168 replies to this topic

[Dying Seraph]

HavocWing, on 20 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Here is a description I think best suits the biblical god:

Is maniacal, short-tempered, flamboyant, destructive, and cruel. He is a completely insane psychopath with no regard for human life or remorse for any atrocities that he commits. On the contrary, he, in fact, finds amusement in the suffering and death of others.

http://finalfantasy....i/Kefka_Palazzo

If I may ask which God of the Bible is this in refference to? El-Shaddai? YHWH the Midianite God whom appropriations of Baal and El were taken? Or Jehovah the peaceful hippy God of the NT?

Personally on face value of reading the OT, I am inclined to agree with you. God seems a rather malicious tyrant.

Edit:Spelling


SINcerely,

Edited by Dying Seraph, 20 January 2012 - 03:42 AM.

[james1951]

HavocWing, on 20 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Here is a description I think best suits the biblical god:

Is maniacal, short-tempered, flamboyant, destructive, and cruel. He is a completely insane psychopath with no regard for human life or remorse for any atrocities that he commits. On the contrary, he, in fact, finds amusement in the suffering and death of others.

http://finalfantasy....i/Kefka_Palazzo

Just remember that you are taking your understanding of God through the writings and minds of superstitous people living in a time and place you probably might not survive in for a week.
If you would try to understand the concepts being expressed and not take the words literally, you might see a different God. The God that Jesus tried to describe.
God gave ten commandments and moses had to make humdreds of laws because the people were to ignorant and evil to simply abide by the ten commandments.
Jesus cut to the chase. He gave two commandments and if you want to try to justify not obeying them, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you.
1. Love truth and righteousness above all else
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
If oneis too ignorant and evil to not understand that thou shalt not Kill Steal bear false witness and commit adultery based on those two commandments then they are not worthy of the Spirit of Truth/Jesus.
And if they do not understand that in order to do the right thing, one must put truth and righteousness above all else and let it be the true lord of their actions, they are not worthy of the heaven that comes with high self esteem amd the fulfillment of their needs of love and self actualization.
"Not alll who cry Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my father in heaven, the spirit or truth and righteousness".

[HavocWing]

james1951, on 20 January 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

Just remember that you are taking your understanding of God through the writings and minds of superstitous people living in a time and place you probably might not survive in for a week.
If you would try to understand the concepts being expressed and not take the words literally, you might see a different God.

I grew up in the middle of the L.A. metropolitan area, less then five miles away from downtown Los Angeles, about 3 miles from compton, try living there.  Don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, common sense.  Too many retards on this planet who want to be a god and mimic the biblical god, the biblical god is a very bad role model.  Too much bloodshed, intimidation. I see it in the people.

Edited by HavocWing, 20 January 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[james1951]

HavocWing, on 20 January 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

I grew up in the middle of the L.A. metropolitan area, less then five miles away from downtown Los Angeles, about 3 miles from compton, try living there.  Don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, common sense.  Too many retards on this planet who want to be a god and mimic the biblical god, the biblical god is a very bad role model.  Too much bloodshed, intimidation. I see it in the people.

I totally agree. It is this problem of taking literally what they read about a people thousands of years away in time and culture. When Paul wrote about slaves, he was writing in a time when slavery was an accepted practice. And what he said was Master treat your slaves fairly. The prodigal son spent all his inheretence and in desperation returned home to his father and asked just to be treated like one of his fathers slaves, for they faired far better of than he did after he had spent is fortune and was penniless.
The biblical god is based on the understanding of the writings of people who could be raped pillaged and murdered by hourde of mongols at any moment. It was a savage time when of vengeance and sacrificial offerings to a God people often concidered as vengeful as themselves.
Jesus brought to us a vision of a loving PERSONAL God who forgives us and cleanses us when we stop doing evil things. The same OT God who told his people as a NATION if they turned from their wicked ways he would forgive their sins and heal their land.

The key has always been the concept of "freewill" in which people do not have to do the right thing and what happens to such people. Sure we can set up a criminal justice system but what if that system is itself corrupt, then who punishes the evil or those you cannot catch?
PEOPLE have always needed a god who would avenge the wrongs of others.
And there is a god that does that. It is the god of our subconscious. It is the god of TRUTH who will not be fooled by our justifications to others or our self justifications and will cause great neurosis to people who continually do evil and try to bury that truth under layers of denial and other psycholigical defensive mechanisms.
In the end the truth will out as many NDE have testified to.

