607 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

Maybe, it's all very tentative but I'll agree on the last part I highlighted in your post.

And what you're apparently not getting is that that's what I was saying to begin with. That's why I mentioned R1a NOT being the origin of PIE/IE in Europe, but likely R1b-M269. You can quote Wikipedia all you want, but that doesn't make R1a relevant as the primary haplogroup in the discussion of language origins nor is it relevant to the OP which is effectively DOA in my opinion.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 23 February 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

And what you're apparently not getting is that that's what I was saying to begin with. That's why I mentioned R1a NOT being the origin of PIE/IE in Europe, but likely R1b-M269. You can quote Wikipedia all you want, but that doesn't make R1a relevant as the primary haplogroup in the discussion of language origins nor is it relevant to the OP which is effectively DOA in my opinion.

cormac

What you were getting at is what you first answered to Slim:

Quote

Uh No, as Indo-Europeans had already started making their way into Europe via Anatolia by 7000 BC, 1000 years before.

OK, I'll start a new thread, I'm over this for now anyway but not the genetics involved in the spread of PIE, not that anyone else will be interested, except you possibly. I only quote Wiki because it's easy to access and usually rounds things out pretty well.

[GGG guy]

I also have some issues with yDNA and the fact I'm R1a1 as Burian, but that this name and tribe earlier epoch as Buryan/Burjan can yet be as Siberian Buryan, and/or and India Burjan, and because it was perhaps deified early on, a "Sky God" and mountain domain can be passed through different tribes and ethos. Numerous linguistic variants to this idea becomes apparent to me. Because a dog/wolf DNA tends to stem from Siberia, and because Eastern religions actually lean to a deified dog/wolf in Central Asia, Siberia, and Mongolia, as a minimum, The logic would allow an East to West migration from very early dates as domestic dogs date ~12,000 BC from carbon dating in Siberia and central Asia. If we follow this logic, then root origins should be either in India, the Pamir Knot (Hindu Kush regions), Siberia, Mongolia, or Bactrian regions.

Outside of the yDNA, and IE language predominance to these regions, I believe that this wolf tribe can maybe be traced, however, one must reconcile a deified concept to allow and inter-ethos evolution to this deity, and also consolidation of tribes, as testified to in the bible concerning the 12-tribes and their respective territorial allotments, or regions.

My easiest way to deify this tribal name (for readers) is to align them as Hyperboreans, or simply Boreans. In this case one can incorporate a wolf, have blacksmiths, have immortal life, have a concept that man was created from clay (dirt), and likely, the originator in many myths and folklore.

The question for Iberian Spain would be, did these same concepts get used in the names and locations, as in mountain names (for instance), and is this the very same people that named it, or was it named due to a borrowed concept by another base tribe (or yDNA) ethos. I believe I can derive this type of name here at Iron Age dates, but also has some preponderance involved in dolmen names, and ring-stones (or henges) in many  locations.

In England the largest ring-stone structure is called Avebury, and is a henge by definition as it exhibits both a trench, and raised embankment.  Inside the larger structure is two additional ring-stone structures. The whole complex is ~1mile in diameter. I've read that Avebury comes from Abiri, which is said to be an ancient name for Israelites and Hebrew dialect, which I could add as Tiberian Hebrew, or the blacksmiths of Bad Tibira Sumeria. If tue, I could lean to a Benjamite tribe as both the archers, and a wolf tribe. This may help in the understanding that arrowheads were dug up at both Avebury, and at Stonehenge. I believe it was Abaris, the Hyperborean preist who flew around the globe on his arrow, non-stop, without eating.

Avebury Stones - YouTube

The Merry Maidens Stone Circle - Cornwall Beauty - YouTube

The Merry Maidens is near St. Buryans church in Cornwall England towards Lands End central region. (built ~ 10th cent. AD and associated with the Irish St. Buriana, or as Berry in the Domesday census book of the period). I can only say that they should be miners, and that I can have an Anatolian as a Buryan tribe, even as slaves in this region of Corwall around 200 BC. Thus the association if the name of the church would have no bearing on the stones, already in place. On the other hand, as miners, they could have been here anyway, as Iberians of sorts. I believe slang for a miner here may be the term "borean man". Because of the tin, and Phoenician inscriptions found here too, One may be able to assimilate the earlier stone-circle dates, and perhaps, where they came from.

