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Islam an offshoot of Christianity?


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#31    and then

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:46 PM

So you equate both religions as hateful.  Where in modern society where Christianity or Judaism have predominance  do you see examples of the above mentioned commandments being executed?  And the acid test...which society would you prefer for you or your daughters?  
As for sources I will have to research for specific Surahs and verses and I will provide them.

The last question from that post still requires an answer since it speaks to the point the thread is based on:  Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?

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#32    and then

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:55 PM

For Her Nibs  Most of the Qur'anic and Hadith examples I originally took from a book by Joel Rosenberg and I can't find my copy just now so I Googled and found a better source of references.  If you have a Qur'an or a copy of the Hadiths you can verify them.


http://www.thereligi...-conversion.htm

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#33    HerNibs

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:56 PM

View Postand then, on 17 February 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

So you equate both religions as hateful.  Where in modern society where Christianity or Judaism have predominance  do you see examples of the above mentioned commandments being executed?  And the acid test...which society would you prefer for you or your daughters?  
As for sources I will have to research for specific Surahs and verses and I will provide them.

The last question from that post still requires an answer since it speaks to the point the thread is based on:  Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?


Actually, I don't equate them as hateful.  Religion on it's own is just dogma.  Human beings use the religion for evil.  I think that there are extremists in all religions that use their dogma to abuse, suppress and generally cause havoc that make their religion look bad.

I KNOW that most moderates of all religions are just regular folk.  

All three religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) are from the same sources and mix and match many of the same players.  

They all are Abrahamic and all worship a single deity.  

Here is a nice comparison chart.

Nibs

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#34    HerNibs

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:10 PM

View Postand then, on 17 February 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

For Her Nibs  Most of the Qur'anic and Hadith examples I originally took from a book by Joel Rosenberg and I can't find my copy just now so I Googled and found a better source of references.  If you have a Qur'an or a copy of the Hadiths you can verify them.


http://www.thereligi...-conversion.htm


My point is that ALL THREE religious texts promote violence and the killing of those that are not of the "correct" faith.

They (Christian, Judaism, Islam) can be interpreted many ways and are.

Nibs

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#35    Gromdor

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:41 AM

View Postand then, on 17 February 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

So you equate both religions as hateful.  Where in modern society where Christianity or Judaism have predominance  do you see examples of the above mentioned commandments being executed?  And the acid test...which society would you prefer for you or your daughters?  
As for sources I will have to research for specific Surahs and verses and I will provide them.

The last question from that post still requires an answer since it speaks to the point the thread is based on:  Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?


By that logic of that last post, the God of Islam and the God of the Jews are the same and the God of Christians is someone else. Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, you know.


#36    and then

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 02:42 AM

View PostGromdor, on 18 February 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

By that logic of that last post, the God of Islam and the God of the Jews are the same and the God of Christians is someone else. Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, you know.
You make a valid point.  But I would say not that Jews and Muslims worship the same Deity but that Christians do not worship the god of Islam.  Jew and Christian alike believe in free will and loving others unconditionally.  The fact that Jews do not recognize Christ as messiah does not mean they worship the hateful god of Islam.  
Do you believe that the tenets of faith in Islam/Judaism/Christianity point to them all having the same God?

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“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#37    Gromdor

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 04:10 PM

View Postand then, on 18 February 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

You make a valid point.  But I would say not that Jews and Muslims worship the same Deity but that Christians do not worship the god of Islam.  Jew and Christian alike believe in free will and loving others unconditionally.  The fact that Jews do not recognize Christ as messiah does not mean they worship the hateful god of Islam.  
Do you believe that the tenets of faith in Islam/Judaism/Christianity point to them all having the same God?

I believe that the tenents of faith of the followers in Islam/Judaism/Christianity are the only difference. God is either universal and man-kind makes religious tenents in an attempt to make Him exclusive to their beliefs or each religion creates their own God based off their tenents.


#38    odas

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:11 PM

View Postand then, on 18 February 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

You make a valid point.  But I would say not that Jews and Muslims worship the same Deity but that Christians do not worship the god of Islam.  Jew and Christian alike believe in free will and loving others unconditionally.  The fact that Jews do not recognize Christ as messiah does not mean they worship the hateful god of Islam.  
Do you believe that the tenets of faith in Islam/Judaism/Christianity point to them all having the same God?
Please tell me the difference between love and hate in the ot an q. Please tell me the difference between spreading christianity and islam, to be more specific, the actions of the followers.
There is as much as forgiving in the quran as it is in the nt and as much as hate as in the ot.
Please, look at the position and right and obligations of woman in the bible in regards to inharitance, divorce and her place in society and compare that to the quran. Dont compare it to todays society standards but to the times when the books were written. However you are free to compare the womans right to divorse a man and the mans obligation thereafter to his ex even to todays standards in catholizism and modern law.
Islam, christianity and judaism had their fair share in blood and love. It is not correct to hide ones wrongdoings but elevate ohers.


