168 replies to this topic

[kaptn k]

AngelsShadow, on 04 February 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

.....I can understand if you have a scientific way of thinking and it's hard for you to understand the concept of God and what not.

Well it's not because Christians like to insult the intelligence of non followers/believers in various ways (indsulting others when your 'savior' teaches you to do the opp. Love thy neighbor, JUDGE NOT OTHERS)....so on and so forth and yet, Chritian leaders and more than a few followers, seem to think they are so close to being Christ like that they end up, JUDGING OTHERS and in general..........not following the true teachings of their 'lord'.


As for the understand 'god' part............give me a break. One book still does not prove that any 'god' exists. And simply telling non believers that you have 'faith' and that that is enough well..........it's not enough for others that insist on having concrete evidence/proof.............not just some book telling me what is what.


The only thing Christians can bring to the table to 'proove' what they believe is the bible.

Please bring some real evidence........not a book. TY

[J. K.]

kaptn k, on 21 February 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

Well it's not because Christians like to insult the intelligence of non followers/believers in various ways (indsulting others when your 'savior' teaches you to do the opp. Love thy neighbor, JUDGE NOT OTHERS)....so on and so forth and yet, Chritian leaders and more than a few followers, seem to think they are so close to being Christ like that they end up, JUDGING OTHERS and in general..........not following the true teachings of their 'lord'.


As for the understand 'god' part............give me a break. One book still does not prove that any 'god' exists. And simply telling non believers that you have 'faith' and that that is enough well..........it's not enough for others that insist on having concrete evidence/proof.............not just some book telling me what is what.


The only thing Christians can bring to the table to 'proove' what they believe is the bible.

Please bring some real evidence........not a book. TY

What type of evidence would you accept as proof, since you are rejecting the primary source?

And yes, it is true that a lot of people call themselves Christians yet try to bash people rather than show the love that the Bible admonishes.

[Paranoid Android]

Re: Christianity and its bloodthirsty history.  

I've been reading this for a while now, looking at the ideas that more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other.  This is perhaps because Christianity has existed for nearly 2000 years (and the first 300 years they were actually the ones being persecuted because they were the new minority).  A better way to check whether Christianity is more "violent" than any other is to make a percentage of adherents of Christianity compared to how many have been killed by Christians (or more correctly in the name of Christianity).  Then do the same with other faiths or causes.  How many Christians have existed, and how man were killed as a result of Christianity?  How many communists have existed, and how many were killed as a result of communism?

Number of deaths divided by number of adherents = the blood ratio.

Unfortunately this is not a really helpful avenue since there is no way to truly know how many people in history have adhered to any religion or cause.  Did the people in 15th Century Europe have a choice to follow Christianity?  Do the people today who live in communist China automatically get pegged as "communist" just for living there?  But if it were possible to take an accurate account of numbers, the blood ratio (as I have dubbed it) would be the most accurate way to decide which cause or belief is the "bloodiest" in history.

Just a thought

~ PA

[psyche101]

Paranoid Android, on 22 February 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

Re: Christianity and its bloodthirsty history.  

I've been reading this for a while now, looking at the ideas that more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other.  This is perhaps because Christianity has existed for nearly 2000 years (and the first 300 years they were actually the ones being persecuted because they were the new minority).  A better way to check whether Christianity is more "violent" than any other is to make a percentage of adherents of Christianity compared to how many have been killed by Christians (or more correctly in the name of Christianity).  Then do the same with other faiths or causes.  How many Christians have existed, and how man were killed as a result of Christianity?  How many communists have existed, and how many were killed as a result of communism?

Number of deaths divided by number of adherents = the blood ratio.

Unfortunately this is not a really helpful avenue since there is no way to truly know how many people in history have adhered to any religion or cause.  Did the people in 15th Century Europe have a choice to follow Christianity?  Do the people today who live in communist China automatically get pegged as "communist" just for living there?  But if it were possible to take an accurate account of numbers, the blood ratio (as I have dubbed it) would be the most accurate way to decide which cause or belief is the "bloodiest" in history.

