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Trojans were Basques?


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#31    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:45 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 February 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

And the flip-side of this is that comparative mythology and lego-linguistics isn't even a beginning. As to your being here to discuss "what could have been", it's rarely put across that way but more often than not presented as if it's (somehow) a foregone conclusion, with as much or more validity than what the actual evidence shows. It's not and most people I know, other than you, apparently understand the distinction.

cormac
No, you are wrong, I started this topic saying I was asking 2 questions. I did not put forth this topic as a foregone conclusion, but based on what I can see, it could possibly have happened and will try and show the points that might validate it.

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#32    cormac mac airt

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:44 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 11 February 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

No, you are wrong, I started this topic saying I was asking 2 questions. I did not put forth this topic as a foregone conclusion, but based on what I can see, it could possibly have happened and will try and show the points that might validate it.

And you've been shown evidence, particularly genetic evidence, that runs contrary to both questions. Both currently and in the past and you choose to ignore what's known in favor of what you'd like to be true. The first question I answered in a previous post, the second one has been pretty much answered in past posts dealing with mtDNA and Y Chromosome migrational patterns in Europe which started east to west. If anything, for the ancient Portugese to be responsible for anything we'd see a back-migration of haplogroups in the genetic record. However, the evidence does not show that.

As to foregone conclusions, have you actually read what you type in your own past posts. Yes, you do have a habit of presenting things as a foregone conclusion. This root-word/word sounds like that root-word/word so they "must" be related. A deity from one culture has similarities to one from another culture, so they "must" be one and the same. This, that or some other ancient writer said something was a fact, so it "must" be true.  :rolleyes:  It's no wonder that many don't take you seriously and I'm by far not the only one.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#33    The Puzzler

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:58 PM

The original inhabitants of Sicily were three defined groups of the Ancient peoples of Italy. The most prominent and by far the earliest of these was the Sicani, who according to Thucydides arrived from the Iberian Peninsula (perhaps Catalonia).[10][11] Important historical evidence has been discovered in the form of cave drawings by the Sicani, dated from the end of the Pleistocene epoch, around 8000 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily

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#34    Oniomancer

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 12:19 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 09 February 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Sorry, here's the link for that picture, although I have it in a book I own as well. Fair enough, still, those Brazilians, who are Portugese seem very 'sexual' or such, like it is part of their culture.
http://www.art.com/p...&tkid=15034199

Sorry, got sidetracked.

Thing is, Portugal is a staunchly catholic country. That doesn't seem like something "nice" catholic girls would do, especially in that time period. Likewise Brazil's attitudes are more modern in origin. I'd sooner think those were working girls and therefore not representative of common behavior.

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#35    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 04:30 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 12 February 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

Sorry, got sidetracked.

Thing is, Portugal is a staunchly catholic country. That doesn't seem like something "nice" catholic girls would do, especially in that time period. Likewise Brazil's attitudes are more modern in origin. I'd sooner think those were working girls and therefore not representative of common behavior.
Possibly, yes.

I still think Basques (and Iberian, who imo would have spoken some kind of Basque to have that name of the country 'Iberia', which imo is simply 'land of rivers' in Basque) - though are a typical Mediterranean look that may have spread throughout, the ancient Cretan look particularly.

I mentioned the Sicani in my above post to cormac, I'll just add some more info to that for interest:

The Sicani are thought to be the oldest inhabitants of Sicily with a recorded name. The Greek historian Thucydides[1] claimed they immigrated from the Iberian Peninsula (perhaps Catalonia)[2][3] driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus, drawing his information from the Sicilian historian Antiochus of Syracuse, but his basis for saying this is unknown.[4] Important historical evidence has been discovered in the form of cave drawings by the Sicani, dated from the end of the Pleistocene Epoch, around 8000 BC[5] and this is probably the reason why Timaeus of Tauromenium considered them as aboriginal.[6] Some modern scholars think the Sicani may have been an Illyrian tribe that gained control of areas previously inhabited by native tribes.[7] Archaeological excavation has shown that they had received some Mycenean influence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicani

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#36    cormac mac airt

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 05:26 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 12 February 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Possibly, yes.

