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Islam an offshoot of Christianity?


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#76    odas

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:01 AM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 23 February 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

You know what i'm alluding to?

The most telling word in your post is "captive" this is the first none Islamic mention of Mohammed....

The earliest documented knowledge of Muhammad stems from Byzantine sources. They indicate that both Jews and Christians saw Muhammad as a "false prophet". In the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati of 634, Muhammad is portrayed as being "deceiving for do prophets come with sword and chariot? you will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed."

Depends on what experience one had with the newcomers:
Canadian Holocaust.
By 1570 the Inquisition had established independent tribunals in Peru and the city of Mexico for the purpose of "freeing the land, which has become contaminated by Jews and heretics." Natives who did not convert to Christianity were burned like any other heretic. The Inquisition spread as far as Goa, India, where in the late 16th and early 17th centuries it took no less than 3,800 lives.

Even without the formal Inquisition present, missionary behavior clearly illustrated the belief in the supremacy of a single image of God, not in the supremacy of one all-encompassing divinity. If the image of God venerated in a foreign land was not Christian, it was simply not divine. Portuguese missionaries in the Far East destroyed pagodas, forced scholars to hide their religious manuscripts, and suppressed older customs. Mayan scribes in Central America wrote:
Before the coming of the Spaniards, there was no robbery or violence. The Spanish invasion was the beginning of tribute, the beginning of church dues, the beginning of strife.
In 1614 the Shogun of Japan, Iyeyazu, accused the missionaries of "wanting to change the government of the country and make themselves masters of the soil."
-- The Dark Side of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe


"The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."
-- Bertrand Russell

As usual, it is alway a give a little, take a little. :innocent:


#77    hetrodoxly

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:04 PM

View Postodas, on 24 February 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

Depends on what experience one had with the newcomers:
Canadian Holocaust.
By 1570 the Inquisition had established independent tribunals in Peru and the city of Mexico for the purpose of "freeing the land, which has become contaminated by Jews and heretics." Natives who did not convert to Christianity were burned like any other heretic. The Inquisition spread as far as Goa, India, where in the late 16th and early 17th centuries it took no less than 3,800 lives.

Even without the formal Inquisition present, missionary behavior clearly illustrated the belief in the supremacy of a single image of God, not in the supremacy of one all-encompassing divinity. If the image of God venerated in a foreign land was not Christian, it was simply not divine. Portuguese missionaries in the Far East destroyed pagodas, forced scholars to hide their religious manuscripts, and suppressed older customs. Mayan scribes in Central America wrote:
Before the coming of the Spaniards, there was no robbery or violence. The Spanish invasion was the beginning of tribute, the beginning of church dues, the beginning of strife.
In 1614 the Shogun of Japan, Iyeyazu, accused the missionaries of "wanting to change the government of the country and make themselves masters of the soil."
-- The Dark Side of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe


"The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."
-- Bertrand Russell

As usual, it is alway a give a little, take a little. :innocent:
Your clutching at straws here Odas i'm not a Catholic or Christian of any persuasion your post is lost on me, if you want to compare atrocities committed in the name of Christianity to those committed in the name of Islam go a head i'll post you Muslim ones from last week, to get back on track a comparison of the religions founders would be more appropriate unlike Mohammed Jesus never owed named Swords or stories told about how brave in battle he and his followers were, he never killed anyone Jesus said "turn the other cheek"

Thank god i'm an athiest.

Veni, vidi, Vertigo, i came i saw i couldn't get down.
Hetrodoxly.

#78    Lion6969

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:15 PM

View Postand then, on 22 February 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Taqiya is a very useful tool.  You're allowed to deny even your faith if it will save your skin.

Taqiya is a Shiite concept, get with the program. Most of you have gleaned your knowledge about islam from the Internet and Christian missionary sites still propagating crusader myths.


#79    Lion6969

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 21 February 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

I love it.  Whenever Iím critical of something, I get lambasted.  Hereís a clue.  Just because someone is critical of something, doesnít mean they are lambasting it.  If I was going to lambast Islam, Iíd start with what Ambassador Adja said to Thomas Jefferson.  Then Iíd go into the air of denial Muslim apologists espouse.  And I guess my Christmas example was wasted on you or perhaps you are just so arrogant that you couldnít acknowledge the similaritiesÖ  Pagan roots of Christianity is ok, but like Achmed the Dead Terrorist would say, ďI kel U!Ē if anyone dares mentions the pagan roots of Islam.