Just a thought

~ PA

Hi PA

In any case, the claims have not been supported, and danydandan retracted the claim he originally made as there seems to be no evidence to support the claim. The crusades seem to be the only area where people can point at Christians as a war like force, and all of those lumped together still do not tally WWII death toll. I do not believe the claim, I do believe it is a wild exaggeration that people jump on for the very reason this thread exists - to bash Christians, and turn people away from Christianity. If someone wants to embrace a religion for the right or wrong reasons, they should not be lied to.

[Paranoid Android]

psyche101, on 22 February 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Hi PA

In any case, the claims have not been supported, and danydandan retracted the claim he originally made as there seems to be no evidence to support the claim. The crusades seem to be the only area where people can point at Christians as a war like force, and all of those lumped together still do not tally WWII death toll. I do not believe the claim, I do believe it is a wild exaggeration that people jump on for the very reason this thread exists - to bash Christians, and turn people away from Christianity. If someone wants to embrace a religion for the right or wrong reasons, they should not be lied to.

I'm no expert in history but the Crusades seem the "biggest" individual war resulting from Christianity. And though you could argue that the Christians were simply "taking back" the lands that was taken from them, that's rather not the point.

There is of course the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, plus several ethnic wars. The problem is that in all situations religion was not the only factor, and in some cases not even the primary factor (and in even now cases where region was primary it was often a "smokescreen" for a different agenda altogether - such as the Crusades,  which as noted was about land, justified by religion).

Whatever the case, if it were possible to work out the blood ratio (sorry, can't think of a better term) that is the only way to logically work out which cause/idea is the bloodiest in history.

[Bluefinger]

encouraged, on 06 February 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I really thought that everyone was aware pretty much that all religions--even the religion of non-religion known as atheism--are used to justify the torturous acts that are done in their name. Seems like, "Have you accepted Jesus as your savior?" is far better than, "Do you proclaim Allah as God and Muhammad as his prophet? as the point of the spear is pointing at your face. Seems like using a campaign of terrors like that to spread Islam in its early days from Saudi Arabia to Spain, the Caucasus Mountains and beyond the great Wall of China justifies the eventual response of the crusades. Does anyone here realize the amount of blood that was shed in that Islamic campaign?

If atheists were genuinely concerned about the loss of human life, that would be the first example, followed by the real estate takeover of Genghis Khan, then perhaps the native Indian wars of Central and South Americas, followed by the atheist Stalin's attempts to wipe out all religions in Russian with slave-like persecutions building the marvelous architectural building we marvel at today on those people back and starvation. Then next would be the mention of the atheist Hitler and his war and his holocaust. Then next would be the atheist Carl Marx and the huge toll of the Bolsheviks revolution. Then possibly the Crusades would be mentioned.

So, why do you only mention the biblical wars, the Crusades, the things of the Christian background, because the concern for life is only a rouse to get to the ability to discredit Christianity. Christianity, on the whole, has done far more good on this Earth than what you can muster as "bad".

As to the proclamation of the New Atheists that we are only Christian because our parents were Christian, I wonder how your terrible experiences with Christianity led you to atheism if the religion of the parent determines the religion of the offspring. Isn't you decision of being an atheist mostly an act that disproves your own theory? You guys will have to strike that from your collective apologetics of atheism.

And obviously the statement that we can not prove to you our god is a two-way street in that you can not prove the lack of all gods.

So, on the stage of debates neither you nor any religion can claim first place because the things of religion are not based on fact, but faith. but then you already know this because your first and fall-back positions all have to do with facts.

TRAIN.JPG

Wow.  Well said encouraged..

[danydandan]

Paranoid Android, on 22 February 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

I'm no expert in history but the Crusades seem the "biggest" individual war resulting from Christianity. And though you could argue that the Christians were simply "taking back" the lands that was taken from them, that's rather not the point.

There is of course the Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, plus several ethnic wars. The problem is that in all situations religion was not the only factor, and in some cases not even the primary factor (and in even now cases where region was primary it was often a "smokescreen" for a different agenda altogether - such as the Crusades,  which as noted was about land, justified by religion).

Whatever the case, if it were possible to work out the blood ratio (sorry, can't think of a better term) that is the only way to logically work out which cause/idea is the bloodiest in history.