[Shabd Mystic]

HavocWing, on 09 January 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Taken from http://en.wikipedia....od_as_the_Devil

The teaching of God as the Devil has been an accusation leveled at various Christian heretics from the 2nd century to the medieval period. In the modern period authors, such as Thomas Paine, have made the case that the Biblical god is a divine force that wreaks suffering, death, and destruction and that tempts or commands humanity into committing mayhem and genocide.

I already think that he is/if not more evil then the devil.  With all the blood on his hands.

I also think it's better to just start a topic in the hopes of not cluttering up others posts.

Also think that he is very narcissistic

NOTE: In the following I began by saying things such as "it is said" or "they teach," but i got tired of adding that with every line I typed so i stopped. If it looks as if I am trying to make such claims, it is only for that reason. I am only sharing something that "could" answer this and so many other questions of this sort. "My" beliefs are meaningless.


Many mystical traditions throughout history (Gnostics, Sufis, Sikhs, and many others) taught that the entity most think of as "God" is just the "ruler of creation." He is also "the creator" who the "True" God originally created in order to make all that we see (and don't see) and to keep it "running."

He is neither good nor evil, but runs "existence" on a strict rule of "justice." Some religions call it "karma." ("Ye reap what ye sew.")

When "bad" things happen, he is thought of as "Satan." When "good" things happen, he is thought of as "God." But, in actuality, it is taught that he only "dishes out" what YOU created via your own actions in numerous other lifetimes.

The "ruling god" is fully in charge of everything including the three heavens referenced by Paul in The Bible. There are heavens and hells, but they are only 'temporary," even if for very long periods. Someone like Hitler gets himself a nice long vacation in a hell where he can burn off many of the incredibly bad karmas he has earned before he has been "cleansed" enough to be sent back to work off his other karmas (of which there will still be countless numbers from many lifetimes).

As long as there are "karmas" then something is "owed" and must be paid. That can be "good" things or "bad" things or just 'average" things. Every action causes a 'reaction" (even thoughts and unfulfilled desires). Whether it is good or bad doesn't matter as it will cause you to be reborn (which is "creator god's" goal as he wants to keep all souls "here"). The great Mystics say, "whether made of gold or iron, handcuffs are handcuffs."

The "real" God is said to be nothing but 100% Love and Bliss (of a magnitude the human mind cannot even comprehend). Before creation He was all there was. Creation happened because He was 100% Love with "nothing to love." The "real" God is said to have absolutely no "ego."

The 'real" or "ultimate" God is more in line with the one described in the New Testament. The "god" 80% of the world believes is God (and prays to), is the "god" of the Old Testament. He is a "god" with an ego. He is a "god" who experiences "jealousy" (and demands that no "other God" be worshiped other than him). He is a "god" who experiences anger. He is a "god" who "demands" and "punishes" and basically does what most any "human" would do if granted extraordinary powers.

His job is to keep this world in existence and he does that with countless "methods" or tricks. The human mind (and ego) are his greatest tools. As long as anyone is focused on "I" (ego) they will always be separate from the true God. The 'creator god" uses "passions" and "desires" and "ego" to keep us focused on "ourselves" (even when we "believe" we are acting for others).

All the world's religions were supposedly the result of a "True" Mystic who was sent here to "take home" those who were ready. ("While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.") The Mystic never came to start a "religion" but "man" did so by taking His teachings and fashioning them so they would best suit an 'organization." (A religion.) Those religions are all designed firstly to suit "man" and to keep the religion in business. There is even a religion that claims all you have to do to be "saved" is to "believe" what they tell you.

It is taught that, and has been taught that, a "True Mystic" is ALWAYS in the world for those who are "ready' to find Him and "go Home." ("Seek and ye shall find.") There has always been one since the dawn of time (and sometimes more than one) and there have always been countless "false prophets." (And i promise you that anyone using the word "mystic" as part of their handle on a message board is NOT one of those Great Mystics. You won't ever find one on a "message board.")

These Mystics all teach that God can only be reached by "going inside" as that is where He is. Even Jesus said God is within you. Some call it "prayer" and some call it "meditation," but they are refering to the same thing despite what many want to believe (Paul even referenced that when he spoke of multiple heavens and how he didn't know if they were reached "in the body" or "outside of the body," or something like that, lol). All I can say is that mysticism is the only spiritual path where you can find out if it's "real" or "false" long before you die because, as Paul described, you will actually experience all that is "promised" and 'believed." You don't have to rely on "faith" and wait until you die to find out if you were right (when it's too late to "fix" anything).

