415 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

So I have been trying to discuss this and can't seem to find anyone willing. it seems that materialists are unwilling to accept the consequences of their world view.

In a purely mechanical university your life is simply a chance melding of circumstances. This chance is a tiny probability. There are only so many ways you can arrange matter. It's large but finite. there is a chance at any given moment that vacume energy will produce another big bang after so many this universe will repeat itself. Lenord Susskind ( a celebrated physicists ) puts it at 10^500 years from now or light years away.

The consequences of materialism are more fantastic than other world views. Finite arrangments in infinite universes creates the certainty of you repeating this exact life for all of eternity. Of course this makes free will an illusion, but so what, it's mechanical your choices are not your own anyway. That's ok with me I like my life very much. I have three wonderful boys, a successful business working with people, and a beautiful philapina wife, I have been a professional athlete, and Id to think im decently intelligent. I'm fine living this for eternity.... My heven is already here. But I feel very sorry for those who live miserable lives over and over again.

So atheists & Materialists. Are you ready to accept that your life will play itself over and over again like a broken record? In a universe based on chance... Even small ones those chances are bound to repeat themselves. If so then why all this talk of this is your only life when in fact critical thinking shows that you live this life for an eternity and every moment is a constant.

Edited by Seeker79, 14 January 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[StarMountainKid]

If there are an infinite number of universes:

If I have an identical other self in some other universe doing exactly as I do, who is choosing what I'm doing? Me or him?

On the other hand, with an infinite number of universes, he and I are doing the same thing because there are an infinite number of universes, so it is just because there are an infinite number of probabilities that this is so. We just happen to be doing the same things by chance.

Of course, there were an infinite number of me's in the infinite past, and there will always be an infinite number of me's in the infinite future.

This is ok, but how do I know which me is me? When 'I' die, will I become an other 'me'? After all, our consciousnesses must be exactly identical.

[Seeker79]

StarMountainKid, on 14 January 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

If there are an infinite number of universes:

If I have an identical other self in some other universe doing exactly as I do, who is choosing what I'm doing? Me or him?

On the other hand, with an infinite number of universes, he and I are doing the same thing because there are an infinite number of universes, so it is just because there are an infinite number of probabilities that this is so. We just happen to be doing the same things by chance.

Of course, there were an infinite number of me's in the infinite past, and there will always be an infinite number of me's in the infinite future.

This is ok, but how do I know which me is me? When 'I' die, will I become an other 'me'? After all, our consciousnesses must be exactly identical.

Right!!!! The you in ten minutes is also doing whet you are doing right now. So evey moment of your existence is being played every moment of existence for eternity.

In a mechanical universe there is not really a you. "you"nare just information. These other constructs have identical backgrounds thoughts etc. So it is you. If we are calling you the sum of your experiences.

You see a  mechanical existence is much more fantastic than at first glance. If there is a chance for a big bang to ocure ( obviously there was), then why not another.... And another. Even if it's one universe with a cyclical nature ( big crunch). It seems like it will probably happen again. No reason for it not to.

The popular theory is that the universe originated from a rare quantum fluctuation. So. It will happen again if it happened once.

Edited by Seeker79, 14 January 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[Imaginarynumber1]

If that were the case, I don't see a problem with it.
Besides, we don't know that there are finite arraignments foe the laws of physics. The only reason that our laws seem "made" for us is because any others would preclude us being here to observe and remake upon them.

[gnostic-deity]

im intrigued. but i dont think id want to do this all over and over and over.

[StarMountainKid]

As a materialist I don't find all this to be shocking or fantastic. If there is some kind of Creator of all this that is external to space and time, this Creator must have created a multi-verse on purpose. There is evidence of this in the nature of our reality.

The very nature of physical reality demands many universes. It seems to me this is a built-in property of quantum mechanics and of string/M theory. The structure of reality is configured in such a way that many universes must occur.

I read somewhere this morning another reason why our universe or the multi-verse could have begun out of nothing. In nothing there are no laws, and therefore there is no law prohibiting a universe from coming into existence.

