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Spear of Destiny


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#1    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:30 AM

I know that there have been several topics on the spear already.  The quick summary is that the "spear of destiny" is Longinus' spear, the one used to pierce Jesus' side.  The spear supposedly gives the one who carries it the ability to never fall in battle, but if it falls out of their hands, then they die.  The spear's legend traces it to everyone from Alexander the Great to Hitler.  Supposedly even if Hitler didn't carry it, he searched for it extensively.

A recent episode of Brad Meltzer's Decoded went into the history of the spear and ended on a rather odd note.  Apparently there are groups of people still searching for this thing?  The last clip mentioned a group called "The Sons of the Fallen" who worship Lucifer as the true God and either have or are searching for the spear.  

Any thoughts from you guys?


#2    Abramelin

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:41 AM

You know about 'matches', right? Those little sticks to light your cigaret, or your nose if you happen to be blind.

Here in the Netherlands we call those things "lucifers".

But hey, we Dutch are the "Sons and Daughters of the Fallen".

God-The-Great-White-Bearded-Father-In-Heaven wants to drown us, but we fight back... building dikes, lol.


#3    Habitat

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:48 AM

Rumours (and legends) are apt to be wrong.


#4    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:49 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 February 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

You know about 'matches', right? Those little sticks to light your cigaret, or your nose if you happen to be blind.

Here in the Netherlands we call those things "lucifers".

But hey, we Dutch are the "Sons and Daughters of the Fallen".

God-The-Great-White-Bearded-Father-In-Heaven wants to drown us, but we fight back... building dikes, lol.


Your comment about the blind made me think of that scene in the old Frankenstein film...

View PostHabitat, on 04 February 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

Rumours (and legends) are apt to be wrong.

Of course, I'm just curious as to whether or not there are groups of people taking it that seriously.


#5    Abramelin

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:54 AM

View PostCoyote Speaks, on 04 February 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

Your comment about the blind made me think of that scene in the old Frankenstein film...



Of course, I'm just curious as to whether or not there are groups of people taking it that seriously.

LOL, that scene was what I was thinking of, but I changed 'thumb' into 'nose'.



Btw: I remember watching a documentary on National Geographic about that "Spear of Destiny".

Very intersting doc. Did you watch it?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 February 2012 - 02:58 AM.


#6    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:56 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 February 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

LOL, that scene was what I was thinking of, but I changed 'thumb' into 'nose'.

Btw: I remember watching a documentary on National Geographic about that "Spear of Destiny".

Very intersting doc. Did you watch it?

The one where they examined the different spears claiming to be it?  If so, yes.  I was very disappointed when Decoded took the time to examine the Vienna spear because the documentary already covered that... but oh well.  I find the spear one of the more interesting legends due to how many people throughout history have taken it so seriously.


#7    Habitat

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:02 AM

Is there solid evidence that Hitler was interested in this sort of stuff, or is it that just another legend in itself ?


#8    Englishgent

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:16 AM

It may well be an interesting subject but just how do they prove anything like this?   They cant.   So, anyone who takes this legend seriously cannot be expected to be taken seriously IMO :)
The other thing I find strange about it is this.  If the spear was used to pierce the side of this guy Jesus while he was on the cross, why does it give power to anybody weilding it? Who gives it this power. The christian god?  Surely if this god exists and it was his son who was on the cross, would god not rather curse anyone holding this spear?  
Or is it this so called 'satan' chappie who gives the spear it's power. I was always told that the christian god was all powerful. Surely he would not let a little thing like satan take over?
Anyway, they are pointless questions because just like all the other religious relics, none will ever be found. :)

edit,,,typo :blush:

Edited by Englishgent, 04 February 2012 - 03:18 AM.


#9    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:17 AM

View PostHabitat, on 04 February 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Is there solid evidence that Hitler was interested in this sort of stuff, or is it that just another legend in itself ?

If I'm not mistaken there were a few mentions of it proven to go back to him.  I can't dredge them up right now (I'm working on a few other things) but someone will probably come around and either correct me or validate it.  Either way, as I mentioned in a previous comment, I think it's an interesting topic.  

