73 replies to this topic

[Babe Ruth]

Clearly, we are not alone....

[keithisco]

"E" is "Echo" not "Extra" and "U" is "Uniform"  not "Union" in the ICAO Phonetic alphabet.This is from the reported radio exchange on page 1,  I am fairly sure that the ICAO Phonetic Alphabet was adopted prior to 1975 (please correct me if wrong).

On the other hand Mexico City is 7300 feet above sea level (if this is the airport mentioned as "Mexico Central", and assuming the pilot was flying at 2000 feet above this (and he was a  local pilot already acclimatised to living at this height) then Apoxia is extremely unlikely.

So... what to make of the event? I do not think the Pilot was hallucinating, the (apparent) recorded radio exchange with an unknown Mexico Central contains serious breaches of flying Protocols, and the reported "UFO's" are sooo small as to possibly contain a Meercat.

We are now looking at an event from some 37 years ago, and it is entirely possible (probable) that the magnetic tapes of this exchange and radar data no longer exists. This leaves us with yet another unsupportable event by todays standards... Disappointing, but finally evidence has got to be available beyond memories of events. The hard data must be presented or else it goes into the same box as the Loch Ness Monster.

[Tesla II]

Babe Ruth, on 25 February 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Clearly, we are not alone....

Agree but some people have problems with that fact... This event, the first one was clearly a sighting of an unknown craft... Since pilot probably or didn't not expect something strange to fly by. Probably he wasn't so openminded as we are, so only rational thing was an unknown object, and that is all people need... Even sceptic... this is as clear as it can be. Pilot which probably knew airplane types pretty well said unknown object radar confirms that so end of story. If you try to find a rational explanation for this, well i think you'll be in big darkness.  Still nothing special... alien craft was flying by airplane Wooow how very interesting...  i rather see a fleet of those coming here, would make my day and worlds too

[SatampraZeiros]

As much as the international UFO community wants "hard proof" of UFO's, they rarely go to Mexico to investigate, I lived in Mexico city for a while and now reside in San Luis, and "strange" things happen here all the time, kind of makes you think that the current inhabitants of Mexico are somehow cursed by all the blood spilt by their ancestors.

[keithisco]

SatampraZeiros, on 25 February 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

As much as the international UFO community wants "hard proof" of UFO's, they rarely go to Mexico to investigate, I lived in Mexico city for a while and now reside in San Luis, and "strange" things happen here all the time, kind of makes you think that the current inhabitants of Mexico are somehow cursed by all the blood spilt by their ancestors.

Not from Spain...just post some of the "strange" stuff...

[quillius]

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

No, I don't have examples of "pilot has suffered hallucinations at 15000ft @ under 1hour exposure". As I already mentioned, besides hypoxia there other "things", stress in particular:

I didnt think so, I couldnt either.

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Authors present three cases of such hallucinations. I'll bring just one So, you see how many things come into play even without oxygen deprivation. And I want to note here, that in all three cases hallucinations were experienced when subjects were alone.
Why we don't have plenty of such experiences? One reason is obvious - occurrences are very rare. Second reason somewhat obvious as well - what pilot would want to report that he saw, for example, deers on his wings (especially if it occurs just once in their lifetime)?
What are the sources of the stress in aviation you can find here.

And I want to repeat: I'm not stating pilot hallucinated, I'm just bringing one of the possibilities for his sighting.

firstly, the stress induced hallucinations are based on 'environmental stress'....the examples are young soldiersthrown into unknown 'environments', I do not see the relevance or correlation you are making here when discussing an experienced pilot making a routine flight.

at least you acknowledge the rareness (even with the correct stress inducing conditions) so this in addition to the RADAR return (ok yes maybe weather related)..but suddenly you are taking a very rare event (not that I think it is relevant anyway) and you must then multiply the odds of such an occurance by the probability of weather related RADAR return (also note not just one blip), this then gives you the odds of said situation happening.

as for what pilot would want to report.....if you are hallucinating and believe what you are seeing is real then why not report it? this pilot did just that anyhow.

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

He had plenty of time to calm down circling airport. Look, there are examples when pilots do crash in simpler situations, while others do manage land fully loaded airplane while suffering severe head injuries and making wild maneuvers (FedEx flight 705). Would other crews land safely under the same circumstances? You just can't tell.

'plenty of time', this cannot be ascertained unless you have diagnosed his condition. one other quick thing, he apparently did receive a medical straight after and was given the all clear, although I dont have the medical report....

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

You mean this doc?

If yes, then I retract my previous comment about it.

yes that one, and ok no worries.