I did retract my statement . There was no real basis behind it . Since then I have been researching for a paper so I have been busy. Anyway , I have come across three books and four to five websites that seem credible , and even using the highest estimates Christianity inspired killings cant compare to HITLER , GENERAL MAO , all the civil wars , and on and on .
I really see no-more point in discussing this any more

And my claim was made on the basis of people killing in the name of god , or believing they were killing in said name,

and I agree with your comment "did they have a choice" to be Christian in the fifteenth century ?  

I think we can all agree that our history is a bloody one.

Edited by danydandan, 23 February 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

AngelsShadow, on 04 February 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Why is Christianity the only religion that's constantly under fire?

An article you may want to read  .. See below..

Christianity for People Who Don't Like Christianity

I'm a Christian. But I probably shouldn't be. If you're a young adult in America, you probably shouldn't be either. The odds are increasingly against it. Few friends who went to high school or college with me, and even fewer of my more recent friends and acquaintances, identify themselves as being Christian. Many of my peers who were raised in the church have shifted away from Christianity toward other religions -- or increasingly, to no religion.

A few years ago, the Barna Research Group conducted a study of young people asking them what they think of when they hear the word "Christian." The top three answers were, "anti-gay," "exclusive," and "judgmental."

If that's what Christianity were all about, I wouldn't want any part of it either.

Read a lot more on this here -> http://www.huffingto...y_b_892727.html

I also found another page that gives a list of 10 people  that give Christianity a bad name...I have part copied and pasted the info, not all is shown as the info on the page contains a lot of info on each perosn... Feel free to read more on this page -> http://listverse.com...ity-a-bad-name/

Top 10 people who give Christianity a bad mane ...

10 - Sun Myung Moon

He is the founder of the Unification Church, which has become worldwide since its origin in 1954. Moon was born in 1920, and has set himself up at the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. A lot of people go around saying, "I'm Jesus," but they are usually dismissed as insane or seeking attention.  He is extremely anti-Semitic, and his entire church with him, championing the Holocaust as divine vengeance against the Jews, because they did not support Jesus, and this brought about his murder by the Roman government.

...

9 - David Koresh

By 1983, after being kicked out of a 7th Day Adventist Church for fooling around with the pastor's daughter, he began calling himself a prophet. He was able to recruit followers because of his good looks and magnetic personality, eventually proclaiming himself Jesus Christ, "the Son of God, the Lamb who could open the seven seals." He taught that monogamy was the only proper relationship, but that polygamy was perfectly fine for him, and him alone, and quickly had sex with Karen Doyle, called her his second wife, after his first died, and proceeded to have sex with as many as 140 different women.

By the time of the Waco Siege, he had, by his own admission, fathered at least 12 children, some by girls as young as 12.

8 - Pat Robertson

He's worse than the previous two because he doesn't even know how to lie convincingly. He swears that "the spirit of God comes mightily upon [him]" and enables him to leg press 2,000 pounds, though he is 79 years old. This claim has been thoroughly debunked by weightlifting experts, and yet he persists in claiming and not proving it.

Most recently, he denounced Haiti after the January 12, 2010 earthquake, stating that Haiti deserved what it was getting because it swore a pact with the Devil back in 1791, in order to drive out the French.

He has many times called for the destruction of Islam and all its followers, not for their conversion to Christianity. he calls Islam "satanic." He calls Hinduism "demonic." He even claims some Protestant Christian denominations as harboring the spirit of the Antichrist....

7- Matthew Hale

Hale is currently serving 40 years in prison for attempting to solicit the murder of Judge Joan Lefkow

His church calls for a worldwide, racial holy war, to exterminate the Jews and all black people, in order to establish "a white world." His reasoning: God is white; God created the Jews and black people to test the faith and resolve of white people; thus, killing a Jew or black person is not a sin. After one of his followers

...

6- Michael Bray

Bray is not an ordained or college-educated minister, but he does preach a lot about abortion. He served 46 months of a 10 year sentence for conspiring to bomb 10 abortion clinics in Maryland, Virginia, and Washington D. C.