Yadi Yadi Yadi Yadi, blah blah blah.....same old stuff, but different day and a different thread. Nothing new here but the same old crusader myths gleaned by google scholars when attempted to study Islam, actually that's doing you a favour, because people like you dont study Islam but research anything that could malign it via Christian missionary websites or simply bigot sites. This rubbish is constantly regurgitated and recycled then spewed on such forums as though there is any credibity in it, in reality truly intelligent people see right through the bull and realise the claims have no foundations, academic, credibility but merely crusader myths of old!


Quote

  Iíve seen the evidence for and against the moon god theory and the one thing I can say is that it is *NOT* absolutely false.  It may be inaccurate but if you understood what I was saying then Allah being a moon god isnít necessarily a bad thing.  This is just where the early Semites put him.  He has always been GOD; he just wasnít recognized as such until Mohammed.  Do you understand?

Clearly you don't understand the academic studies related to this, I guarantee you dont even know the names of the original perpertrators of this myth, who were Christian missionaries by the way (obviously had no axe to grind....lol). They lambasted the contemporary studies based off those missionaries so much that the author (I bet you don't even know the name here too), they exposed his fabrication of archeological evidence, doctoring, mistranslating and numerous errors. It has no value and allah was never worshipped as a moon god.

Now some factual history for you, before the advent of muhammed Arabia was populated by mainly pagans, atheists, some Jews and Christians and a group called hanifis, who claimed they followed Abraham and were strictly monotheist. Even the pagans with their pantheons of gods had a belief in a supreme god, the true god, the rest of their pagan idols were classed as Demi gods, this one superior god was always known as Allah. All muhammed did and said to them was to leave the false Demi gods and worship Allah the abrahamic god alone. You see you have no knowledge of Arabic, Allah as a word is only applicable to god and nothing else, ie, god can be manipulated to gods, goddess, godfather, likewise, lord, lords, or almighty, the almighty dollar etc etc. In Arabic god is illah, gods, illahi, but as soon as you that to Allah اللة, it becomes totally unique there is nothing like it in any language not just Arabic. Because Allah can't be manipulated, it's neither female nor male, it's singular, unique, nothing like it, all true qualities of the god!

Therefore it's not ok to say Allah is a pagan god or moon god, because the language shows otherwise, besides actual historical evidence does too. The moon god theory is absolutely false and utter tripe concocted deliberately and comprehensively destroyed by true academic research and factual evidence.  

Quote

Islam plagiarizing Christianity is like saying that Islam is an offshoot of Christianity.  Much of the Knowledge at the time was well known.  So it was out there available to anyone.  The real myth is having an Islamic apologist crying that it is an old Crusader myth.

Lmao!!! This is so laughable and proven otherwise on so many occasions that it's become a joke now. Firstly similarity does not mean plagiarising, you have to prove the claim. Secondly the stories which are similar, when compared, the quranic versions have no contradictions, no mistakes, and seem to correct the biblical versions or atleast that's it's claim. Why do this, if it was simply plagiarised, I mean look at the trinity, it's not even mentioned in the bible, yet the Quran mentions it and says that don't worship your god as a trinity because he is one, why such a fundamental difference when it was plagiarised from the bible. I mean seriously this just a waste of my time, no serious academics or true researchers take this tripe seriously.

Quote

As far as secularism in a Muslim nation goes is not the same as in non Muslim nations.  The faith is more tightly interwoven into everyday life than it is in Christianity.  Christians arenít under the pain of death for partnering Allah with other authority or breaking the ties of kinship, etc.  If you are Muslim, it doesnít matter if you are secular or sectarian.

I don't even know what you are trying to say here, to be honest I don't even care. I find these forums lack real honesty or true researchers, it's always self created truths or let's pretend stuff. All Muslim countries are secular in their governance, legislation and economics, besides Saudi which mixes theocracy with an autocracy, thus there is no real Islamic state or nation. Those that are Muslim and secular, majority have dictators running the show either put in there by western secular states or propped up and funded to maintain the status quo.