I still think Basques (and Iberian, who imo would have spoken some kind of Basque to have that name of the country 'Iberia', which imo is simply 'land of rivers' in Basque) - though are a typical Mediterranean look that may have spread throughout, the ancient Cretan look particularly.

I mentioned the Sicani in my above post to cormac, I'll just add some more info to that for interest:

The Sicani are thought to be the oldest inhabitants of Sicily with a recorded name. The Greek historian Thucydides[1] claimed they immigrated from the Iberian Peninsula (perhaps Catalonia)[2][3] driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus, drawing his information from the Sicilian historian Antiochus of Syracuse, but his basis for saying this is unknown.[4] Important historical evidence has been discovered in the form of cave drawings by the Sicani, dated from the end of the Pleistocene Epoch, around 8000 BC[5] and this is probably the reason why Timaeus of Tauromenium considered them as aboriginal.[6] Some modern scholars think the Sicani may have been an Illyrian tribe that gained control of areas previously inhabited by native tribes.[7] Archaeological excavation has shown that they had received some Mycenean influence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicani

And it doesn't support your speculation on any group of Iberians being the origins of the Sicani or of any other peoples of the Mediterranean. As noted even in your Wiki link, the Sicani can be reasonably dated to 8000 BC. But at the same time the known genetic group in Iberia, namely mtDNA Haplogroup V (dated c.13,600) is not in evidence as a point of origin for the early inhabitants of Sicily (the three major genetic lines there being H, J and U). Nor is the other line in Iberia (namely R1b1a2a1a1b which dates to c.6630 BC) found in Sicily and it's actually younger than the haplogroups already known to exist in the area.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 12 February 2012 - 05:28 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#37    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:04 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 12 February 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

And it doesn't support your speculation on any group of Iberians being the origins of the Sicani or of any other peoples of the Mediterranean. As noted even in your Wiki link, the Sicani can be reasonably dated to 8000 BC. But at the same time the known genetic group in Iberia, namely mtDNA Haplogroup V (dated c.13,600) is not in evidence as a point of origin for the early inhabitants of Sicily (the three major genetic lines there being H, J and U). Nor is the other line in Iberia (namely R1b1a2a1a1b which dates to c.6630 BC) found in Sicily and it's actually younger than the haplogroups already known to exist in the area.

cormac
Hmm, this seems to refute that.

This is quite useful as a reference for those interested in E-M35 and its many subclades.

A quick comment on p. 53 where Sicily is discussed and the prevalence of R1b and I1 in the West is mentioned in the context of Phoenicians who settled in West Sicily.

Haplogroup I1 is probably to a large degree due to the Normans whose capital was in Palermo (NW Sicily). R1b on the other hand may have been added by the Normans, but may also be due to the pre-Greek populations of Sicily, such as the Sicani who were (after Herodotus) of Iberian origin.

Journal of Genetic Genealogy Volume 5, Number 1, Spring, 2009


Edit - Add link: http://dienekes.blog...haplogroup.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a comment on the same page:

My major caveat to a Neolithic flow of West Asian lineages, specifically to Iberia, is the apparent lack of West Asian mtDNA in Neolithic samples from Portugal (the only novel clade found is V, while U(xU5), probably U6, is found both in Epipaleolithic and Neolithic populations at similar levels (Chandlers, Sykes and Zilhao 2005). And Portugal is the area most affected (after the already commented NW) by relatively high presence of haplogroup E1b1b1, in both the Greek and North African versions, within Iberia.

Without this ancient mtDNA data I'd be really inclined to think with you of a Cardial founder effect for West Iberian E1b1b1. Guess it could still be argued but the total lack of anything that is not H, V or U(xK) in the Neolithic Portugese sample of 23 individuals casts a doubt on any East Mediterranean gene flow at that time, IMO.