Because Berry was defined herein as to mean "new", I have some issue to this, and I haven't encountered this definition yet. This is a critical word due to the fact there is supossed to be a Berryan village in the Sahara in ancient times, and close to Mzab, somewhere. Text described a "very white" people with a seat at Berryan (government type seat, or representative). The Hyperboreans are part of this, as the name "Atlas" of the mountain name, in the region, and, Zeus's rock edifice. I suppose a rock edifice would be more "in fashion" than a mere set of ring-stones, aye? There is a minor group of ring-stones in S. Egypt regions, and this should be of these affiliates that  follow this same type of deity and its shamanistic sky-god and mountain (ore) that has a sky-god summit, where Earth-god resides, and connects to the upper-heaven god/s, above the cloud tops, or above the ether, the realm of the originator gods, where your immortal soul ends up after death. However, a Buryan/Burjan became to mean, mountain, berg, hill, borough, alp...etc. It also means in Arabic - tower. The word Berryan to me, could readily fit a Buryan syntax it seems, but I know little of this Saharan location, and I'll have to dig deep to recover my text and book on this topic.

I believe I can connect this tribe as Siberian-Iberian/Caucasus-Iberia (Spain) as Strabo suggest. Myself as yDNA R1a shouldn't be a part of most of this as I believe I'm likely Caucasus Iberian, Danube migrations, and became Czech-Bohemian. However yDNA R1b is also in Central Asia. So which came first. A Buryan tribe in the West European regions, or a Buryan of Eastern Asian regions. If East is my answer, then exactly where in the East?

We should also note the Bell-Beaker pottery seems to stem from the Iberian Spain regions as the oldest tested variety currently known. Thanks for the attachments. I'll attach some Avebury henge pics. Is this really an "Avenue of Burians", or does Bury=Buri (Norse deity). The actual Buri tribe would be Romanian, German Saxon, where Sax is of the word Axe, and a Buri tribe should be blacksmiths, or Saxons.  I've read they claim their name is of this same Norse god named Buri. (Ptolymy dates from ~170 AD maps in Central Europe and named Lugi-Buri). I think Lugi can be Ligurians, and connects to the Kabeiros cult goddess Beiro.

In Andulusa Spain is the river Beiro (near Castillo), and in this way, one can have an Iberian in South-West Spain by the Balearic Isles, and my conceptual "Borean Sea" (See Alborean, and/or Alboran seas).

Some text has stated that a Hebrew Abiri is also the same people as the Phoenician Barats. Hence, Brittainy, and other names. I believe a Buryan/Burjan (maybe Benjamin) tribe of Lebanon can allow for Beiro (Posidon's daughter, and wife of Hephaestos (Lemnos Isle - the blacksmith), but this text also suggest they may be part of the Phoenicians. Beiro can be found on Phoenician coins. My though has been a shared Crete Isle where Hyperboreans were on the East end, and Phoenicians to the West end. Zeus was raised as an infant in a cave here, so one can't deny a connection, albeit Abiri tribe as Hebrew syntax, and/or Hyperboreans.

So, is this the same Avebury henge builders in England, or was a defied name brought there, or were these locations name later, without any trace of the previous tribal people that have since vanished, leaving us with little trace to re-assimilate a base tribe name?

See if these notions have some merit, and, can they be time lined in some adequate way? Is this early enough to define a religion or deity for some of the megalith builders? Did this deity become fashionable? To mean, did everybody want rings of stones? Or, tri-megaliths? I've seen Avebury defined as a Gladiator Areana type amphitheater, to battle animals, or men, but where an outer trence filled with water contains the beast inside the circle, and the spectators would sit along the outer raised embankment to watch. I have a problem with seeing an event that is 1/4 mile away. This henge is many football fields in scope. This would require some kind of occular device to actually see such an event. Maybe sections were cordoned off.