Every religion has had mystics other than the One the religion was originally founded upon. But the human mind makes us think they were either "nuts" or "exaggerating" or "imagining things" or anything other than they had literally seen God (and countless incredible things) and communicated with Him. The human mind tells us they were just 'fanatical" and they went to a lot of trouble to get the same thing we are going to get. The human mind is our greatest foe and we haven't the slightest idea, lol.

Through meditation ("be still and know that I am God), which is described as the "one true prayer," you burn off countless future karmas and as you do you entire world begins to change in numerous ways. Things such as anger and greed slowly dissolve until you can't even experience them, and more and more you are filled with love. All bad qualities begin to die to be replaced by good ones. The final "handcuff" is the very last to completely die (when it does you have attained "God realization") and often takes more than one lifetime. But as you are getting closer to "winning" the "contest" which is the only reason you were granted a human life, it becomes blatantly apparent how "spiritual" you've become. The Dali Lama is a great example of one who is full of love and joy and has VERY little ego remaining.

There is soooooo much more, but I know I've already bored everyone to death with such "craziness" so I'll leave it at that and let everyone tear it down so they can show how what "they" believe is the truth and everything else is false (for those paying close attention, try to recall what I said about the 'ego" being one of the "creator god's" greatest tools).

Edited by Shabd Mystic, 26 January 2012 - 05:44 AM.

[james1951]

Shabd Mystic, on 26 January 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

NOTE: In the following I began by saying things such as "it is said" or "they teach," but i got tired of adding that with every line I typed so i stopped. If it looks as if I am trying to make such claims, it is only for that reason. I am only sharing something that "could" answer this and so many other questions of this sort. "My" beliefs are meaningless.


Many mystical traditions throughout history (Gnostics, Sufis, Sikhs, and many others) taught that the entity most think of as "God" is just the "ruler of creation." He is also "the creator" who the "True" God originally created in order to make all that we see (and don't see) and to keep it "running."

He is neither good nor evil, but runs "existence" on a strict rule of "justice." Some religions call it "karma." ("Ye reap what ye sew.")

When "bad" things happen, he is thought of as "Satan." When "good" things happen, he is thought of as "God." But, in actuality, it is taught that he only "dishes out" what YOU created via your own actions in numerous other lifetimes.

The "ruling god" is fully in charge of everything including the three heavens referenced by Paul in The Bible. There are heavens and hells, but they are only 'temporary," even if for very long periods. Someone like Hitler gets himself a nice long vacation in a hell where he can burn off many of the incredibly bad karmas he has earned before he has been "cleansed" enough to be sent back to work off his other karmas (of which there will still be countless numbers from many lifetimes).

As long as there are "karmas" then something is "owed" and must be paid. That can be "good" things or "bad" things or just 'average" things. Every action causes a 'reaction" (even thoughts and unfulfilled desires). Whether it is good or bad doesn't matter as it will cause you to be reborn (which is "creator god's" goal as he wants to keep all souls "here"). The great Mystics say, "whether made of gold or iron, handcuffs are handcuffs."

The "real" God is said to be nothing but 100% Love and Bliss (of a magnitude the human mind cannot even comprehend). Before creation He was all there was. Creation happened because He was 100% Love with "nothing to love." The "real" God is said to have absolutely no "ego."

The 'real" or "ultimate" God is more in line with the one described in the New Testament. The "god" 80% of the world believes is God (and prays to), is the "god" of the Old Testament. He is a "god" with an ego. He is a "god" who experiences "jealousy" (and demands that no "other God" be worshiped other than him). He is a "god" who experiences anger. He is a "god" who "demands" and "punishes" and basically does what most any "human" would do if granted extraordinary powers.

His job is to keep this world in existence and he does that with countless "methods" or tricks. The human mind (and ego) are his greatest tools. As long as anyone is focused on "I" (ego) they will always be separate from the true God. The 'creator god" uses "passions" and "desires" and "ego" to keep us focused on "ourselves" (even when we "believe" we are acting for others).

All the world's religions were supposedly the result of a "True" Mystic who was sent here to "take home" those who were ready. ("While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.") The Mystic never came to start a "religion" but "man" did so by taking His teachings and fashioning them so they would best suit an 'organization." (A religion.) Those religions are all designed firstly to suit "man" and to keep the religion in business. There is even a religion that claims all you have to do to be "saved" is to "believe" what they tell you.

