67 replies to this topic

[Xpeople]

Does anyone have evidence that Al-qaeda exist?  Please show me.

[SikFly]

Uh, kinda odd question cause most people think al qaeda is an organization and it is not, nor was it intended to be...people just originally took it that way and it stuck.
In case you don't relalize, it's a collective term that means loose knit Terror cells...which does exist btw. *edit. Oh yeah it's also the name of a database file, but for now its use references terrorists as a collected form to keep it simple I guess

Edited by SikFly, 12 January 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Lol its a rhetorical construct. Al qaeda is simply a boogey man...

[Karlis]

Xpeople, on 12 January 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Does anyone have evidence that Al-qaeda exist?  Please show me.

Interesting question.

The following excerpt is from one of many similar articles found through Google:

28 November 2003
Does al-Qaeda exist?
Not in the way that we think, say some terrorism experts.
by Brendan O'Neill

... Some terrorism experts doubt it. Adam Dolnik and Kimberly McCloud reckon  it's time we 'defused the widespread image of al-Qaeda as a ubiquitous,  super-organised terror network and call it as it is: a loose collection  of groups and individuals that doesn't even refer to itself as  al-Qaeda'. Dolnik and McCloud - who first started studying terrorism at  the prestigious Monterey Institute of International Studies in  California - claim it was Western officials who imposed the name  'al-Qaeda' on to disparate radical Islamic groups and who blew Osama bin  Laden's power and reach 'out of proportion'. Both are concerned about  the threat of terror, but argue that we should 'debunk the myth of  al-Qaeda' ...

...Dolnik argues that where many imagine that  al-Qaeda is 'a super organisation of thousands of super-trained and  super-secret members who can be activated any minute', in fact it is  better understood as something like a 'global ideology that has not only  attracted many smaller regional groups, but has also facilitated the  boom of new organisations that embrace this sort of radical and violent  thinking'.

Dolnik and others believe that, in many ways, the thing we  refer to as 'al-Qaeda' is largely a creation of Western officials. 'Bin  Laden never used the term al-Qaeda prior to 9/11', Dolnik tells me.  'Nor am I aware of the name being used by operatives on trial. The  closest they came were in statements such as, "Yes, I am a member of  what you call al-Qaeda".

The only name used by al-Qaeda themselves was  the World Islamic Front for the Struggle Against Jews and Crusaders -  but I guess that's too long to really stick.'

So  where did 'al-Qaeda' come from? Dolink says there are a number of  theories - that the term was first used by bin Laden's spiritual mentor  Abdullah Azzam, who wrote of al Qaeda al Sulbah,  meaning the 'solid base', in 1988; or that it derives from a bin  Laden-sponsored safehouse in Afghanistan in the 1980s, when he was part  of the mujahideen fighting against the Soviet invasion, again referring  to a physical 'base' rather than to a distinct organisation. But in  terms of 'al-Qaeda' then being used to define a group of operatives  around bin Laden - that, says Dolnik, originated in the West..
Source

Edited by Karlis, 12 January 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[Xpeople]

SikFly, on 12 January 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Uh, kinda odd question cause most people think al qaeda is an organization and it is not, nor was it intended to be...people just originally took it that way and it stuck.
In case you don't relalize, it's a collective term that means loose knit Terror cells...which does exist btw.

I guess an odd question must came with a odd answer.  Your answer would say yes and no which does not make any sense on any level.  Al qaede may as well be a ghost.

[Dredimus]

al-Qaeda (arabic translation - The Base) is a blanket term used to describe multiple groups with similar interest and goals. The major goal being the spread of Islamic rule.


a few known groups covered by "The Base":

Fatah al-Islam
Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat
Lashkar-e-Taiba
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Abu Sayyaf Group
Jemaah Islamiyah
Ansar al-Sunna

The list goes on....

Quote

Bin Laden explained the origin of the term in a videotaped interview with Al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Alouni in October 2001:

    "The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed"

[Xpeople]

Karlis, on 12 January 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Interesting question.

The following excerpt is from one of many similar articles found through Google:

28 November 2003
Does al-Qaeda exist?
Not in the way that we think, say some terrorism experts.
by Brendan O'Neill

... Some terrorism experts doubt it. Adam Dolnik and Kimberly McCloud reckon  it's time we 'defused the widespread image of al-Qaeda as a ubiquitous,  super-organised terror network and call it as it is: a loose collection  of groups and individuals that doesn't even refer to itself as  al-Qaeda'. Dolnik and McCloud - who first started studying terrorism at  the prestigious Monterey Institute of International Studies in  California - claim it was Western officials who imposed the name  'al-Qaeda' on to disparate radical Islamic groups and who blew Osama bin  Laden's power and reach 'out of proportion'. Both are concerned about  the threat of terror, but argue that we should 'debunk the myth of  al-Qaeda' ...

...Dolnik argues that where many imagine that  al-Qaeda is 'a super organisation of thousands of super-trained and  super-secret members who can be activated any minute', in fact it is  better understood as something like a 'global ideology that has not only  attracted many smaller regional groups, but has also facilitated the  boom of new organisations that embrace this sort of radical and violent  thinking'.

Dolnik and others believe that, in many ways, the thing we  refer to as 'al-Qaeda' is largely a creation of Western officials. 'Bin  Laden never used the term al-Qaeda prior to 9/11', Dolnik tells me.  'Nor am I aware of the name being used by operatives on trial. The  closest they came were in statements such as, "Yes, I am a member of  what you call al-Qaeda".

