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Trojans were Basques?


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#391    cormac mac airt

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:28 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 15 April 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

In addition, the Aryans in the Middle East, most notably the Hittites, have now been found to have been in that region at least as early as 2200 BC, wherein they are already mentioned in Sumerian literature. In fact they derived their script from that of the third dynasty of Sumeria.
http://www.indiaforu...yan/page22.html

I think it could be a possibility, in thier chariots, some sources place Hittites as migrating out from the Maykop culture. When I watch the DVD which recreated their temples and walls, of massive thickness, and other things about them, it seems they were a HUGE culture, the ruins are massive, these people were really powerful and imo had the abilities and fit the mould of the people who entered India. Ramesses didn't win anything - the Hittites held their own against the most powerful nations of all in their time.

As I said, I believe their downfall may have been what generated the 'dark ages' at the end of Mycenaean culture - it makes aot of sense of you think about it - they were supplying everyone with horses and backing of all kinds, when they fell, it would only be logical thier allies would crumble if they weren't strong enough to support themselves, Mycenaean Greece had nothing to offer to sustain itself.

Your own link runs contrary to your idea in this matter, to whit:

Quote

The New Model of ancient India that has emerged from the collapse of the Aryan invasion theory is that of an indigenous development of civilization in ancient India from the Mehrgarh site of 6500 BC. The people in this tradition are the same basic ethnic groups as in India today, with their same basic types of languages Indo-European and Dravidian. There is a progressive process of the domestication of animals, particularly cattle, the development of agriculture, beginning with barley and then later wheat and rice, and the use of metal, beginning with copper and culminating in iron, along with the development villages and towns. Later Harappan (Sarasvati) civilization 3100-1900 BC shows massive cities, complex agriculture and metallurgy, sophistication of arts and crafts, and precision in weights and measures. This Sarasvati civilization was a center of trading and for the diffusion of civilization throughout south and west Asia, which often dominated the Mesopotamian region.

Post-Harappan civilization 1900-1000 BC shows the abandonment of the Harappan towns owing to ecological and river changes but without a real break in the continuity of the culture. There is a decentralization and relocation in which the same basic agricultural and artistic traditions continue, along with a few significant urban sites like Dwaraka. This gradually develops into the Gangetic civilization of the first millennium BC, which is the classical civilization of ancient India, which retains its memory of its oRigin in the Sarasvati region through the Vedas.

The New Model

cormac

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#392    Abramelin

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:35 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 14 April 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

Buren in Dutch apparently means neighbours.

I know Frisian quite well and know that bur in Frisian also means neighbours.

bð-r 50 und häufiger?, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Bauer (M.) (1), Nachbar,
Mitbewohner, Dorfgenosse, Bürger?; ne. neighbour (M.), farmer, citizen?

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf

That's what I posted a month or so ago,...as a joke.

Puzz, this thread is going nowhere.

All you and GGG do is play with words that have the letters -B- and -R- in them, and in that order.

It is an 'unexplained mystery' to me that anyone can take this seriously.


#393    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:09 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 April 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

That's what I posted a month or so ago,...as a joke.

Puzz, this thread is going nowhere.

All you and GGG do is play with words that have the letters -B- and -R- in them, and in that order.

It is an 'unexplained mystery' to me that anyone can take this seriously.
Well, that's OK, my aim in this thread is not really what GGG is doing, it's Basque language is in areas of Troy - but I'm sharing his interest as well - both my paternal and my mothers maiden names are B-R names, so maybe it goes deeper for me. I really don't care what anyone thinks, you should know that by now.  :innocent:

It's actually the most common sense answer that Hittites were not only a branch of Mycenaeans but financed them and also made expeditions east to areas of India, with their pointy hat priests, taking Zeus and Hera as well as IE language and genes all over the place.

Just reading more now, in a book, it says 'hawk nosed Indo Europeans' - another trait I have - an aquiline nose - a Roman nose as such, because Romans were also a Hittite line.