The timeline for ring-stone, and wooden-ring structures is quite wide (millenniums), and covers a very far-reaching regional domains. This suggests that if they are religious structures, and/or burial markers, then a defied notion seems to be the most promising way to explain some kind of common practice (copycats), and allow a long history of evolution, culminating in these stone-type structures later than the wooden varieties, as this deity type migrated around. The idea of an immortal soul could launch such an episode and also the mythologies that stem from this. This allows for the modern day "hope" as the aspirations associated with Christaininty. That is, a hope of eternal life, in paradise, with our creator, God. At ring-stone dates, very barbaric people though, albeit somewhat civilized, still very problematic from a trained thinkers perspective in older times, which gives testimony to the justice and laws in Sumerian times.

Thanks for the additional info and attachments. I haven't had much luck tracing wolf tribes in Spain, or Portugal yet. There is a wolf species indigenous to these regions. I don't know how this may play in to any findings on the topic.

Thanks, GGG guy.

[GGG guy]

Sorry for my error in text above. South-West Spain should state South-East Spain - the true location for Andulusa territory in Spain. GGG guy.

[The Puzzler]

OK, I'm back on track here now. I also discovered that the island of Pantelleria, which lies in the middle of the Strait of Sicily (which had indications of tectonic activities in the Bronze Age) was inhabited by Iberians or Ibero-Ligurians in ancient times, before the Phoenicians.

Archaeological evidence has unearthed dwellings and artifacts dated at 35,000 years ago.

The original population of Pantelleria did not come from Sicily, and was of Iberian or Ibero-Ligurian stock. After a considerable interval, during which the island probably remained uninhabited, the Carthaginians took possession of it (no doubt owing to its importance as a station on the way to Sicily) probably about the beginning of the 7th century BC, occupying as their acropolis the twin hill of San Marco and Santa Teresa, 2 km (1.2 mi) south of the town of Pantelleria. The town possesses considerable remains of walls made of rectangular blocks of masonry, and also of a number of cisterns. Punic tombs have also been discovered, and the votive terra-cottas of a small sanctuary of the Punic period were found near the north coast.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Pantelleria
http://www.crusadert...antelleria.html

That is Sicily and Pantelleria that has mention of the original inhabitants being an Iberian type.

imo these would be I haplogroup stock who spread out all through the Western Mediterranean and built the structures on these islands as well as Malta and Gozo, and indications there, especially with the cart ruts is, part of the island has fallen away.

Pantelleria is very interesting actually: The island of Pantelleria is located above a drowned continental rift in the Strait of Sicily and has been the locus of intensive volcano-tectonic activity.


I typed this from the book link below, I know it's an Atlantis thing but still, the geological evidence might show something like that, it seems plausible to me.

If you look at Google Earth you can see how this whole area looks like it might have been above sea level at one point.

According to Maltese reseacrher Anton Mifsud, a large land bridge between Malta and the nearby island of Filfla cataclysmically collapsed, generating giant waves that flooded the whole archipeligo and brought about the end of Neolithic life on Malta. Traces of major faulting in the submarine Pantelleria Rift, upon which both islands sit, have been dated to 2200BC.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Also:
Iron spherules from Tunisian peat bogs are the result of a comet collision with Earth dated to the late 17th century BC, "their heterogeneous composition" according to Larsson and Franzen "points to another formation mechanism (other than vulcanism) maybe comet or asteroid impacts in ocean shelf sediments (Palmer and Bailey 1998)

[keithisco]

