.  There"s something that tells them this.  What I don't know.  Like when a person is burned to death.  They know if the person was dead or alive before the burning. With all the evidence they have, or don't have on this cow, I would look to the sky too.

Well a vet isn't a forensic scientist and the cost of a post mortem would be more than the price of the animal. If a person was mutilated when alive there would be bloodloss, bruising etc, if burnt alive there would be smoke in the lungs etc. Its also easy to jump to conclusions, the work of a scavenger can look like that of a professional with a scalpal.

[Englishgent]

star energy, on 07 January 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Ok so how do police know when a person is killed, that they we're mutilated before or after death.  There"s something that tells them this.  What I don't know.  Like when a person is burned to death.  They know if the person was dead or alive before the burning. With all the evidence they have, or don't have on this cow, I would look to the sky too.

These things show up in a post mortem.
For instance, if a person is set alight whilst alive, there would be carbon deposits in the lungs  and possible burning of soft tissue in the mouth throat and lungs because he would still be breathing and taking in the flames, smoke etc. A person who was dead prior to being set alight would not show these post mortem signs.
The cow's death is probably as explainable as most  alleged cattle mutilations without having to look skywards

Edited by Englishgent, 07 January 2012 - 03:01 PM.