Edited by The Puzzler, 12 February 2012 - 06:13 AM.

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#38    cormac mac airt

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 06:18 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 12 February 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Hmm, this seems to refute that.

This is quite useful as a reference for those interested in E-M35 and its many subclades.

A quick comment on p. 53 where Sicily is discussed and the prevalence of R1b and I1 in the West is mentioned in the context of Phoenicians who settled in West Sicily.

Haplogroup I1 is probably to a large degree due to the Normans whose capital was in Palermo (NW Sicily). R1b on the other hand may have been added by the Normans, but may also be due to the pre-Greek populations of Sicily, such as the Sicani who were (after Herodotus) of Iberian origin.

Journal of Genetic Genealogy Volume 5, Number 1, Spring, 2009


Edit - Add link: http://dienekes.blog...haplogroup.html

No, it doesn't refute anything. R1b, which originated in the east is the parent group of R1b1a2a1a1b. The latter of which is Iberian in origin. E-M35, also known as E1b1b1, is African in origin which also has nothing to do with Iberia.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#39    The Puzzler

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:04 AM

Stephen Oppenheimer is a believer in R1b origin in Iberia.

Stephen Oppenheimer also deals with this haplogroup in his book Origins of the British, giving the R1b clan patriarch the Basque name "Ruisko" in honour of what he thinks is the Iberian origin of R1b.
http://en.wikipedia....roup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

He thinks that Britain is showing that it was inhabited by the Iberians before the later Anglo-Saxon and Celtic arrivals. Which makes sense considering the megaliths built there are like the ones all throughout Southern France and Spain - that is my debate too, the megalithic builders of Europe also built the megalithic temples throughout the Mediterranean, which is why I say Malta also.

Synthesizing the genetic evidence with linguistics, archaeology and the historical record, Oppenheimer shows how long-term Scandinavian trade and immigration contributed the remaining quarter – mostly before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. These migrations may have introduced the earliest forms of English.

And what of the Celts we know – the Irish, Scots and Welsh? Scholars have traditionally placed their origins in Iron Age Central Europe, but Oppenheimer’s new data clearly show that the Welsh, Irish and other Atlanticfringe peoples derive from Ice Age refuges in the Basque country and Spain. They came by an Atlantic coastal route many thousands of years ago, though the Celtic languages we know of today were brought in by later migrations, following the same route, during Neolithic times.

Stephen Oppenheimer shows us, in his meticulous analysis, that there is in truth a deep genetic line dividing the English from the rest of the British people but that, fascinatingly, the roots of that separate identity go back not 1500 years but 6,000. The real story of the British peoples is one of extraordinary continuity and enduring lineage that has survived all onslaughts.

'Oppenheimer calls his book "a genetic detective story". It is. Pre-Roman language in western Europe was a locked-room mystery - until someone looked for the key.'
Aubrey Burl, Archaeologist & author on megalithic monuments

http://www.bradshawf...the_british.php

Maybe the older lines of R1b are yet to found in Europe or the people that carried it are non existant to find now. The overlaying IE speakers took over alot of Europe. They include Celts imo, from Thrace and the Black Sea that came into the areas of the ancient Basques and Iberians.

You know why the English Royals are said to be Trojan? From Brutus? Maybe, how about from Eleanor of Aquitaine, who married Henry, since Aquitani were originally Iberian Basques as well and as I said, they were Trojans... :w00t:

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#40    cormac mac airt

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:23 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 12 February 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Stephen Oppenheimer is a believer in R1b origin in Iberia.

Stephen Oppenheimer also deals with this haplogroup in his book Origins of the British, giving the R1b clan patriarch the Basque name "Ruisko" in honour of what he thinks is the Iberian origin of R1b.
http://en.wikipedia....roup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

He thinks that Britain is showing that it was inhabited by the Iberians before the later Anglo-Saxon and Celtic arrivals. Which makes sense considering the megaliths built there are like the ones all throughout Southern France and Spain - that is my debate too, the megalithic builders of Europe also built the megalithic temples throughout the Mediterranean, which is why I say Malta also.

