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Dimension of Spirit World


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#31    Sakari

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:22 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 25 March 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'm sorry you are mistaken. There are demons, and these entities are most certainly evil.



Ok, you said it ....." There are Demons, and these entities are most certainly evil "


Before you get upset with me for being as you say a " skeptic ", let me try it this way.


I would love nothing more than for anyone with these types of claims to change my view.I would like to see things like this being real, I trully would.I would not be let down, or mad, I would be happy, happy to know things like this just might exist.

In other words, I want to believe.......So, no more of the " you have to believe excuse ".

With that said, I am still waiting for even a small piece of evidence to sway me back to that direction, and I can not find any.The more I look, the more I am convinced it is impossible.

So, when people state these things are real, I ask for anything they have to show me, that will help convince me, and others as well.

It takes evidence, not faith.

So.......I am waiting.

Edited by Sakari, 25 March 2012 - 06:23 PM.

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#32    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:06 PM

View PostSakari, on 25 March 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Ok, you said it ....." There are Demons, and these entities are most certainly evil "


Before you get upset with me for being as you say a " skeptic ", let me try it this way.


I would love nothing more than for anyone with these types of claims to change my view.I would like to see things like this being real, I trully would.I would not be let down, or mad, I would be happy, happy to know things like this just might exist.

In other words, I want to believe.......So, no more of the " you have to believe excuse ".

With that said, I am still waiting for even a small piece of evidence to sway me back to that direction, and I can not find any.The more I look, the more I am convinced it is impossible.

So, when people state these things are real, I ask for anything they have to show me, that will help convince me, and others as well.

It takes evidence, not faith.

So.......I am waiting.

I've seen your "famous" thread on the subject. Apparently, these entities are not puppets and do not perform on demand.

See this post for a beginning of my thoughts on the subject ... http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=4243897

It's possible you need to be honest and ask yourself "do I truly understand the nature of evidence". The more I look the more convinced I have become.


#33    Sakari

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 25 March 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I've seen your "famous" thread on the subject. Apparently, these entities are not puppets and do not perform on demand.

See this post for a beginning of my thoughts on the subject ... http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=4243897

It's possible you need to be honest and ask yourself "do I truly understand the nature of evidence". The more I look the more convinced I have become.



I am not talking about another thread....I did not know it was famous :)

You may or may not have seen, I was a " believer " in many things considered " Paranormal ", and also " religion "......

Thing is, the more I started researching, and educating myself, the more I realised it is all based on faith.

I need more than faith to " believe " in something.....Not sure if it because I am getting older ( and wiser, yes it is true ), or that I was just being ignorant as to how I was " educating " myself.

Probably a bit of both.Using just TV and paranormal sites, or just the church to learn about UFO's, Bigfoot, and Demons is not the way to go....One needs to look at other, real, avenues also.....Medical, Psychological, etc.

Sorry, I do not buy into things anymore because someone said so on a forum, or on TV, or because they read the Bible and became clergy........I would, however, buy into any of those giving me facts that can be backed up with evidence.

As said, it is facts and evidence I need, not just faith and claims........I have found more facts to the contrary of what claims and faith have tried to claim.

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#34    Beany

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:59 AM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 25 March 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'm sorry you are mistaken. There are demons, and these entities are most certainly evil.
My truth is there are no demons, no darkside, out there. There's evil here, committed by mankind, and I refuse to minimize responsibility for horrendous acts by attributing them to demons or a dark side. I don't believe I'm mistaken in my perceptions of reality, nor do I believe you are. The bible says it well: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. My "thou" might be different from the Christian "thou", the intent of this verse resonates with me.


#35    Beany

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:00 AM

It may be that we all find what we are looking for.


#36    GoSC

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:20 AM

Sakari,

If demons can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to exist there would be no skeptics in the world right?

But there are people that have had spiritual experiences that arent benevolent in nature i.e. demonic. In fact, I doubt many would come on a public forum and desire to speak about it either.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#37    Sakari

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:32 AM

View Postdside, on 26 March 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Sakari,

If demons can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to exist there would be no skeptics in the world right?