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#394    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:40 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 15 April 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

Your own link runs contrary to your idea in this matter, to whit:



The New Model

cormac

I'm more of an 'old model' kind of gal.

The Indo-European Kassites of the ancient Middle East worshipped Vedic Gods like Surya and the Maruts, as well as one named Himalaya. The Hittites and Mittani signed a treaty with the name of the Vedic Gods - Indra, Mitra, Varuna and Nasatyas - around 1400 BC. The Hittites have a treatise on chariot racing written in almost pure Sanskrit. The Indo-Europeans of the ancient Middle East spoke Indo-Aryan, not Indo-Iranian languages and thereby show a Vedic culture in that region of the world as well.(*42) This shows that Vedic culture extended from India to Anatolia by 2000 BC.
http://www.indiaforu...yan/page22.html



It might not have been an invasion as I said, maybe just friendly relations - point being, I think the Hittites were part of it, whether earlier in time that we know them as 'Hittites', connected with the Mitanni as well.

I don't have time really to pursue that angle that much for now, it was more the Hittite connection to Mycenaeans I saw that interested me more.

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 April 2012 - 07:41 AM.

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#395    Leonardo

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:49 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 15 April 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

So you think it's absolutely impossible that Hittites were part of an entrance into India?

My opinion is there is no evidence for the Hittite empire of the mid-12th century BCE 'dispersing' anywhere. There is evidence for a collapse (or partial collapse) of that empire, but that does not suggest we have to presume a diaspora based on that collapse.

My opinion is also there is even less evidence of an 'Aryan invasion' of the Indian subcontinent, as there is an 'Israelite invasion' of Canaan. At least in the archaeology of the ancient Levant we can find indications of the Israelites in conflict with the other indigenous Canaanites. In the archaeology of the subcontinent we find no such evidence for any "Aryan conflict".

Both the Israelites and the "Aryans" were indigenous to the regions they have, in some circles, been portrayed as invading. The Israelites as an individual tribe of Canaanites and the "Aryans" as either a similar ethnic entity, or even a social entity (i.e. a social class).

Edited by Leonardo, 15 April 2012 - 07:51 AM.

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#396    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 15 April 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

My opinion is there is no evidence for the Hittite empire of the mid-12th century BCE 'dispersing' anywhere. There is evidence for a collapse (or partial collapse) of that empire, but that does not suggest we have to presume a diaspora based on that collapse.

My opinion is also there is even less evidence of an 'Aryan invasion' of the Indian subcontinent, as there is an 'Israelite invasion' of Canaan. At least in the archaeology of the ancient Levant we can find indications of the Israelites in conflict with the other indigenous Canaanites. In the archaeology of the subcontinent we find no such evidence for any "Aryan conflict".

Both the Israelites and the "Aryans" were indigenous to the regions they have, in some circles, been portrayed as invading. The Israelites as an individual tribe of Canaanites and the "Aryans" as either a similar ethnic entity, or even a social entity (i.e. a social class).
First paragraph - fair enough - I propose it was prior to their collapse.

2nd. OK, no invasion, more an entrance of some kind, through trade or such.

3rd. Aryans were Medes and the like. They were worshippers of Hindu deities.
The English word "Aryan" is borrowed from the Sanskrit word ārya meaning 'Noble';[1] it was used initially as a national name to designate the worshippers of the Hindu deities and especially Indra according to Brahmanical principles (performance of sacrifice, Yajna).[1][12] The Zend airya 'venerable' and Old Persian ariya are also considered as national names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya

The Hittites and Mittani signed a treaty with the name of the Vedic Gods - Indra, Mitra, Varuna and Nasatyas - around 1400 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

Hittites, Mitanni, Aryan Medians, which included Magi - then Persians - all connected to the origin of worshipping Vedic Gods - some connection had been made.

Anyway, I'll consider it all some more, right now, it's a bit off topic, so I'll get back on track.


Spell edit.

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 April 2012 - 02:18 PM.