The only name used by al-Qaeda themselves was  the World Islamic Front for the Struggle Against Jews and Crusaders -  but I guess that's too long to really stick.'

So  where did 'al-Qaeda' come from? Dolink says there are a number of  theories - that the term was first used by bin Laden's spiritual mentor  Abdullah Azzam, who wrote of al Qaeda al Sulbah,  meaning the 'solid base', in 1988; or that it derives from a bin  Laden-sponsored safehouse in Afghanistan in the 1980s, when he was part  of the mujahideen fighting against the Soviet invasion, again referring  to a physical 'base' rather than to a distinct organisation. But in  terms of 'al-Qaeda' then being used to define a group of operatives  around bin Laden - that, says Dolnik, originated in the West..
Source

Can you show more articles?  This is getting interesting.

[Karlis]

Xpeople, on 12 January 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Can you show more articles?  This is getting interesting.

Do you know how to use Google?

[Dredimus]

Xpeople, on 12 January 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Can you show more articles?  This is getting interesting.

Im not sure what else you are looking for... pretty much any information you would need on the base is there... do you have another specific question to ask?

[Q24]

Xpeople, on 12 January 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Does anyone have evidence that Al-qaeda exist?  Please show me.

There appear to be two stages in the history of ‘Al Qaeda’: -

• As a recruitment tool of the West to combat the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
  
• As a terrorist organization defined by the West.

The myth of ‘Al Qaeda’ as a coherent terrorist group was set in place during the 2001 trial related to the U.S. embassy bombings.  To charge Osama bin Laden in his absence, the prosecution needed to show that he was the head of an organization which carried out the attacks (i.e. that he was responsible for their actions).  And so that is the picture the prosecution witness painted.  That witness, Jamal al-Fadl, was a former member of ‘Al Qaeda’, recruited in 1988 through the U.S. Brooklyn branch during the first phase above.

The ‘Al Qaeda’ theme has been driven by the West from the beginning.

It is as bin Laden said when asked, “How attached is Al-Qa'ida to the person of Usama Bin Ladin?”  His response:  “The question is not as portrayed in the West that there is an organization known by such and such a name.  This name is very old.  It emerged without our intention.”

As for me, I think the later incarnation was created to support the ‘War on Terror’; that ‘Al Qaeda’ were intended as the new enemy to replace the Soviet threat.  There were a group in Washington who stated their unease at how the U.S. were drifting since driving force of the Cold War had ceased.

[and then]

Al Queda may be "only" a movement or ideology comprised of a loose knit series of cells but it accomplished a tremendous amount of damage physically, psychologically and financially with only 19 guys with knives.  Personally, the name of the person who kills me with a bomb or knife really doesn't matter to me.  i'd just like to have a chance to see him coming so I can try to defend myself

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

and then, on 12 January 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

Al Queda may be "only" a movement or ideology comprised of a loose knit series of cells but it accomplished a tremendous amount of damage physically, psychologically and financially with only 19 guys with knives.  Personally, the name of the person who kills me with a bomb or knife really doesn't matter to me.  i'd just like to have a chance to see him coming so I can try to defend myself

al-qaeda did none of those things. Those 19 guys you spoke of were not al-qaeda AFAIK anyways.

[Q24]

Aus Der Box Skeptisch, on 12 January 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

al-qaeda did none of those things. Those 19 guys you spoke of were not al-qaeda AFAIK anyways.

The lead group (those said to be the pilots) were all Westernised having spent half of their lives in Europe (another, Hani Hanjour, in the U.S.), and fifteen of the nineteen only first travelled to Afghanistan or met bin Laden a year or two prior 9/11.  The men did not have the profile of lifelong ‘Al Qaeda’ fanatics that might be expected.  It is a question that puzzled the 9/11 Commission also, with one staff member admitting he couldn’t understand why the nineteen did what they did - in particular, Ziad Jarrah, who had a girlfriend and wedding to attend on September 22nd.  And why did some of the hijackers purchase return flight tickets?

Anyhow…

It is even known that some ‘Al Qaeda’ agents worked for the West, including bin Laden’s first trainer, Ali Mohammed.

[and then]

Aus Der Box Skeptisch, on 12 January 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

al-qaeda did none of those things. Those 19 guys you spoke of were not al-qaeda AFAIK anyways.

Pardon?  "AFAIK"?  Not sure what that is.  And if they weren't al queda then what was their connection?

[and then]

Q24, on 12 January 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

The lead group (those said to be the pilots) were all Westernised having spent half of their lives in Europe (another, Hani Hanjour, in the U.S.), and fifteen of the nineteen only first travelled to Afghanistan or met bin Laden a year or two prior 9/11.  The men did not have the profile of lifelong ‘Al Qaeda’ fanatics that might be expected.  It is a question that puzzled the 9/11 Commission also, with one staff member admitting he couldn’t understand why the nineteen did what they did - in particular, Ziad Jarrah, who had a girlfriend and wedding to attend on September 22nd.  And why did some of the hijackers purchase return flight tickets?

Anyhow…

It is even known that some ‘Al Qaeda’ agents worked for the West, including bin Laden’s first trainer, Ali Mohammed.

So there is some minimum time in the organisation before one becomes "vested"?  No pun intended.  Could they all not have been short timers - weeks even in al queda before their mission?  And I remember shortly after the attacks hearing that only the pilots knew it was a suicide mission - BinLaden even laughed about that.