But there are people that have had spiritual experiences that arent benevolent in nature i.e. demonic. In fact, I doubt many would come on a public forum and desire to speak about it either.


There would be no one skeptical about Demons......There would still be skeptics.


As I said, spiritual experiences / belief / faith those are just claims, and not a real physical thing........And even those can not be shown to be fact.

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#38    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:02 AM

View PostBeany, on 26 March 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

My truth is there are no demons, no darkside, out there. There's evil here, committed by mankind, and I refuse to minimize responsibility for horrendous acts by attributing them to demons or a dark side. I don't believe I'm mistaken in my perceptions of reality, nor do I believe you are. The bible says it well: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. My "thou" might be different from the Christian "thou", the intent of this verse resonates with me.

That verse does nothing to support your claim that evil does not exist. It most certainly does. The Bible clearly supports the existence of evil spirits such as demons. There exists both evil people and spirits. It is not a question of one or the other.


#39    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:04 AM

View PostBeany, on 26 March 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

It may be that we all find what we are looking for.

Not if they are mutually exclusive. If you say they don't exist and I say they do one of us is right and one wrong.


#40    OrdinaryClay

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:06 AM

View PostSakari, on 26 March 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

As I said, spiritual experiences / belief / faith those are just claims, and not a real physical thing........And even those can not be shown to be fact.

No offense Sakari, but I don't think you understand what constitutes evidence. I think you are under the mistaken notion that only empirical evidence is true evidence. This is not the case.


#41    Sakari

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:40 AM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 26 March 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

That verse does nothing to support your claim that evil does not exist. It most certainly does. The Bible clearly supports the existence of evil spirits such as demons. There exists both evil people and spirits. It is not a question of one or the other.


The Cat in the Hat clearly supports a walking, living, talking cat, and two twins that can appear out of no where.......




View PostOrdinaryClay, on 26 March 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

Not if they are mutually exclusive. If you say they don't exist and I say they do one of us is right and one wrong.



This is true......It is up to the one making the claim to show proof though......Not for the person stating it is wrong to show it is not.



View PostOrdinaryClay, on 26 March 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

No offense Sakari, but I don't think you understand what constitutes evidence. I think you are under the mistaken notion that only empirical evidence is true evidence. This is not the case.



I think I know what it would take to get me to say these things exist.......

Just because you or anyone else can not come up with anything to show this, is not my fault.

I said what it would take for me, and trust me, I understand exactly what it is.....

No offense at all, but it is not out there.




P.S. I think we can both stop saying " no offense ", I think both of us get that this is just a discussion. ;)

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#42    Beany

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:54 PM

If you insist on being right, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise. And I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, just here to share my experiences & perspectives.


#43    White Crane Feather

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:11 AM

View PostOrdinaryClay, on 25 March 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'm sorry you are mistaken. There are demons, and these entities are most certainly evil.
How do you know this?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#44    _Only

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:31 AM

View Postmissymoo999, on 16 March 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:


I've been to places in dreams,that I have never seen before,and years later,I physically,see the places from my dreams.

That has happened to me once! I had a dream that I drove a few minutes away from my friend's house (in California, where I live) to a man's house, and he gave us a tour. Then months later, I went with my friend to Utah (2 states away from where I live) to come to this house, and he gave us that tour. What makes it extremely interesting to me, though, is that even though it was the same exact house from my dream, there were some very obvious differences. Like a bathroom window not being installed yet, but just sitting against wall in dream, and being perfectly installed in real life. And my friend's room having all of his stereo equipment in the dream, but in real life he left all of that at his house back in California.

Sorry, I'm getting off the topic... :lol:

Edited by _Only, 30 March 2012 - 03:32 AM.

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#45    _Only

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:41 AM

View PostBeany, on 26 March 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

If you insist on being right, there is little I can do to convince you otherwise. And I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, just here to share my experiences & perspectives.

I can appreciate them. I admire your sharing of what you believe, without trying to put a right and wrong aspect to belief, as others grip to. Some people just get that shift.

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