Synthesizing the genetic evidence with linguistics, archaeology and the historical record, Oppenheimer shows how long-term Scandinavian trade and immigration contributed the remaining quarter – mostly before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. These migrations may have introduced the earliest forms of English.

And what of the Celts we know – the Irish, Scots and Welsh? Scholars have traditionally placed their origins in Iron Age Central Europe, but Oppenheimer’s new data clearly show that the Welsh, Irish and other Atlanticfringe peoples derive from Ice Age refuges in the Basque country and Spain. They came by an Atlantic coastal route many thousands of years ago, though the Celtic languages we know of today were brought in by later migrations, following the same route, during Neolithic times.

Stephen Oppenheimer shows us, in his meticulous analysis, that there is in truth a deep genetic line dividing the English from the rest of the British people but that, fascinatingly, the roots of that separate identity go back not 1500 years but 6,000. The real story of the British peoples is one of extraordinary continuity and enduring lineage that has survived all onslaughts.

'Oppenheimer calls his book "a genetic detective story". It is. Pre-Roman language in western Europe was a locked-room mystery - until someone looked for the key.'
Aubrey Burl, Archaeologist & author on megalithic monuments

http://www.bradshawf...the_british.php

Maybe the older lines of R1b are yet to found in Europe or the people that carried it are non existant to find now. The overlaying IE speakers took over alot of Europe. They include Celts imo, from Thrace and the Black Sea that came into the areas of the ancient Basques and Iberians.

You know why the English Royals are said to be Trojan? From Brutus? Maybe, how about from Eleanor of Aquitaine, who married Henry, since Aquitani were originally Iberian Basques as well and as I said, they were Trojans... :w00t:

I have and have read Stephen Oppenheimer's book Origins of the British. And while it is true that a subgroup of R1b, namely R1b1a2a1a1b, originated in Iberia, the parent group R1b DID NOT. So from that perspective he was wrong. R1b-M269 actually entered Europe c.7000 BC through Anatolia.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#41    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:04 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 12 February 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

And it doesn't support your speculation on any group of Iberians being the origins of the Sicani or of any other peoples of the Mediterranean. As noted even in your Wiki link, the Sicani can be reasonably dated to 8000 BC. But at the same time the known genetic group in Iberia, namely mtDNA Haplogroup V (dated c.13,600) is not in evidence as a point of origin for the early inhabitants of Sicily (the three major genetic lines there being H, J and U). Nor is the other line in Iberia (namely R1b1a2a1a1b which dates to c.6630 BC) found in Sicily and it's actually younger than the haplogroups already known to exist in the area.

cormac
It doesn't seem quite so simple to me.

This article talks about V and it not being present in the older Basque samples, but then about genetic drift at the time of 10,000-8,000BC.
The article is basically comparing this quote: It is found with particularly high concentrations in the Saami People of northern Scandinavia, as well as the Basque people (10.4%) [1] and somewhat higher among the isolated Pasiegos in nearby Cantabria. It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia.[3] The highest levels are in Scandinavian and Western and North African populations. It is spread at varying low levels across Europe and smaller portions of West and Central Asia.
http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_V_(mtDNA)