He is now out of prison and living in Wilmington, Ohio, officially labelled as a terrorist.

...

5- Paul Jennings Hill

Hill was a trained and ordained minister of the Presbyterian Church, but the church excommunicated him in 1993 for taking such a militant stand against abortion, and for becoming a member of the Army of God, a Christian terrorist, anti-abortion organization.

This ordained minister finally let his anger get the best of him when he traveled to Pensacola, Florida on July 29, 1994, to an abortion clinic, and murdered one of the doctors, and his bodyguard, point-blank with shotgun blasts

He was executed. The law does not permit vigilante justice.

...

4- Marshall Herff Applewhite, Jr.

Born May 17, 1931, he proclaimed himself a prophet in 1972, and then, as they all seem to do, proclaimed himself Jesus Christ reincarnated.

Followers flocked to his forceful charisma, when he told them that UFOs were coming to take them away to Heaven.

On March 19, 1997, as the comet Hale-Bopp was passing Earth, Applewhite recorded himself preaching to his congregation that suicide "was the only way to evacuate this earth."

His congregation did not believe in suicide, but was so enamored with him, that 39 members took his word for it, and on March 24, 25, and 26, they killed themselves with mixtures of phenobarbitol and applesauce, followed by vodka. ....They also put plastic bags over their heads to be sure of asphyxiating, in case the poison didn't work.

Applewhite's idea was to die so his spirit would ascend to the UFO following Hale-Bopp, which would then take him and his followers to another plane, both physical and spiritual.

3- Jim Jones

n 1974, the Temple went to Guyana, with only 50 members. But Jones promised others back in the States a tropical paradise, and they flocked by the hundreds to "Jonestown." Because he had always been an outspoken communist sympathizer, and intended Jonestown to be a socialist save haven, he drew the attention of the U. S. Government.

On November 17, 1978, investigating claims of abuse within the Temple, California congressman Leo Ryan went to Jonestown, and about 15 members wanted to leave with him. ...They attempted to depart via a nearby airstrip, and were fired upon by Temple security guards. Ryan was killed, along with four others, one a Temple member.

When the shooters returned to Jonestown, Jones and accomplices were preparing a mass suicide by poisoning: Flavor Aid loaded with cyanide, phenergan, Valium and chloral hydrate.

There are graphic pictures of the dead lying en masse outside the pavilion, 909 of them. The children were probably not told that the drink was poisoned.

Jones shot himself in the head.

2- Charles Coughlin
Father Charles Edward Coughlin was a priest who used the radio to acquire a large audience for his political and religious propaganda.

He started out innocently enough, using radio to decry the KKK for burning crosses on his church grounds, but ten years later, in 1936, he started praising and defending both Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini for their politics, and spewing some of the most despicable virulence against Jews to which the world had borne witness up to that point.

He blamed the Great Depression on "an international conspiracy of Jewish bankers," then blamed Communism, the Russian 1917 Revolution, and Marxist atheism on "global Jewry, in its attempt to lead people astray from the perfection of Lord Jesus."

He plagiarized a speech by Goebbels, then delivered it himself in a rally in the Bronx, September 13, 1935, giving the "Hitler salute." And this is what he said. This is what Father Charles E. Coughlin, SJ. said, "When we get through with the Jews in America, they'll think the treatment they received in Germany was nothing."

He acquired thousands of followers, who chanted things like, "Wait until Hitler gets over here!"

1- Fred Phelps, Sr.
He has 13 children, 4 of whom have disowned him and their other 9 siblings...Those 4 children, two men and two women, have denounced the man himself as "a vitrolic, megalomaniacal sadistic psychopath.

His "ministry" at the Westboro Baptist Church, which he founded, in Topeka, Kansas, is based almost entirely on anti-homosexuality, which is one of the easiest, if not the easiest, sin to denounce by means of quoting the Bible.

Whereas, there are plenty of verses to quote against hatred, "Love thine enemies" just one of them, as quoted above. Phelps and his worshipers (since they certainly don't worship Jesus) petulantly ignore these verses and enjoy themselves by hating others. It is a physical and emotional release, a pleasure just as sensual as that garnered by loving others.