Just picking up on a couple of points from GGG Guy... Avebury, had previously been called Abury, but the Stone - Henge (it would have been such ) there was not recorded until 1648 by the Historian Aubrey (the name I believe to be coincidental). There is a single 13th century reference to the earthworks - but not to the stones. Aubrey described the henge very particularly as having lintels - as Stonehenge retains - and witnessed the removal of one of these lintels stating that the pieces needed 20 carts to remove. It is difficult to comprehend that such a huge structure, much larger than Stonehenge, could have been missed by Pliny
.
Link to Historical Account

The etymology of the name Abury contains some highly conjectural links with the Vasco language:
1. Ibai - River,Water Valley (if Ibar is the root)
2. Ur - water
3. Harri - stone
4. Ai - is an exclamation

The pronunciation of the vasco words leads, as I have stated very conjecturally, to a placename that would sound almost identical to Abury

Edited by keithisco, 26 February 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[The Puzzler]

keithisco, on 26 February 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Just picking up on a couple of points from GGG Guy... Avebury, had previously been called Abury, but the Stone - Henge (it would have been such ) there was not recorded until 1648 by the Historian Aubrey (the name I believe to be coincidental). There is a single 13th century reference to the earthworks - but not to the stones. Aubrey described the henge very particularly as having lintels - as Stonehenge retains - and witnessed the removal of one of these lintels stating that the pieces needed 20 carts to remove. It is difficult to comprehend that such a huge structure, much larger than Stonehenge, could have been missed by Pliny
.
Link to Historical Account

The etymology of the name Abury contains some highly conjectural links with the Vasco language:
1. Ibai - River,Water Valley (if Ibar is the root)
2. Ur - water
3. Harri - stone
4. Ai - is an exclamation

The pronunciation of the vasco words leads, as I have stated very conjecturally, to a placename that would sound almost identical to Abury

Very interesting Keith, if Britain was inhabited by an Iberian type in Neolithic times, one would expect they may have built the megaliths there, or at least some of them - so naming Avebury in a native name - possibly a Vasco/Basque language.

This is how I originally perceived an idea in this thread - that Basque - Vasco words were seen in various other place names - indicating a dispersion of peoples from Western Europe into the Med. I believe bury (barrow) may be related to harri as well, denoting a stone tomb.

[The Puzzler]

GGG said:

Quote

Because Berry was defined herein as to mean "new", I have some issue to this, and I haven't encountered this definition yet. This is a critical word due to the fact there is supossed to be a Berryan village in the Sahara in ancient times, and close to Mzab, somewhere. Text described a "very white" people with a seat at Berryan (government type seat, or representative). The Hyperboreans are part of this, as the name "Atlas" of the mountain name, in the region, and, Zeus's rock edifice. I suppose a rock edifice would be more "in fashion" than a mere set of ring-stones, aye? There is a minor group of ring-stones in S. Egypt regions, and this should be of these affiliates that follow this same type of deity and its shamanistic sky-god and mountain (ore) that has a sky-god summit, where Earth-god resides, and connects to the upper-heaven god/s, above the cloud tops, or above the ether, the realm of the originator gods, where your immortal soul ends up after death. However, a Buryan/Burjan became to mean, mountain, berg, hill, borough, alp...etc. It also means in Arabic - tower. The word Berryan to me, could readily fit a Buryan syntax it seems, but I know little of this Saharan location, and I'll have to dig deep to recover my text and book on this topic.

My thoughts.

Thinking about the ocacle of Zeus at Dodona originally being Amun, the Ram God of Libya, Siwa Oasis in ancient Libya, now part of Egypt.
Amun might mean, a mound, a mun, a mons, a mountain. The promordial mound. Meaning Zeus and Amon could both represent a mountain (Zeus being Olympus), rather than ringed stones as you say.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 27 February 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Very interesting Keith, if Britain was inhabited by an Iberian type in Neolithic times, one would expect they may have built the megaliths there, or at least some of them - so naming Avebury in a native name - possibly a Vasco/Basque language.

This is how I originally perceived an idea in this thread - that Basque - Vasco words were seen in various other place names - indicating a dispersion of peoples from Western Europe into the Med. I believe bury (barrow) may be related to harri as well, denoting a stone tomb.