mtDNA sequence variation was studied in 121 dental samples from four Basque prehistoric sites, by high-resolution RFLP analysis. The results of this study are corroborated by (1) parallel analysis of 92 bone samples, (2) the use of controls during extraction and amplification, and (3) typing by both positive and negative restriction of the linked sites that characterize each haplogroup. The absence of haplogroup V in the prehistoric samples analyzed conflicts with the hypothesis proposed by Torroni et al., in which haplogroup V is considered as an mtDNA marker for a major Paleolithic population expansion from southwestern Europe, occurring approximately 10,000-15,000 years before the present (YBP). Our samples from the Basque Country provide a valuable tool for checking the previous hypothesis, which is based on genetic data from present-day populations. In light of the available data, the most realistic scenario to explain the origin and distribution of haplogroup V suggests that the mutation defining that haplogroup (4577 NlaIII) appeared at a time when the effective population size was small enough to allow genetic drift to act-and that such drift is responsible for the heterogeneity observed in Basques, with regard to the frequency of haplogroup V (0%-20%). This is compatible with the attributed date for the origin of that mutation (10,000-15, 000 YBP), because during the postglacial period (the Mesolithic, approximately 11,000 YBP) there was a major demographic change in the Basque Country, which minimized the effect of genetic drift. This interpretation does not rely on migratory movements to explain the distribution of haplogroup V in present-day Indo-European populations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10364533

Maybe genetic drift was at work elsewhere too.

This article explains the tests they did to get the results mentioned in the above paper:

This study provides a more complete characterization of the mitochondrial genome variability of the Basques, including data on the hypervariable segment HVII of the D-loop region, which remains relatively unknown. To that end, genomic DNA from 55 healthy men living in the Arratia Valley (Biscay province) and the Goiherri region (Guipúzcoa province) was examined by direct sequencing. Three-generation pedigree charts were compiled to ensure the collection from autochthonous individuals. The most notable findings emerging from the analysis of haplogroup composition are: (i) lack of U8a mitochondrial lineage, a rare subhaplogroup recently identified in Basques and proposed as a Paleolithic marker, (ii) low frequency of haplogroup V, which conflicts with results of earlier analyses describing high frequencies in southwestern Europe, and (iii) high frequency of haplogroup J, especially subhaplogroups J1c1 and J2a. The frequency of haplogroup J does not coincide with previous mtDNA studies in present-day Basques, but is congruent with frequencies found in prehistoric and historic Basque populations. In explaining divergence in haplogroup composition between modern Basque samples, we hypothesized spatial heterogeneity promoted by population fragmentation due to extreme limitation of dispersal opportunities during the Pleistocene glaciations. Similarities between extinct and extant Basque populations as for the high frequency of lineage J, as well as the abundance of this haplogroup in northern Spain endorse a shift in the focus of attention of mtDNA analysts. A refined dissection of haplogroup J might provide more solid evidence about the process of postglacial recolonization of Europe, and thus about the shaping of the European gene pool.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18172868



I really don't want to bog the topic down with genetics though, I think they are not as conclusive or black and white as they seem and wouldn't rely on them to disprove anything quite frankly.

Edited by The Puzzler, 13 February 2012 - 03:04 AM.

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#42    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:20 AM

Malta:
The Sicani were the only tribe known to have inhabited the island at this time[30][31] and are generally regarded as related to the Iberians.[32] The population on Malta grew cereals, raised domestic livestock and, in common with other ancient Mediterranean cultures, worshiped a fertility figure represented in Maltese prehistoric artifacts as exhibiting the large proportions seen in similar statuettes, including the Venus of Willendorf.

Pottery from the Għar Dalam phase is similar to pottery found in Agrigento, Sicily. A culture of megalithic temple builders then either supplanted or arose from this early period. During 3500 BC, these people built some of the oldest existing, free-standing structures in the world in the form of the megalithic Ġgantija temples on Gozo;[33] other early temples include those at Ħaġar Qim and Mnajdra.[34][35][36]