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#397    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 02:49 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

And just to add another nail or two to Leonardo's post, the Hittite Empire didn't end until c.1180 BC and they DID have their own written language. Also that genetics has shown that there was no "Aryan Invasion" and therefore no need for a Hittite (or other groups) appearance in India.

cormac
Funny how their end co-incides with the destruction of Troy.

Those who believe that the stories of the Trojan War are derived from a specific historical conflict usually date it to the 12th or 11th centuries BC, often preferring the dates given by Eratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, which roughly corresponds with archaeological evidence of a catastrophic burning of Troy VIIa.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Trojan_War

From what I know they used Babylonian or Akkadian cuneiform script to write in their own language, but had no written language of their own.

I don't think they would have left much genetic material there, I don't see them as becoming part of the landscape. As I understand it, very little Roman dna is in the British, even though they were there for 400 years.

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#398    cormac mac airt

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:33 PM

Quote

I'm more of an 'old model' kind of gal.

Considering that the 'old model' is defunct, you're pretty much beating a dead horse.

Quote

From what I know they used Babylonian or Akkadian cuneiform script to write in their own language, but had no written language of their own.

They adopted the cuneiform script AS their written language and used it for over 500 years. Their spoken language was Anatolian in origin, but not the same as the Luwian evidenced in Troy. None of which can be used to support a migration from Anatolia to India.

cormac

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#399    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:48 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 15 April 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Considering that the 'old model' is defunct, you're pretty much beating a dead horse.



They adopted the cuneiform script AS their written language and used it for over 500 years. Their spoken language was Anatolian in origin, but not the same as the Luwian evidenced in Troy. None of which can be used to support a migration from Anatolia to India.

cormac
lol maybe. I don't see it as defunct as it might seem.

I was adding that in regards to you saying they didn't have their own written language - in a way they did, in a way they didn't - it seems they had no alphabet of their own or original writing system, a bit like the Greeks, who took on a different alphabet and wrote it according to their own speech.

That's why they could easily read all the texts found at Hattusa, they were written in cuneiform. Mute point anyway, moving on.

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#400    cormac mac airt

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:33 PM

Quote

I was adding that in regards to you saying they didn't have their own written language...

I never made that claim. That was actually your doing as you said:

Quote

From what I know they used Babylonian or Akkadian cuneiform script to write in their own language, but had no written language of their own.

What I said was:

Quote

They adopted the cuneiform script AS their written language...

That the cuneiform script wasn't indigenous to the Hittites is irrelevant to the fact that they adopted it and made it their own for several centuries. Which runs counter to your previous link.

Edit to add:  If you'd have said that they has no indigenous written language then we would be in agreement, however you didn't. There is a distinction.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 15 April 2012 - 04:36 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#401    GGG guy

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:47 PM

I want to expand on the territory and people of Zebulun, and their coastal activities. Apparently, they were the resource for both glass, and the purple dye. The sea coast here has a special type sand good for glass, of the soda-lime variety, basically silica, and the territory has the soda lime deposits to suit the requirements for a good clean and clear glassy (vitreous) glass manufacture. These wed links will allow us the put this into context, and allow the locational identity of Zebulun people/s, as mentioned in both biblical text, and recovered artifacts/

The Glassmakers; The Biblical Period - The Jews and Their Progenitors

Deuteronomy 33:19 They will summon peoples to the mountain and there offer sacrifices of righteousness; they will feast on the abundance of the seas, on the treasures hidden in the sand."

The second text stresses the relevance of my mountain-top descriptor, and I believe Kebara Cave here, at Mt. Carmel, in related to the deity Kubera in India.

This also suggest the Basque Zu may be related to both a Sumerian Zi, and a Zebulun Ze. If so, I think it could be defined to mean spirit/soul. This being an Egyptian Ka, that could also be a Turkish dog, or wolf, which I think may mean, the spiriy of the dog wolf, of their Ka, thus a deified wolf spirit, within a similar context. To note that on the Minoan ring Puzzler attached, the statement, they dressed in animal attire (in the ring portrait), but I see these a dressed as wolves. Ant the Lightning mark that appears to be in the sky. This would be my observation from this ring, in addition to.