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Awh...
(Radar Design Principles: Signal Processing and the Environment, 2nd ed, F.E.Nathanson, J.P.Reilly, and M.N.Cohen, McGraw-Hill (1999))
In "noisy environment" you always will find something that fits your "profile". For more about radars you can search info posted by badeskov.

no need to prove RADAR can have false returns...I know this????

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Are you saying you don't tie some UFOs with interdimentional 'thingies'? If you don't, my apologies.

I dont tie anything to anything....do I like the idea, yes, do I think it possible, yes....who knows....thats what I am trying to find out.

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

With the gadget, based on B.Cathie's math/harmonics, and interfaced with tin foil hat, I'm invincible.

very good and very funny....

bmk1245, on 25 February 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Name place and time...

but this is even funnier     ...

Edited by quillius, 27 February 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[bmk1245]

quillius, on 27 February 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

I didnt think so, I couldnt either.
[...]

Yeap, but that doesn't mean there are no such recorded cases, isn't it?

quillius, on 27 February 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

[...]
firstly, the stress induced hallucinations are based on 'environmental stress'....the examples are young soldiers thrown into unknown 'environments', I do not see the relevance or correlation you are making here when discussing an experienced pilot making a routine flight.
[...]

Examples I posted just to show that healthy people do hallucinate.

quillius, on 27 February 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

[...] when discussing an experienced pilot making a routine flight.
[...]

Experienced in what? Flying plane? Making mistakes/errors? Tying boots in the morning?
And routine flight... Most of the flights ending with fatal crashes started as routine flights.

quillius, on 27 February 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

[...]at least you acknowledge the rareness (even with the correct stress inducing conditions) so this in addition to the RADAR return (ok yes maybe weather related)..but suddenly you are taking a very rare event (not that I think it is relevant anyway) and you must then multiply the odds of such an occurance by the probability of weather related RADAR return (also note not just one blip), this then gives you the odds of said situation happening.[...]

Ok, I'll try to bring analogy: Two friends are on the hiking trip. One of them (Montiel) sees "face" on the distant cliff. He points it to his friend (controller): "Look, here is face!". "Where?" "Right there, between those trees. Do you see?" Friend squints, turns his head left/right: "Ah, yeah, I see now!"
Does this mean cliff resembling "face" was intentionally carved? Would the second guy see this "face" if not pointed to?

quillius, on 27 February 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

[...]
as for what pilot would want to report.....if you are hallucinating and believe what you are seeing is real then why not report it? this pilot did just that anyhow.
[...]

You probably heard that pilots are somewhat shy in reporting UFOs (ridicule, questioning their mental state, etc). Now, imagine someone says "I saw raindeers on the wings"...

[quillius]

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Yeap, but that doesn't mean there are no such recorded cases, isn't it?

no it doesnt, but unless we find a recorded case we cant really use this 'hypothetical' to support anything

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Examples I posted just to show that healthy people do hallucinate.

again the 'environmental stress' was the key factor.....If I post examples of people hallucinating on LCD would this suffice? no as it again has no direct resemblance of event we are discussing. 'Potential strawman??'

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Experienced in what? Flying plane? Making mistakes/errors? Tying boots in the morning?
And routine flight... Most of the flights ending with fatal crashes started as routine flights.

I thought it was clear...I said 'experienced pilot' so this obviously means experienced at flying.....if I said experienced person' then you could throw the possibilities you have in questioning. And as for routine flight part...where is the environmental stress?

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Ok, I'll try to bring analogy: Two friends are on the hiking trip. One of them (Montiel) sees "face" on the distant cliff. He points it to his friend (controller): "Look, here is face!". "Where?" "Right there, between those trees. Do you see?" Friend squints, turns his head left/right: "Ah, yeah, I see now!"
Does this mean cliff resembling "face" was intentionally carved? Would the second guy see this "face" if not pointed to?

really? I see many problems with this analogy, hopefully the bolded gives you an indication of some of the issues.

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

You probably heard that pilots are somewhat shy in reporting UFOs (ridicule, questioning their mental state, etc). Now, imagine someone says "I saw raindeers on the wings"...

Again strawman. The fact is plain and simple that the pilot DID report what he saw.....

[bmk1245]

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

[...]
again the 'environmental stress' was the key factor.....[...]

Flying alone in fog plus knowledge your plane had problems plus errors/mistakes/misjudgement of the situation made under influence of hypoxia plus (probably) turbulence kicking plane's cojones. Stressful enough?

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

[...]If I post examples of people hallucinating on LCD would this suffice? no as it again has no direct resemblance of event we are discussing. 'Potential strawman??'[...]