To understand Islam and it's teachings you have to refer to the Quran and the authentic Hadith collections, you don't judge a whole faith based on it's fallible human prone to error followers. After we are all human and prone to error, those errors cannot be ascribed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc, for most if not all religions teach peace and tolerance. However only one teaches to turn the cheek in face of tyranny all the others say fight for good against evil and tyranny and if they repent forgive them.


#80    hetrodoxly

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:31 PM

View Postodas, on 24 February 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:



I don't know if your aware that Mecca as been systematically demolished and no building older than 18c now exists, have you ever seen a photo of the Kabba without the Kiswah (cover) the building looks brand new red stone and white mortar it reminds me of a factory unit the mullahs are making sure nothing can ever be dated.

Thank god i'm an athiest.

Veni, vidi, Vertigo, i came i saw i couldn't get down.
Hetrodoxly.

#81    Lion6969

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:34 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 24 February 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

I don't know if your aware that Mecca as been systematically demolished and no building older than 18c now exists, have you ever seen a photo of the Kabba without the Kiswah (cover) the building looks brand new red stone and white mortar it reminds me of a factory unit the mullahs are making sure nothing can ever be dated.

Mecca is a city and cities are modified and rebuilt. The Kaaba has been there all the time, it too has had modifications, Walls rebuilt and even during muhammeds lifetime. That's fine it's just a direction for pray not an object of worship.

Your quote clearly illustrates your level of knowledge.


#82    hetrodoxly

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:57 PM

View PostLion6969, on 24 February 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Mecca is a city and cities are modified and rebuilt. The Kaaba has been there all the time, it too has had modifications, Walls rebuilt and even during muhammeds lifetime. That's fine it's just a direction for pray not an object of worship.

Your quote clearly illustrates your level of knowledge.


You're a Muslim, therefore find it impossible to debate without insulting, is this taught in the mosque?

Thank god i'm an athiest.

Veni, vidi, Vertigo, i came i saw i couldn't get down.
Hetrodoxly.

#83    Ahzi_Dhaka

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:07 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 24 February 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

You're a Muslim, therefore find it impossible to debate without insulting, is this taught in the mosque?
wow someone got mad


#84    Lion6969

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:09 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 24 February 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

You're a Muslim, therefore find it impossible to debate without insulting, is this taught in the mosque?

No we are told to be honest and always tell the truth no matter how harsh it maybe to the recipient, even if it's family!

As for insulting, that's funny coming from you ;)


#85    hetrodoxly

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostSatampraZeiros, on 24 February 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

wow someone got mad


i imagine you're lion 6969

Thank god i'm an athiest.

Veni, vidi, Vertigo, i came i saw i couldn't get down.
Hetrodoxly.

#86    hetrodoxly

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostLion6969, on 24 February 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

No we are told to be honest and always tell the truth no matter how harsh it maybe to the recipient, even if it's family!

As for insulting, that's funny coming from you ;)
That's not true my posts are always relevant to the thread, yours are always aimed at the poster, i don't care :yes: your a Muslim and i expect no less.

Thank god i'm an athiest.

Veni, vidi, Vertigo, i came i saw i couldn't get down.
Hetrodoxly.

#87    Ahzi_Dhaka

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:29 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 24 February 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

i imagine you're lion 6969
yes, yes I am you got me you overly paranoid bigot, theres no getting past you...


#88    hetrodoxly

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:37 PM

View PostSatampraZeiros, on 24 February 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

yes, yes I am you got me you overly paranoid bigot, theres no getting past you...

Yep, Muslim.

Thank god i'm an athiest.

Veni, vidi, Vertigo, i came i saw i couldn't get down.
Hetrodoxly.

#89    Lion6969

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:40 PM

Lmao!!!! Paranoid or what?

Hetro I don't care about your hate for Muslims, it's no bother, it will just consume you as all types of hate does.

;)


#90    Ahzi_Dhaka

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:41 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 24 February 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

Yep, Muslim.
lol if you say so jew, or xtian or whatever you are, probably a "keyboard warrior" I met one of your kind once before, pitiful fella' but hey if thats the best you can do..





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