He and his congregation picket at least 6 churches and political establishments around their hometown everyday, with signs that read, "God Hates F_gs," "Thank God for Dead American Soldiers," "America is Going to Hell," etc. They do this for the sole purpose of offending and causing wanton emotional distress....

They picket the funerals of dead soldiers, screaming at the families, even while they grieve at the gravesides, that the soldier has gone to Hell and so will they.

Point behind this is.. There are people many of them  not just the top 10 above that can give Christianity a bad name...    I guess that is why people have posters that read- Please God save me from your followers

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 24 February 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[danydandan]

That was good read Becky'sMom . Thanks for posting it , I appreciate it. I'm gona research these monsters for myself now , thanks for opening the door

[and then]

danydandan, on 24 February 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

That was good read Becky'sMom . Thanks for posting it , I appreciate it. I'm gona research these monsters for myself now , thanks for opening the door

While you're researching them D3 try to remember that not a single one of them is an example of persons living by the teachings of Christ i.e. Christians.  There is no doubt that a massive amount of evil has been done in this world by persons who have claimed the mantle of Christ.  But they are easily discredited by their actions towards others.  Judge them by their fruit, not what they say about themselves.  The tendency to vilify an entire group due to the misdeeds of the few helps no one.  And BM, I believe the article where the college student says she's Christian "but probably shouldn't be" means she hasn't really made a firm decision and is kidding herself about her faith.  Nothing wrong with that at all but her statements should be understood in the proper context. Christ's teachings are not anti gay or "judgmental" but they are most definitely exclusive to those who have no desire to live by His commandments.  Without the desire to live by His commandments no one can even try to have relationship with Him.  No harm, no foul.  Following Christ has always been a completely voluntary act of an individual heart.  Forced conversion by so called Christians is no better or more effective than what Muslims have done.  He himself told us not to judge.  In fact if we do judge others we give up our hope of personal forgiveness.  He would sit down to dinner and fellowship with gays as well as tax men or less legalized robbers.  The physician is for the sick.  I'm sure I'll be pounded for the view about homosexuality but I do not claim to be better or more righteous than anyone.  All have sinned.  The point is He forgives us IF we are willing.  Didn't mean to preach...just wanted to clarify.

[Beckys_Mom]

and then, on 24 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

While you're researching them D3 try to remember that not a single one of them is an example of persons living by the teachings of Christ i.e. Christians.  

No Christian does live like Christ... They claim to strive to, but thee is no such Christian that can live like Christ... Further more.. A number of them listed in the top 10   claimed  not to live like Christ  no  ....... They claimed to BE Christ

Quote

   And BM, I believe the article where the college student says she's Christian "but probably shouldn't be" means she hasn't really made a firm decision and is kidding herself about her faith.        

She is not kidding herself when she mentioned  why people dislike Christianity.. The judgemental views etc.. It is all true.. Heck you only have to read many of the threads  on here  to see why so many of us will not ever want to turn back to Christianity again  .. Most times people will say it is the judgemental views ... I have been on here for 7 years and I have read the lot..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 24 February 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[HerNibs]

and then, on 24 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

While you're researching them D3 try to remember that not a single one of them is an example of persons living by the teachings of Christ i.e. Christians.  There is no doubt that a massive amount of evil has been done in this world by persons who have claimed the mantle of Christ.  But they are easily discredited by their actions towards others.  Judge them by their fruit, not what they say about themselves.  The tendency to vilify an entire group due to the misdeeds of the few helps no one.  And BM, I believe the article where the college student says she's Christian "but probably shouldn't be" means she hasn't really made a firm decision and is kidding herself about her faith.  Nothing wrong with that at all but her statements should be understood in the proper context. Christ's teachings are not anti gay or "judgmental" but they are most definitely exclusive to those who have no desire to live by His commandments.  Without the desire to live by His commandments no one can even try to have relationship with Him.  No harm, no foul.  Following Christ has always been a completely voluntary act of an individual heart.  Forced conversion by so called Christians is no better or more effective than what Muslims have done.  He himself told us not to judge.  In fact if we do judge others we give up our hope of personal forgiveness.  He would sit down to dinner and fellowship with gays as well as tax men or less legalized robbers.  The physician is for the sick.  I'm sure I'll be pounded for the view about homosexuality but I do not claim to be better or more righteous than anyone.  All have sinned.  The point is He forgives us IF we are willing.  Didn't mean to preach...just wanted to clarify.