Not saying it is wrong, but here are some alternative explanations:

I would suggest that the v in Avebury is a u, and should be read as ‘Au,’ quasi Auld-bury — i.e. ‘old burrow’; barrows here are called burrows, and the terminal ‘borough’ in English names has been held by antiquaries to indicate remote antiquity.

http://elfinspell.co...Stonehenge.html

The village of Avebury itself, which now stands partly within and amongst the stone circles, did not come into existence until nearly 3000 years after the stones themselves were erected. There is no mention of a village at this location in the Domesday Book, though the church and earthwork are mentioned by the name of Aureburie. The village is mentioned as Aveberia in 1180, and Abury in 1386; the name "Avebury" first appears in 1689, but even today, many still pronounce the name "A'bury." This was also the name used by antiquarian William Stukeley, who wrote about the site in 1722 in his book titled Abury - a Temple of the British Druids.

http://www.timetrave...s/avebury.shtml


Avebury : Affa's Burgh/Burrow?

 Avebury_Affa.jpg   80.88K   6 downloads

[keithisco]

Abramelin, on 27 February 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

Not saying it is wrong, but here are some alternative explanations:

I would suggest that the v in Avebury is a u, and should be read as 'Au,' quasi Auld-bury — i.e. 'old burrow'; barrows here are called burrows, and the terminal 'borough' in English names has been held by antiquaries to indicate remote antiquity.

http://elfinspell.co...Stonehenge.html

The village of Avebury itself, which now stands partly within and amongst the stone circles, did not come into existence until nearly 3000 years after the stones themselves were erected. There is no mention of a village at this location in the Domesday Book, though the church and earthwork are mentioned by the name of Aureburie. The village is mentioned as Aveberia in 1180, and Abury in 1386; the name "Avebury" first appears in 1689, but even today, many still pronounce the name "A'bury." This was also the name used by antiquarian William Stukeley, who wrote about the site in 1722 in his book titled Abury - a Temple of the British Druids.

http://www.timetrave...s/avebury.shtml


Avebury : Affa's Burgh/Burrow?

Avebury_Affa.jpg

I am completely open to any ideas as to where present day Avebury got its name.

I am quite interested in the name Aveberia (from 1180 as you mention). There is a definite connotation with Iberia there, but that may just be my own thoughts. If the Domesday Book relates to the  name of "Aureburie" then it brings us , perhaps, a little closer. Because the "e" at the end is actually pronounced as a separate vowel.An "a" sound.

I am quite sure that no definitive answer is possible however, but interesting to try..

[Abramelin]

keithisco, on 28 February 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

I am completely open to any ideas as to where present day Avebury got its name.

I am quite interested in the name Aveberia (from 1180 as you mention). There is a definite connotation with Iberia there, but that may just be my own thoughts. If the Domesday Book relates to the  name of "Aureburie" then it brings us , perhaps, a little closer. Because the "e" at the end is actually pronounced as a separate vowel.An "a" sound.

I am quite sure that no definitive answer is possible however, but interesting to try..

Personally I think that third quote - the scanned page - gives us the most probable answer: a burgh.

[keithisco]

Abramelin, on 28 February 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Personally I think that third quote - the scanned page - gives us the most probable answer: a burgh.

I just think that "Burgh" is far too modern. The word -burgh (suffix) did not exist in the 11th century, in fact not until the 14th C. I dont think there was even a town there until the 17th century.

it really is very complicated, getting to the roots takes you down several "blind alleys". One thing is certain, it is a very ancient site, and any modern interpretations of the name will almost certainly prove wrong. It is a relic of a time before recorded history and its importance would almost certainly have been handed down as a verbal tradition,

We will never know, of that I am sure, Somebody must have had a plan for its construction, and this plan surely must be recorded somewhere - it would be like finding the Rosetta Stone, if it was committed to a carving somewhere.