The temples have a distinctive architecture, typically a complex trefoil design, and were used from 4000–2500 BC. Animal bones and a knife found behind a removable altar stone suggest that temple rituals included animal sacrifice. Tentative information suggests that the sacrifices were made to the goddess of fertility, whose statue is now in the National Museum of Archaeology in Valletta.[37] The culture apparently disappeared from the Maltese Islands around 2500 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Iberians, although living in Spain, were different to Basques but the time frame I am working with 5000-4000BC is open to the suggestion they may have been part of the same group of pre-IE speaking people as Basques and all these Atlantic people were tied in as one unit according to Barry Cunliffe's book.
The Iberian language, like the rest of paleohispanic languages, became extinct by the 1st to 2nd centuries AD, after being gradually replaced by Latin. Iberian seems to be a language isolate. It is generally considered as a non-Indo-European language (although a 1978 study found many similarities between Iberian and the Italic languages[7]). Links with other languages have been claimed, but they have not been demonstrated. One such proposed link was with the Basque language, but this theory is also disputed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians

Iberian origins are not clear; however, there are three theories on the subject:

One theory suggests that they arrived in Spain in the Neolithic period, with their arrival being dated from as early as the fifth millennium BC to the third millennium BC (see Cardium culture). Most scholars adhering to this theory believe from archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence that the Iberians came from a region farther east in the Mediterranean. Others have suggested that they may have originated in North Africa. This portion of the theory is supported by an observation of C. Michael Hogan who points out similarities between Chalcolithic artefacts in Iberia with Neolithic pottery in parts of Morocco.[2] The Iberians would have initially settled along the eastern coast of Spain, and then possibly spread throughout the rest of the Iberian Peninsula.[3][4][5]
An alternative theory states that they were part of the original inhabitants of Western Europe and the creators of or heirs to the area's extensive megalithic culture, a theory possibly supported by genetic studies. The Iberians would therefore be similar to the populations subdued by the Celts in the first millennium BC in Ireland, Britain and France.[citation needed]
Another theory states that Iberians were descendants of the Urnfield people that lived in the same area (Languedoc, Catalunya, Province of Castellón) some centuries before the rise of the Iberian civilization. It is interesting to note that Iberians and Urnfield people had similar funeral customs (cremation).[citation needed]
Celts crossed the Pyrenees into Spain in two major migrations in the ninth and the 7th centuries BC.


Edited by The Puzzler, 13 February 2012 - 04:21 AM.

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#43    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:00 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 13 February 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

It doesn't seem quite so simple to me.

This article talks about V and it not being present in the older Basque samples, but then about genetic drift at the time of 10,000-8,000BC.
The article is basically comparing this quote: It is found with particularly high concentrations in the Saami People of northern Scandinavia, as well as the Basque people (10.4%) [1] and somewhat higher among the isolated Pasiegos in nearby Cantabria. It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia.[3] The highest levels are in Scandinavian and Western and North African populations. It is spread at varying low levels across Europe and smaller portions of West and Central Asia.
http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_V_(mtDNA)

mtDNA sequence variation was studied in 121 dental samples from four Basque prehistoric sites, by high-resolution RFLP analysis. The results of this study are corroborated by (1) parallel analysis of 92 bone samples, (2) the use of controls during extraction and amplification, and (3) typing by both positive and negative restriction of the linked sites that characterize each haplogroup. The absence of haplogroup V in the prehistoric samples analyzed conflicts with the hypothesis proposed by Torroni et al., in which haplogroup V is considered as an mtDNA marker for a major Paleolithic population expansion from southwestern Europe, occurring approximately 10,000-15,000 years before the present (YBP). Our samples from the Basque Country provide a valuable tool for checking the previous hypothesis, which is based on genetic data from present-day populations. In light of the available data, the most realistic scenario to explain the origin and distribution of haplogroup V suggests that the mutation defining that haplogroup (4577 NlaIII) appeared at a time when the effective population size was small enough to allow genetic drift to act-and that such drift is responsible for the heterogeneity observed in Basques, with regard to the frequency of haplogroup V (0%-20%). This is compatible with the attributed date for the origin of that mutation (10,000-15, 000 YBP), because during the postglacial period (the Mesolithic, approximately 11,000 YBP) there was a major demographic change in the Basque Country, which minimized the effect of genetic drift. This interpretation does not rely on migratory movements to explain the distribution of haplogroup V in present-day Indo-European populations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10364533

Maybe genetic drift was at work elsewhere too.