It is taught that, and has been taught that, a "True Mystic" is ALWAYS in the world for those who are "ready' to find Him and "go Home." ("Seek and ye shall find.") There has always been one since the dawn of time (and sometimes more than one) and there have always been countless "false prophets." (And i promise you that anyone using the word "mystic" as part of their handle on a message board is NOT one of those Great Mystics. You won't ever find one on a "message board.")

These Mystics all teach that God can only be reached by "going inside" as that is where He is. Even Jesus said God is within you. Some call it "prayer" and some call it "meditation," but they are refering to the same thing despite what many want to believe (Paul even referenced that when he spoke of multiple heavens and how he didn't know if they were reached "in the body" or "outside of the body," or something like that, lol). All I can say is that mysticism is the only spiritual path where you can find out if it's "real" or "false" long before you die because, as Paul described, you will actually experience all that is "promised" and 'believed." You don't have to rely on "faith" and wait until you die to find out if you were right (when it's too late to "fix" anything).

Every religion has had mystics other than the One the religion was originally founded upon. But the human mind makes us think they were either "nuts" or "exaggerating" or "imagining things" or anything other than they had literally seen God (and countless incredible things) and communicated with Him. The human mind tells us they were just 'fanatical" and they went to a lot of trouble to get the same thing we are going to get. The human mind is our greatest foe and we haven't the slightest idea, lol.

Through meditation ("be still and know that I am God), which is described as the "one true prayer," you burn off countless future karmas and as you do you entire world begins to change in numerous ways. Things such as anger and greed slowly dissolve until you can't even experience them, and more and more you are filled with love. All bad qualities begin to die to be replaced by good ones. The final "handcuff" is the very last to completely die (when it does you have attained "God realization") and often takes more than one lifetime. But as you are getting closer to "winning" the "contest" which is the only reason you were granted a human life, it becomes blatantly apparent how "spiritual" you've become. The Dali Lama is a great example of one who is full of love and joy and has VERY little ego remaining.

There is soooooo much more, but I know I've already bored everyone to death with such "craziness" so I'll leave it at that and let everyone tear it down so they can show how what "they" believe is the truth and everything else is false (for those paying close attention, try to recall what I said about the 'ego" being one of the "creator god's" greatest tools).

Bored?
I think not.
To me reading this was like reading the teachings of Jesus.
When you spoke of karma it caused me to think of the reap what you sow concept and how Jesus turned it into a proactive or positive by saying if you sow forgiveness, you will reap forgiveness. That to me is the salvation or freeing agent that frees us  from the karmic eye for an eye concept.
I also think about my own personal edperiences where I see that it is when I focus on what I do not have (but desire) that unhappiness results, but when I focus on what I do have (and am appreciative) then I am satisfied and happy.

God as the devil? Does it not depend on who or what one chooses as their God?

The rich young man went away very sad when he heard he had to give up his money to be with god. Yet he claimed to have kept the ten commandments all his life. jesus was merely showing he had not kept the most important commandment "thou shalt have no other gods before me" The young man kept hold of his god of money but went away "very sad". God/money as the devil? How many "rich" people have committed suicide "Kurt Kobain" and I am sure many more. Money is just one God that promises you happiness but doesn't deliver.

[james1951]

HavocWing, on 20 January 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

I grew up in the middle of the L.A. metropolitan area, less then five miles away from downtown Los Angeles, about 3 miles from compton, try living there.  Don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, common sense.  Too many retards on this planet who want to be a god and mimic the biblical god, the biblical god is a very bad role model.  Too much bloodshed, intimidation. I see it in the people.

Man made in the image of God or God imagined by the mind of man.

Man demands sacrifice.. God said "I desire mercy not sacrifice".

[HavocWing]

james1951, on 26 January 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Man made in the image of God or God imagined by the mind of man.

Man demands sacrifice.. God said "I desire mercy not sacrifice".

Your messiah demands sacrifice:

http://bible.cc/luke/9-23.htm
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

[james1951]

HavocWing, on 26 January 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Your messiah demands sacrifice:

http://bible.cc/luke/9-23.htm
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

The Messiah made the sacrifice. We are invited to share in it. And to share in the rewards it presents to us.
Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
You make sacrifice sound like a burden or something evil. Sacrifice has rewards associated with it.

[HavocWing]

james1951, on 26 January 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

The Messiah made the sacrifice. We are invited to share in it. And to share in the rewards it presents to us.
Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
You make sacrifice sound like a burden or something evil. Sacrifice has rewards associated with it.