To see a glass boule at ~1200 BC, I'll attach a web link so we can see one recovered from a sunken ship wreak. The date of this wreck is certain, in my opinion. This article gives analysis for trace composition in the glass recovered, and some insight to both Egyptians, Mycenaean, and Israel glass, of this period.

ScienceDirect.com - Journal of Archaeological Science - The provenance of some glass ingots from the Uluburun
shipwreck

Here's an image of the boule recover from this wreck.

Turkey,Uluburun glass ingot.jpg

My question would be, are these the same people as from Bad - Tibira By Ur, and Eridu, in Sumeria?

Here's a Bad -Tibira image I found, I don't think its ancient, there wasn't anything about the image from the web site where I obtained this, if I even still have it. However, it begs the question, is Bad Tibira rekated to wolf tamga type tribe, of can a name as Buryan, or Burjan be derive in this city?

Sumeria, Bad Tibira.gif

Bad - Tibira is the Sumerian 2nd dynasty, said to be from Eridu, the 1st dynasty, I believe, taken from the Sumerian kings list, suggesting, Sumerians could exist before these kings were written down and recorded. This location can be time lined from these factors, but, I don't see this as the actual date historical limits, but, what is known, and that which can be ascertained from what we currently now have from multiple studies.

It could be that Bad -Tibira, as blacksmiths, would have the furnace technology to enable a Zebulun process to actually heat up silica, thereby obtain glass. Bad -Tibira. Bad - Tibera wouldn't have has the proper silica sand, nor the soda-lime deposits. It may be that this glass was an accidental part of of metal smelting process, as slag from Zebulun metal making, because, these sands, and lime were inadvertantly part of the start ore. In this way, one could thereafter, seek out the constituents in this slag, are then refine the process, and make acceptable glassware therefrom. After this, they taught others the process, and likely shipped them boules of glass, from Zebulun, but that other, once understood, could equally find more sources for this start sand, and soda lime deposits. The analysis from Uluburun recovered boules, and the glass beads, could support this type of analysis, at the date of this wreckage.

Did Basque or Iberia Spain people have a glass process of ancient times?


#402    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:40 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 15 April 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I never made that claim. That was actually your doing as you said:



What I said was:



That the cuneiform script wasn't indigenous to the Hittites is irrelevant to the fact that they adopted it and made it their own for several centuries. Which runs counter to your previous link.

Edit to add:  If you'd have said that they has no indigenous written language then we would be in agreement, however you didn't. There is a distinction.

cormac
OK, it was late, I was replying to you saying they DID have a written language, I explained my answer, I agree with they had no indigenous written language.

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#403    The Puzzler

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:49 PM

Does anyone think it a valid idea the Mycenaean world may have collapsed because of the fall of the Hittites, who may have provided financial backing as well as horses, chariots etc to them..?

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#404    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:10 AM

Quote

Does anyone think it a valid idea the Mycenaean world may have collapsed because of the fall of the Hittites, who may have provided financial backing as well as horses, chariots etc to them..?

Not directly as the end of the Mycenaean Civilization is equivalent to the end of the Late Helladic IIIC (LH IIIC) period c.1060 BC. Which is 120 years after the end of the Hittite Empire.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#405    The Puzzler

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:20 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 April 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

Not directly as the end of the Mycenaean Civilization is equivalent to the end of the Late Helladic IIIC (LH IIIC) period c.1060 BC. Which is 120 years after the end of the Hittite Empire.

cormac
Yes, but it shows serious decline from some time earlier than it's end, it would take some time to dwindle off, continuing on, maybe in a lesser financial situation, more desperate, raiding and such, until it couldn't sustain itself anymore...

Edited by The Puzzler, 16 April 2012 - 12:21 AM.

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