This article explains the tests they did to get the results mentioned in the above paper:

This study provides a more complete characterization of the mitochondrial genome variability of the Basques, including data on the hypervariable segment HVII of the D-loop region, which remains relatively unknown. To that end, genomic DNA from 55 healthy men living in the Arratia Valley (Biscay province) and the Goiherri region (Guipúzcoa province) was examined by direct sequencing. Three-generation pedigree charts were compiled to ensure the collection from autochthonous individuals. The most notable findings emerging from the analysis of haplogroup composition are: (i) lack of U8a mitochondrial lineage, a rare subhaplogroup recently identified in Basques and proposed as a Paleolithic marker, (ii) low frequency of haplogroup V, which conflicts with results of earlier analyses describing high frequencies in southwestern Europe, and (iii) high frequency of haplogroup J, especially subhaplogroups J1c1 and J2a. The frequency of haplogroup J does not coincide with previous mtDNA studies in present-day Basques, but is congruent with frequencies found in prehistoric and historic Basque populations. In explaining divergence in haplogroup composition between modern Basque samples, we hypothesized spatial heterogeneity promoted by population fragmentation due to extreme limitation of dispersal opportunities during the Pleistocene glaciations. Similarities between extinct and extant Basque populations as for the high frequency of lineage J, as well as the abundance of this haplogroup in northern Spain endorse a shift in the focus of attention of mtDNA analysts. A refined dissection of haplogroup J might provide more solid evidence about the process of postglacial recolonization of Europe, and thus about the shaping of the European gene pool.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18172868



I really don't want to bog the topic down with genetics though, I think they are not as conclusive or black and white as they seem and wouldn't rely on them to disprove anything quite frankly.

Your last link effectively voids the first two, showing that:

1) U8a isn't in evidence so cannot be used to claim a paleolithic origin for the Basques.

2) A low frequency of Haplogroup V, which means it IS NOT the origin of the Basques.

3) A high frequency of J1c1 and J2a, NEITHER of which originate in Iberia.

NONE of which shows ancient Portugese as having any significant influence on the population of the Mediterranean.

There's also this from a recent article:

Quote

The first time haplogroup V was proposed as a sign of
post-glacial human recolonization of Northern Europe
from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge (Torroni et al., 1998),
V frequencies in Basques (20%) and Catalans (24%) were
found to be surprisingly high. However, this should now
be considered as due to sampling errors because when
sample sizes were increased in posterior analyses, V
frequencies in the Basque Country dropped to 12.4%
(Torroni et al., 2001) and 10.2% (Maca-Meyer et al., 2003).
In this study, haplogroup V frequencies in the Cornice
are at their peak in Cantabria (19%), dropping westwards
to 5.6% in Asturias and to 3.8% in Galicia. In the Basque
Country, haplogroup V frequencies ranged from 11.7% in
Guipuzcoa to 5.9% in the Alava province. Finally, in a
recent survey (Alvarez-Iglesias et al., 2009), V frequencies
for Catalonia were estimated at around only 3%.
Diversity values for V are significantly higher in Southern
Iberia than in the Cornice (Po0.05). Excluding
Scandinavia, the lowest diversities are found in Northern
Africa and the Iberian northeast.
The post-glacial refuge expansion of V from a Franco-
Cantabrian refugee hypothesis did not receive unanimous
acceptation. It was first questioned on the basis of a
lack of V representatives in ancient Basque samples
(Izagirre and de la Rua, 1999) and its later presence in a
historical sample from Alava (Alzualde et al., 2005), and
second, for a lack of any directional gene-flow process of
V along the proposed north-west European transects
(Simoni et al., 2000). It was suggested that perhaps the
Cantabrian area was a more probable expansion centre
than the Basque Country (Maca-Meyer et al., 2003).
However, the lower diversity values found here for this
putative area compared with Southern Iberia also
weaken this alternative. Furthermore, a recent mtDNA
study of French populations included in the hypothetical
last glacial maximum refuge stand out by their shortage
of V lineages (Dubut et al., 2004).

Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge

The recent article effectively voids the idea of a Franco-Cantabrian refuge and any significant influence of Hg V on same.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#44    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:11 AM

More reading gets me thinking a connection from the Cantabrian people and Etruscans exist. Sacrificed horses to an unnamed God of War, that's very reminiscent of the Trojan Horse too.
Literary and ephigraphic evidence confirms that, like their Gallaeci and Astures neighbours’, the Cantabri were polytheistic, worshipping a complex, vast pantheon of male and female Indo-European deities in sacred oak or pine woods, mountains, water-courses and small rural sanctuaries.

Druidism does not appear to have been practiced by the Cantabri, though there is enough evidence for the existence of a organized priestly class who performed elaborated rites, which included ritual steam baths, festive dances, oracles, divination, human and animal sacrifices. To this respect, Strabo[5] mentions that the peoples of the north-west sacrificed horses to an unnamed God of War, and both Horace[6] and Silius Italicus[7] added that the Concani had the custom of drinking the horse’s blood at the ceremony.


Lots of nice things there...
According to Pliny the Elder[8] Cantabria also contained gold, silver, tin, lead and iron mines, as well as magnetite and amber, but little is known about them; Strabo[9] also mentions salt extraction in mines, such as the ones existent around Cabezón de la Sal

They comprised eleven or so tribes whose tribal names betray Ligurian, Aquitanian, Indo-Aryan, Celtiberian and Gallic affiliation – the Avarigines, Blendii, Plentusii, Camarici (or Tamarici), Concani, Coniaci, Moroecani, Noegi, Orgenomesci, Salaeni, Vadinienses and the Velliques.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabri

detailed analysis of place-names in ancient Cantabria shows a strong Celtic element along with an almost equally strong "Para-Celtic" element (both Indo-European) and thus disproves the idea of a substantial pre-Indo-European or Basque presence in the region.[2] This supports the earlier view that Jürgen Untermann considered the most plausible, coinciding with archaeological evidence put forward by Ruiz-Galvez in 1998 [3], that the Celtic settlement of the Iberian Peninsula was made by people who arrived via the Atlantic Ocean in an area between French Brittany and the mouth of the River Garona, finally settling along the Galician and Cantabrian coast.
The Celts appear to have landed in this area coming in from the Atlantic it says - from where I wonder. Northern Europe maybe.

Posted Image
http://en.wikipedia....ria_200_BCE.PNG


The Celtiberians were Celtic-speaking people of the Iberian Peninsula in the final centuries BC. These tribes or nation spoke the Celtiberian language.[1][2]

The term Celtiberi appears in accounts by Diodorus Siculus,[3] Appian[4] and Martial[5] who recognized intermarriage between Celts and Iberians after a period of continuous warfare, though Barry Cunliffe says 'this has the ring of guesswork about it';[6] Strabo just saw the Celtiberians as Celts recognising them as a branch of the Celti.[1] Extant tribal names include the Arevaci, Belli, Titti, and Lusones.Pliny considers the Celts from Iberia to have migrated from Lusitania's Celtici which he appears to regard as the original seat of the whole Celtic population of the Iberian peninsula including the Celtiberians, on the ground of an identity of sacred rites, language, and names of cities.


It appears to Pliny that the Celts came into the whole of Iberia through Celtica, in Lusitania (Portugal area). See map. So, possibly the Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula through Cantabri, to which they kept going south and colonised Celtica as well, then crept east all through Iberia/Spain.

I doubt this was earlier than 1200-1000BC at max.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#45    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:14 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 13 February 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

.

3) A high frequency of J1c1 and J2a, NEITHER of which originate in Iberia.

cormac
Who said it has to originate in Iberia?

In an mmm bop it's gone...




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