Perhaps long ago and far away there was nothing. Perhaps this multi-verse did have a beginning and is not infinitely old. If it is not infinitely old, it cannot be infinite in its future at the present moment, or at any future moment.

I'm not sure if this is off-topic or not, but a Creator or a Nothing requires a multi-verse to be finite. In this case perhaps there are not as many 'me's' as I thought, but there are new 'me's' coming into existence all the time. Right now thee are old me's and baby me's, as well as dead me's, and me's who haven't been born yet.

In any case, that Creator or that Nothing is very clever to have begun all this with me in it. Thanks.

[Seeker79]

Imaginarynumber1, on 14 January 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

If that were the case, I don't see a problem with it.
Besides, we don't know that there are finite arraignments foe the laws of physics. The only reason that our laws seem "made" for us is because any others would preclude us being here to observe and remake upon them.

Even in a an infinite arrangment of laws. The current laws repeat themselves occasionally... Then it's infinite so this universe must repeat aswell. You have a choice  In a mechanical universe based on probabilities. There is this one universe that repeats itself or an infinite number of them in which this one evenchually repeats.  It's good that you don't have a problem with it.. It may very well be the reality of existence. Id hate to be a Jew in a nazi concentration camp though.

gnostic-deity, on 14 January 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

im intrigued. but i dont think id want to do this all over and over and over.

Don't worry. If it's the truth, then you you won't know the difference.

[Seeker79]

StarMountainKid, on 14 January 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

As a materialist I don't find all this to be shocking or fantastic. If there is some kind of Creator of all this that is external to space and time, this Creator must have created a multi-verse on purpose. There is evidence of this in the nature of our reality.

The very nature of physical reality demands many universes. It seems to me this is a built-in property of quantum mechanics and of string/M theory. The structure of reality is configured in such a way that many universes must occur.

I read somewhere this morning another reason why our universe or the multi-verse could have begun out of nothing. In nothing there are no laws, and therefore there is no law prohibiting a universe from coming into existence.

Perhaps long ago and far away there was nothing. Perhaps this multi-verse did have a beginning and is not infinitely old. If it is not infinitely old, it cannot be infinite in its future at the present moment, or at any future moment.

I'm not sure if this is off-topic or not, but a Creator or a Nothing requires a multi-verse to be finite. In this case perhaps there are not as many 'me's' as I thought, but there are new 'me's' coming into existence all the time. Right now thee are old me's and baby me's, as well as dead me's, and me's who haven't been born yet.

In any case, that Creator or that Nothing is very clever to have begun all this with me in it. Thanks.

Well... I'm not a creationist. I have to take logic into account. I think all this inevitable infinity leads to a guiding force. After all... In all this eternity a being must have evolved to guide the creation of life giving universes. If it is possible for a god or spirit world dimention ( possibly in the mind of a trillion year old being) then in entity that is possibility must be a certainty. .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 X infinity. Means it will evenchually will happen. Then it also means it happened infinitely  long ago.

The logic for an infinitely old and aware being is.., to me a simple matter of math. Infinate regression is illogical based on observed science. Nothing cannot change if there was nothing to change nothing therefore the universe should not exist if it's possible for nothing to exist. Which nothing in logic, spirituality, or science sugests that nothing is a possability.

What are we left with logically?

[Englishgent]

If these multi-verses exist it wouldnt bother me in the slightest that I might have to live my life many times over. Because I am not aware of these other universes, therefore I am unaware of my previous lives in these universes and will also be unaware of any future lives I might have. It would be as if it was my first life each time.
As for the need for a creator or guiding force....why? Logic or mathematics does not suggest there must be a guiding force or creator. In fact, logic to me suggests there is no guiding force other than nature itself.

[Seeker79]

Englishgent, on 15 January 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

If these multi-verses exist it wouldnt bother me in the slightest that I might have to live my life many times over. Because I am not aware of these other universes, therefore I am unaware of my previous lives in these universes and will also be unaware of any future lives I might have. It would be as if it was my first life each time.
As for the need for a creator or guiding force....why? Logic or mathematics does not suggest there must be a guiding force or creator. In fact, logic to me suggests there is no guiding force other than nature itself.