"He's not a REAL Christian."      I'm sorry but this gets old.

Muslims say the same thing.  "They are not REAL Muslims!"  


It doesn't matter.  99% of Christians and Muslims are normal everyday folk.  Don't start trouble, don't get into trouble and just try to be decent folk and do it just fine.

Why Christians?

If you are talking about forums that are mostly English/Western speaking boards...then it's USUALLY the most familiar religion so it will be the most discussed religion, pro and con.

BUT if you take a real look at this board it has several Muslim members, Hindu members, Jewish members, etc.  There have been very intense and long discussions (that have turned ugly) regarding ALL religions.

Go to a hardcore Christian forum, you will see some horrible bashing of other religions.  Same with Muslim.

If the individual claims to be a _________ and uses their holy books as defense of their hateful actions then yes, they ARE that religion.  Just stupid members that make the rest look bad.

Nibs

[danydandan]

and then, on 24 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

While you're researching them D3 try to remember that not a single one of them is an example of persons living by the teachings of Christ i.e. Christians.  There is no doubt that a massive amount of evil has been done in this world by persons who have claimed the mantle of Christ.  But they are easily discredited by their actions towards others.  Judge them by their fruit, not what they say about themselves.  The tendency to vilify an entire group due to the misdeeds of the few helps no one.  And BM, I believe the article where the college student says she's Christian "but probably shouldn't be" means she hasn't really made a firm decision and is kidding herself about her faith.  Nothing wrong with that at all but her statements should be understood in the proper context. Christ's teachings are not anti gay or "judgmental" but they are most definitely exclusive to those who have no desire to live by His commandments.  Without the desire to live by His commandments no one can even try to have relationship with Him.  No harm, no foul.  Following Christ has always been a completely voluntary act of an individual heart.  Forced conversion by so called Christians is no better or more effective than what Muslims have done.  He himself told us not to judge.  In fact if we do judge others we give up our hope of personal forgiveness.  He would sit down to dinner and fellowship with gays as well as tax men or less legalized robbers.  The physician is for the sick.  I'm sure I'll be pounded for the view about homosexuality but I do not claim to be better or more righteous than anyone.  All have sinned.  The point is He forgives us IF we are willing.  Didn't mean to preach...just wanted to clarify.

Do you believe every single word in the bible?( and i mean every single word)

[and then]

danydandan, on 24 February 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Do you believe every single word in the bible?( and i mean every single word)

I see no purpose in your question but to use my answer to "ambush" my faith but I've no problem with that.  Yes I believe in the inerrancy of scripture. Do I understand the entire meaning of every word?  Absolutely not. And no I do not accept anyone to be a real Christian who does not try to follow the commands of Christ. I don't judge them but I do have the ability to discern the real from the false. That's not a difficult concept for anyone unless their intent is to choose a camp and fire away.  I won't be drawn into an argument about faith.  I have no desire to force anyone to believe what I believe.  But by collectively judging an entire faith based on the actions of those who claim it in name only one is being judgmental and exclusionary also.  Best wishes to you all.

[danydandan]

and then, on 24 February 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

I see no purpose in your question but to use my answer to "ambush" my faith but I've no problem with that.  Yes I believe in the inerrancy of scripture. Do I understand the entire meaning of every word?  Absolutely not. And no I do not accept anyone to be a real Christian who does not try to follow the commands of Christ. I don't judge them but I do have the ability to discern the real from the false. That's not a difficult concept for anyone unless their intent is to choose a camp and fire away.  I won't be drawn into an argument about faith.  I have no desire to force anyone to believe what I believe.  But by collectively judging an entire faith based on the actions of those who claim it in name only one is being judgmental and exclusionary also.  Best wishes to you all.

no intend to Ambush , just asking