We are not discussing drug abuse.

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

[...]
I thought it was clear...I said 'experienced pilot' so this obviously means experienced at flying.....if I said experienced person' then you could throw the possibilities you have in questioning. And as for routine flight part...where is the environmental stress?
[...]

What possible hallucinations have to do with experience?

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

[...]
really? I see many problems with this analogy, hopefully the bolded gives you an indication of some of the issues.
[...]

There are problems with this analogy, true, but I think you get my point.

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

[...]
Again strawman. The fact is plain and simple that the pilot DID report what he saw.....

Again, would he report if he would saw raindeers?

[quillius]

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Flying alone in fog plus knowledge your plane had problems plus errors/mistakes/misjudgement of the situation made under influence of hypoxia plus (probably) turbulence kicking plane's cojones. Stressful enough?

knowledge plane had problems? this stress did not induce hallucination as the problems were only apparent after he saw the object. what errors mistakes etc were made? what has indicated hypoxia? was there turbulence? all speculation that has no basis, let alone confirms that any of them would cause stress to this pilot, with even less confirmation that if it was stress it caused hallucination.....clutching at sraws here BMK.

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

We are not discussing drug abuse.

exactly my point...we are not discussing young soldiers being thrown into hostile environments....my LCD point is as 'irrelevant' as your original point it was countering.

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

What possible hallucinations have to do with experience?

what hallucinations??

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

There are problems with this analogy, true, but I think you get my point.

hmmm

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Again, would he report if he would saw raindeers?

strawman continues huh. He did not report reindeers, if he had seen reindeers then maybe he would maybe he wouldnt....what we DO know is he saw three objcts (whether physical or in mind) and he DID report it.

[bmk1245]

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

knowledge plane had problems? this stress did not induce hallucination as the problems were only apparent after he saw the object. what errors mistakes etc were made? what has indicated hypoxia? was there turbulence? all speculation that has no basis, let alone confirms that any of them would cause stress to this pilot, with even less confirmation that if it was stress it caused hallucination.....clutching at sraws here BMK.[...]

You are overlooking complexity of the problem. Well, before we go any further, answer these questions: Can one strongman lift (Hummer tire deadlift kinda competition) 1.5 tones? Can two strongmen lift same weight (1.5 tones)? Can three strongmen lift same weight (1.5 tones)? Can four strongmen lift same weight (1.5 tones)? (Hint: record is 504 kg)

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

[...]
what hallucinations??
[...]

The same as probable cause of pilot's sighting.

quillius, on 29 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

[...]
strawman continues huh. He did not report reindeers, if he had seen reindeers then maybe he would maybe he wouldnt....what we DO know is he saw three objcts (whether physical or in mind) and he DID report it.

I'm not arguing he did not "saw" "objects", nor he didn't report? This question arose from our discussion why "there are" no "plenty" of such cases reported. That was the point.

edit: spelling

Edited by bmk1245, 29 February 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[quillius]

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

You are overlooking complexity of the problem. Well, before we go any further, answer these questions: Can one strongman lift (Hummer tire deadlift kinda competition) 1.5 tones? Can two strongmen lift same weight (1.5 tones)? Can three strongmen lift same weight (1.5 tones)? Can four strongmen lift same weight (1.5 tones)? (Hint: record is 504 kg)

I dont think I am. You implied that one of the contributing factors of the 'stress' that induced a hallucination was the faulty plane. I responded questioning how the hallucination could have been induced by stress when the object was seen prior to attempting landing gear. Therefore it cannot be a contributing factor to the 'stress' as it happened after the event (only get out here would be that the pilot and air traffic controller both have their timing of the sequence of events wrong)

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

The same as probable cause of pilot's sighting.

and how did you arrive at probable when even possible is yet to be determined

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'm not arguing he did not "saw" "objects", nor he didn't report? This question arose from our discussion why "there are" no "plenty" of such cases reported. That was the point.

edit: spelling

and to say that its because they are simply not reported is a fallacy.

edit to add: apologies I didnt answer the first set of questions...lets run with the answer yes to every one.

Edited by quillius, 29 February 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[bmk1245]

I see we reached the point of WhyBCathiesmathisBSifcoloneltookinterestinit, so I'll step away.

[quillius]

bmk1245, on 29 February 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

I see we reached the point of WhyBCathiesmathisBSifcoloneltookinterestinit, so I'll step away.

dont worry I knew some of the questions were difficult and you can only avoid them by responding with questions for so long...

shame you are stepping away but yes probably wise to bury this.