If there is reward, then it isn't a sacrifice.  And you CAN NOT demand sacrifice.  What that is is just plain ol' blackmail.

[Spock_the_Future]

james1951, on 20 January 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

Just remember that you are taking your understanding of God through the writings and minds of superstitous people living in a time and place you probably might not survive in for a week.
If you would try to understand the concepts being expressed and not take the words literally, you might see a different God. The God that Jesus tried to describe.
God gave ten commandments and moses had to make humdreds of laws because the people were to ignorant and evil to simply abide by the ten commandments.
Jesus cut to the chase. He gave two commandments and if you want to try to justify not obeying them, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you.
1. Love truth and righteousness above all else
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
If oneis too ignorant and evil to not understand that thou shalt not Kill Steal bear false witness and commit adultery based on those two commandments then they are not worthy of the Spirit of Truth/Jesus.
And if they do not understand that in order to do the right thing, one must put truth and righteousness above all else and let it be the true lord of their actions, they are not worthy of the heaven that comes with high self esteem amd the fulfillment of their needs of love and self actualization.
"Not alll who cry Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my father in heaven, the spirit or truth and righteousness".

Hi,
   You are saying both things at the same time. ONE you say that "Just remember that you are taking your understanding of God through the writings and minds of superstitous people living in a time and place you probably might not survive in for a week."
TWO you say "Jesus cut to the chase. He gave two commandments and if you want to try to justify not obeying them, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you."

Isn't the words in TWO the words written by the same people as in ONE ?

[james1951]

HavocWing, on 26 January 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

If there is reward, then it isn't a sacrifice.  And you CAN NOT demand sacrifice.  What that is is just plain ol' blackmail.

That is where you are wrong. The monkey  with his hand must FIRST sacrifice the cookie before he is rewarded with the freedom to take his hand out of the jar and then turn the jar upside down and receive a whole jar of cookies.

[Spock_the_Future]

james1951, on 26 January 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

That is where you are wrong. The monkey  with his hand must FIRST sacrifice the cookie before he is rewarded with the freedom to take his hand out of the jar and then turn the jar upside down and receive a whole jar of cookies.

Hi,
   What I don't understand is why is specifically a Sacrifice required before a Reward ? Isn't my good life enough ? And as for the monkey, what if he turns the Jar upside down first ? would he still have to sacrifice something ?

[james1951]

Spock_the_Future, on 26 January 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Hi,
   You are saying both things at the same time. ONE you say that "Just remember that you are taking your understanding of God through the writings and minds of superstitous people living in a time and place you probably might not survive in for a week."
TWO you say "Jesus cut to the chase. He gave two commandments and if you want to try to justify not obeying them, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you."

Isn't the words in TWO the words written by the same people as in ONE ?

Just as the serpent tricked Adam and Eve in the garden of eden with the words of God and they fell prey to the trap of judgement and all its attendant evils.
Jesus also wrestled with satan in the wilderness but with each word of God satan used to tempt Jesus, Jesus pointed out that satan was using those words out of context.
Like the rich young man who claimed he had kept the ten commandments from his youth, jesus showed the lie  as the man had made his love of money his god and when offered a relationship with the god of truth and righteousness the young man chose the money and went away "very sad".

And Jesus said aboutthe pharisees and sadduccees, listen to what they say for they hold the words/laws of moses but do not do what they do for they do not know the spirit/context of those words/laws.

Jesus said all the laws of moses would be fulfilled by just following his two commandments.

Again how ignorant must a man be to not understand that to love truth and righteousness and to love your neighbor does not allow one to break the law to not kill, steal, commit adultery, etc.
It is ignorant people who have to be told specifically what they should not do. People who love truth and righteousness - obey the first command - in fulfilling the second command - loving their neighbors.

Why do you need moses or solomon to tell you the right thing to do.

Like Jews are suppose to obey the bible... when solomon was asked how to divide the land equally between two sons  he said let one son divide the land and the other son have the first choice. Do you think the Jews would be so righteous as to obey that law. No they would rather murder the other son and all his children, then they can just steal their brothers land. How much further do the jews have to travel from god before they can even return to the path where cain slew abel and right that wrong?

[HavocWing]

james1951, on 26 January 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

That is where you are wrong. The monkey  with his hand must FIRST sacrifice the cookie before he is rewarded with the freedom to take his hand out of the jar and then turn the jar upside down and receive a whole jar of cookies.

So he's the tempter?  He's tempting me with cookies, ya just gotta sacrifice everything else?  Nope, doesn't work with me.  I never anointed him.