Edited by keithisco, 28 February 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[Abramelin]

keithisco, on 28 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I just think that "Burgh" is far too modern. The word -burgh (suffix) did not exist in the 11th century, in fact not until the 14th C. I dont think there was even a town there until the 17th century.

it really is very complicated, getting to the roots takes you down several "blind alleys". One thing is certain, it is a very ancient site, and any modern interpretations of the name will almost certainly prove wrong. It is a relic of a time before recorded history and its importance would almost certainly have been handed down as a verbal tradition,

We will never know, of that I am sure, Somebody must have had a plan for its construction, and this plan surely must be recorded somewhere - it would be like finding the Rosetta Stone, if it was committed to a carving somewhere.

"Burgh" too modern?

borough
O.E. burg, burh "a dwelling or dwellings within a fortified enclosure," from P.Gmc. *burgs "hill fort, fortress" (cf. O.Fris. burg "castle," O.N. borg "wall, castle," O.H.G. burg, buruc "fortified place, citadel," Ger. Burg "castle," Goth. baurgs "city"), from PIE *bhrgh "high," with derivatives referring to hills, hill forts, fortified elevations (cf. O.E. beorg "hill," Welsh bera "stack, pyramid," Skt. bhrant-, Avestan brzant- "high," Gk. Pergamos, name of the citadel of Troy).

In German and Old Norse, chiefly as "fortress, castle;" in Gothic, "town, civic community." Meaning shifted M.E. from "fortress," to "fortified town," to simply "town" (especially one possessing municipal organization or sending representatives to Parliament). In U.S. (originally Pennsylvania, 1718) often an incorporated town; in Alaska, however, it is the equivalent of a county. The Scottish form is burgh. The O.E. dative singular byrig is found in many place names as -bury.

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

And there was a town already in 1180 AD.

[keithisco]

Abramelin, on 28 February 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

"Burgh" too modern?

borough
O.E. burg, burh "a dwelling or dwellings within a fortified enclosure," from P.Gmc. *burgs "hill fort, fortress" (cf. O.Fris. burg "castle," O.N. borg "wall, castle," O.H.G. burg, buruc "fortified place, citadel," Ger. Burg "castle," Goth. baurgs "city"), from PIE *bhrgh "high," with derivatives referring to hills, hill forts, fortified elevations (cf. O.E. beorg "hill," Welsh bera "stack, pyramid," Skt. bhrant-, Avestan brzant- "high," Gk. Pergamos, name of the citadel of Troy).

In German and Old Norse, chiefly as "fortress, castle;" in Gothic, "town, civic community." Meaning shifted M.E. from "fortress," to "fortified town," to simply "town" (especially one possessing municipal organization or sending representatives to Parliament). In U.S. (originally Pennsylvania, 1718) often an incorporated town; in Alaska, however, it is the equivalent of a county. The Scottish form is burgh. The O.E. dative singular byrig is found in many place names as -bury.

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

And there was a town already in 1180 AD.

Not trying to be contrary but I can find no reference to a town of Avebury in 1180ad. Plenty of references to farms and smallholdings in the area but nothing that constituted a town or hamlet in the immediate vicinity of the circle.The "Town" of Avebury was a 17th century construct.

Whilst I have no doubt that the suffix "-bury" was an addition at a later time, to meet certain taxable requirements, and privileges for its citizens, in its (slightly) more original form it does not seem to equate with the etymology you have described in your post.

[Abramelin]

keithisco, on 28 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Not trying to be contrary but I can find no reference to a town of Avebury in 1180ad. Plenty of references to farms and smallholdings in the area but nothing that constituted a town or hamlet in the immediate vicinity of the circle.The "Town" of Avebury was a 17th century construct.

Whilst I have no doubt that the suffix "-bury" was an addition at a later time, to meet certain taxable requirements, and privileges for its citizens, in its (slightly) more original form it does not seem to equate with the etymology you have described in your post.

I think your point would be stronger if you could show Iberian/Basque etymology for other placenames in the neighbourhood of Avebury.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2012 - 05:34 PM.