#39    and then

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:46 AM

View Postodas, on 19 February 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Please tell me the difference between love and hate in the ot an q. Please tell me the difference between spreading christianity and islam, to be more specific, the actions of the followers.
There is as much as forgiving in the quran as it is in the nt and as much as hate as in the ot.
Please, look at the position and right and obligations of woman in the bible in regards to inharitance, divorce and her place in society and compare that to the quran. Dont compare it to todays society standards but to the times when the books were written. However you are free to compare the womans right to divorse a man and the mans obligation thereafter to his ex even to todays standards in catholizism and modern law.
Islam, christianity and judaism had their fair share in blood and love. It is not correct to hide ones wrongdoings but elevate ohers.
The true difference is that the teachings of Christ in NO way call for anyone to be forced to believe.  Just the opposite.  Willing faith is the key and an absolute necessity.  Religions have subjugated and murdered throughout history but today you'll never see a Christian cutting off the head of an enemy for not being a Christian.  The teachings of Islam in many areas are noble and similar to Christianity and Judaism.  They take much of their traditions from both.  But there can be no doubt about their insistence on conversion at the point of a gun.
spelling edit

Edited by and then, 20 February 2012 - 01:47 AM.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#40    odas

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:06 PM

View Postand then, on 20 February 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

The true difference is that the teachings of Christ in NO way call for anyone to be forced to believe.  Just the opposite.  Willing faith is the key and an absolute necessity.  Religions have subjugated and murdered throughout history but today you'll never see a Christian cutting off the head of an enemy for not being a Christian. The teachings of Islam in many areas are noble and similar to Christianity and Judaism.  They take much of their traditions from both.  But there can be no doubt about their insistence on conversion at the point of a gun.
spelling edit

I would strongly disagree with your statement marked in bold, but this would be another topic.
The forcefull conversion to Islam is strongly forbidden in Islam as stated in the Quran. “ There is no compulsion in religion…” (Qur’an, 2:256).
“Had your Lord wanted, all the people on earth would have believed. So will you force people to believe?” (Qur’an, 10:99)
“So warn them: your only task is to warn, you’re not supposed to force them.” (Qur’an, 88:21-22)

Of course there are verses that imply that it is alowed to convert forcefull someone to Islam but those verses are usualy misinterpreted since it does not stand alone as a verse but conects to another earlier ( I admit the Quran is not easy to read sometimes if you do not pay attention).

“…seize them and kill them wherever you find them…” (Qur’an, 4:91).
In this example, it becomes crystal clear that “them” is referring to a group of hypocrites who are trying to harm and kill the Muslims. It would have been sufficient in this case to simply quote more of the verse: “So if they neither withdraw, nor offer you peace, nor restrain themselves from fighting you, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them: We give you clear authority against these type of people.” (Qur’an, 4:91)

However, as for the argument we have also this:
In Deuteronomy 7:1-3: “When the Lord your God brings you into the land… and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them…”

In Numbers 31:17-18: “Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

Jesus is reported to have said in Luke 19:27: “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”.........and so on.

My friend, Christianity is not what it was at it's begining, nor is Islam. The OT, the NT and the Q are one. It is us, the people, who made the difference. Not only inbetween Islam, Christianity and Judaism but also among itself, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Sunnies, Shias, Suffies.............. In some cases Christian sects are so appart from each others beliefs it makes Christianity and Islam look like single egg twins.


#41    odas

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

We all hear how some muslims treat captive soldiers, women, with a disgrase, unjust, inhuman way..... Now let's see what the Quran says about it.

Equality of Human Beings:
The Almighty God
has laid down in the Holy Quran: "O mankind, we have created you
from a male and female." In other words all human beings are brothers
to one another. They all are the descendants from one father and one
mother. "And we set you up as nations and tribes so that you may be
able to recognize each other" (49:13).