What I as hoping to find out and discuss is more whether or not there are groups particularly interested in it now.


#10    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:19 AM

View PostEnglishgent, on 04 February 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

It may well be an interesting subject but just how do they prove anything like this?   They cant.   So, anyone who takes this legend seriously cannot be expected to be taken seriously IMO :)
The other thing I find strange about it is this.  If the spear was used to pierce the side of this guy Jesus while he was on the cross, why does it give power to anybody weilding it? Who goves it this power. The christian god?  Surely if this god exists and it was his son who was on the cross, would god not rather curse anyone holding this spear?  
Or is it this so called 'satan' chappie who gives the spear it's power. I was always told that the christian god was all powerful. Surely he would not let a little thing like satan take over?
Anyway, they are pointless questions because just like all the other religious relics, none will ever be found. :)


Half the things discussed here can't be proven one way or the other, they're just fun to discuss.  I think it's an interesting thing to think about, a decent sort of plot in general.  

The reasoning behind that is that it had his blood on it, I suppose.  The spear that kills a god (or something partially divine) would surely have some sort of significance, wouldn't it?  

If you don't find the discussion interesting, though, not much point staying in the thread, hm?


#11    Englishgent

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:45 AM

View PostCoyote Speaks, on 04 February 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Half the things discussed here can't be proven one way or the other, they're just fun to discuss.  I think it's an interesting thing to think about, a decent sort of plot in general.  

The reasoning behind that is that it had his blood on it, I suppose.  The spear that kills a god (or something partially divine) would surely have some sort of significance, wouldn't it?  

If you don't find the discussion interesting, though, not much point staying in the thread, hm?

Hi Coyote.
I think maybe you misread my post. I started off by saying (quote)
''It may well be an interesting subject but......''
After that I just made some input into the thread regarding my own questions and opinion.
Permission to stay please?  :wacko:


#12    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:58 AM

View PostEnglishgent, on 04 February 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

Hi Coyote.
I think maybe you misread my post. I started off by saying (quote)
''It may well be an interesting subject but......''
After that I just made some input into the thread regarding my own questions and opinion.
Permission to stay please?  :wacko:

It's difficult to tell tone when posts are just typed out...  Apologies for the misreading, of course you can stay!  :yes: I didn't mean to snap or anything!  A few topics I began previously just got dismissed out of hand and never even got interesting speculation.  I was a bit afraid this one would go the same way.


#13    Englishgent

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:08 AM

View PostCoyote Speaks, on 04 February 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

It's difficult to tell tone when posts are just typed out...  Apologies for the misreading, of course you can stay!  :yes: I didn't mean to snap or anything!  A few topics I began previously just got dismissed out of hand and never even got interesting speculation.  I was a bit afraid this one would go the same way.

That is always a problem with the internet. You dont hear the tone of the person speaking (typing even) :)


#14    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:14 AM

View PostEnglishgent, on 04 February 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

That is always a problem with the internet. You dont hear the tone of the person speaking (typing even) :)

Hence the evil that are emoticons... they truly are necessary.   :rolleyes:

Really, though.  What do you think of the reasoning behind the spear having such supernatural powers?  If we consider God being non-interventionist then his son could be killed (alternately, we could assume that it is His will with the outcome being the same.)  The item that deals the deathblow and sheds holy blood would have some sort of power behind it.

On the other hand, if we view Jesus as a merely historical figure.. his followers would probably still view the spear that dealt his deathblow as important.  You're still watching your leader/man of import being murdered, it would make sense to assume it has some sort of mystical power attached to it.

Again, this is just speculation and trying to make sense of the legend.  The thought process seems to follow quite naturally, for me at least.  What are your thoughts?


#15    Habitat

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:25 AM

If it wasn't that particular spear, it would have been another. Any other. Attaching significance to the spear, or the so-called "holy grail", or any other object that happened to lying about at the time, plumbs the depths of silliness, IMO. It is a way of completely missing that which matters, and concentrate on irrelevancies,incidentals that have less importance to the story than a stage prop in a Shakespearean play.





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