Very good. I appreciate the acceptance of the possibility ( rare few can actually do that)..... Now... Why does your logic sugest so. Detail please. I'm not trying to convince any body of any thing. I just want to see your end logic, for me not you...., and also why cannot nature lead to a being that we might consider grand or supreme.

Edited by Seeker79, 15 January 2012 - 02:41 AM.

[Englishgent]

Seeker79, on 15 January 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

Very good. I appreciate the acceptance of the possibility ( rare few can actually do that)..... Now... Why does your logic sugest so. Detail please. I'm not trying to convince any body of any thing. I just want to see your end logic, for me not you...., and also why cannot nature lead to a being that we might consider grand or supreme.

I just think that if there was nothing prior to the big bang, or even  multiple big bangs if a multi-verse exists, then I cannot conceive of there being any guiding force. Nothing means nothing. No guiding force, no creator, it just happened.....from nothing. I really dont understand how something can be created from nothing because I dont have the brain of Stephen Hawking but I have heard his lectures and like what he says. It makes sense to me. Well, the bits I think I understand do !
If there is what one would call a grand or supreme being, guiding force, creator, then it is nature/the universe as a whole.
Why does there have to be a single creator or guiding force?
Unless of course, we are all the creation of some mad scientist in a laboratory and our universe is actually only the size of a soda pop bubble with all the other bubbles being the multi-verse

[Seeker79]

Englishgent, on 15 January 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

If these multi-verses exist it wouldnt bother me in the slightest that I might have to live my life many times over. Because I am not aware of these other universes, therefore I am unaware of my previous lives in these universes and will also be unaware of any future lives I might have. It would be as if it was my first life each time.
As for the need for a creator or guiding force....why? Logic or mathematics does not suggest there must be a guiding force or creator. In fact, logic to me suggests there is no guiding force other than nature itself.

Sorry. The why is the end result of evolution. Why should not evolution and infinity have created a close to supreme being an infinity ago. A tangled hierarchy of evolution and sentience guiding new sentience in accordance with nature? Not above it... But utilizing it as humanity does today.

Edited by Seeker79, 15 January 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[Seeker79]

Englishgent, on 15 January 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

I just think that if there was nothing prior to the big bang, or even  multiple big bangs if a multi-verse exists, then I cannot conceive of there being any guiding force. Nothing means nothing. No guiding force, no creator, it just happened.....from nothing. I really dont understand how something can be created from nothing because I dont have the brain of Stephen Hawking but I have heard his lectures and like what he says. It makes sense to me. Well, the bits I think I understand do !
If there is what one would call a grand or supreme being, guiding force, creator, then it is nature/the universe as a whole.
Why does there have to be a single creator or guiding force?
Unless of course, we are all the creation of some mad scientist in a laboratory and our universe is actually only the size of a soda pop bubble with all the other bubbles being the multi-verse

I like hawking very much. My book case is full of books about him and by him... However his nohing is actualy the zero point feild in which virtual Particles constantly emerge and annihilate each other. The popular theory is that the based on the uncertainty principle the zero point field produced the singularity that exoded into the big bang. The zero point field is not nothing.they just say nothing on televising because people cannot understand virtual particles. ( I'm not sure I totally do) the fact the our brightest minds consider a real object something that is virtual gives me great pause on our real understanding.

Edited by Seeker79, 15 January 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[Seeker79]

Still some claim that the vacume emerged from the big bang... Others ( very bright and celebrated others) say that that is nonsense... And there is no evidence of that.

Edited by Seeker79, 15 January 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[Englishgent]

Seeker79, on 15 January 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Sorry. The why is the end result of evolution. Why should not evolution and infinity have created a close to supreme being an infinity ago. A tangled hierarchy of evolution and sentience guiding new sentience in accordance with nature? Not above it... But utilizing it as humanity does today.

But does that not come close to what I was saying? That in my opinion the supreme being would be the universe as a whole?