The Right to Life:
The first and the foremost basic right is the right to live and
respect human life. The Holy Quran lays down:
The first and the foremost basic right is the right to live and
respect human life. The Holy Quran lays down:

  Whosoever kills a human being without (any reason like) man
  slaughter, or corruption on earth, it is as though he had killed
  all mankind ... (5:32)

The Right to Justice:
The Holy Quran has laid down: "Do not let
your hatred of a people incite you to aggression" (5:2). "And do not
let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing
justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8).

Captives of war:
They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day Whose evil flies far and wide.  And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive -- (Saying), 'We feed you For the sake of Allah alone:  No reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.'  (The Noble Quran, 76:7-9)"



The list is big of what muslims are supposed to do and what some of them are acctualy doing. It is wrong to equate the actions of a few with the true message, being it muslims, christians, jews or any other.

As for the name Allah and not God, and not being the same, a little is known about this but God was the first who said: Call me what you want but don't call me late for lunch.  :innocent:


#42    RavenHawk

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 05:14 PM

I wouldn’t call Islam an offshoot of Christianity in the sense that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism or Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.  It is more of an alternate due to confusion.  If you look at what was going on at the time and 3 centuries before, the nature of Christ was still somewhat not yet established.  The debate raged on for a long time if Jesus was GOD or subordinate to him.  I think this conflict got to Mohammed and he was seeking to return to something simpler.  The concepts of redemption and salvation were something new.  Using the moon god Allah isn’t really pertinent.  The pagan Allah is probably just the pagan representation of GOD anyway.  Or at least Mohammed thought so.  Borrowing from other religions is common place.  The influence originated from the same place anyway.

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#43    the-Unexpected-Soul

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 20 February 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I wouldn’t call Islam an offshoot of Christianity in the sense that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism or Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism.  It is more of an alternate due to confusion.  If you look at what was going on at the time and 3 centuries before, the nature of Christ was still somewhat not yet established.  The debate raged on for a long time if Jesus was GOD or subordinate to him.  I think this conflict got to Mohammed and he was seeking to return to something simpler.  The concepts of redemption and salvation were something new.  Using the moon god Allah isn’t really pertinent.  The pagan Allah is probably just the pagan representation of GOD anyway.  Or at least Mohammed thought so.  Borrowing from other religions is common place.  The influence originated from the same place anyway.


Allah is not a pagan god nor the moon god , for god sake, Please Study Islamic Perspective more, Allah in the Islamic, is the God which is completly
separated from all other creations that he created , so there is god and there is creation which only existed and continue to exist because of god

so islamic idea of what is God have nothing to do with paganism or the moon , we only use the moon as a symbol

thank you

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#44    The Silver Thong

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:44 PM

View Postthe-Unexpected-Soul, on 20 February 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Allah is not a pagan god nor the moon god , for god sake, Please Study Islamic Perspective more, Allah in the Islamic, is the God which is completly
separated from all other creations that he created , so there is god and there is creation which only existed and continue to exist because of god

so islamic idea of what is God have nothing to do with paganism or the moon , we only use the moon as a symbol

thank you

So does that make all gods as equals. God means creation however it took man to create a god.  In saying that all gods are not equal and only allowed superior status because man allows it.  God is allowed to exist only due to man. God is but a tool that some wish to use for there own means. If you wish to follow a god you are following nothing more than a mans take on such.

If there was a god jesus and allah would be a sin to follow as no all knowing god would make such a farce of itselfe.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#45    the-Unexpected-Soul

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 20 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

So does that make all gods as equals.

well we believe that there is only one god,
but if you want to imagine that there is like two or three gods
and that they are not equals then the strongest one among them will be the real one god




View PostThe Silver Thong, on 20 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

God means creation however it took man to create a god.

yeah man can create a lot of ideas with his brain, a lot of those ideas are true and a lot of them are false
we need to apply logical means and evidence to verify if the idea is true or false , if man brain created the idea
of god it still might be true




View PostThe Silver Thong, on 20 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

In saying that all gods are not equal and only allowed superior status because man allows it.  God is allowed to exist only due to man. God is but a tool that some wish to use for there own means. If you wish to follow a god you are following nothing more than a mans take on such.

yes man ego always try to play god, that's why it's important in Islam to kill your ego
and man will always use the idea of god to his benefit by controlling people in the name of god, but that doesn't proof if god realy exist or not    




View PostThe Silver Thong, on 20 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

If there was a god jesus and allah would be a sin to follow as no all knowing god would make such a farce of itselfe.

i didn't understand this part

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