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Trojans were Basques?


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#331    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:57 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 April 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Some writers have gone even further, e.g. Bengtson and Ruhlen, proposing Basque as a major element in a Proto-World language. This extraordinary hypothesis is based of the notion that remnants of an ancestral language of all mankind are still discernable in languages of today, and the comparative analysis of cognate lexical items (e.g. bone, dog, hair), all of which bear a resemblance to Basque words with related meanings.

Maybe you missed this that I posted.

:sleepy:

Yep, that's from the link I posted.

Here, some more from that link:

A prerequisite of the theory is that the Indo-Europeans arrived in a linguistically homogenous Europe, something many researchers find hard to swallow.

(..)

This extraordinary hypothesis is based of the notion that remnants of an ancestral language of all mankind are still discernable in languages of today, and the comparative analysis of cognate lexical items (e.g. bone, dog, hair), all of which bear a resemblance to Basque words with related meanings. The theory has found little favor with the linguistic establishment
.

http://folk.uio.no/p...ue_mystery.html

I find something, I post about it, then I think about it for a little bit more, and then I have doubts about it, despite the fact I liked it just before.

You should do that more often, heh.

No offense, Puzz, I like what you are doing, but we are just not on the same track.

I post about whatever I may find. If it contradicts what I was convinced of earlier, bad luck for me.

This is a process of finding out about the truth.

I have NO agenda at all.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 April 2012 - 06:00 PM.


#332    The Puzzler

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:04 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 April 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Yep, that's from the link I posted.

Here, some more from that link:

A prerequisite of the theory is that the Indo-Europeans arrived in a linguistically homogenous Europe, something many researchers find hard to swallow.

(..)

This extraordinary hypothesis is based of the notion that remnants of an ancestral language of all mankind are still discernable in languages of today, and the comparative analysis of cognate lexical items (e.g. bone, dog, hair), all of which bear a resemblance to Basque words with related meanings. The theory has found little favor with the linguistic establishment
.

http://folk.uio.no/p...ue_mystery.html

I find something, I post about it, then I think about it for a little bit more, and then I have doubts about it, despite the fact I liked it just before.

You should do that more often, heh.

No offense, Puzz, I like what you are doing, but we are just not on the same track.

I post about whatever I may find. If it contradicts what I was convinced of earlier, bad luck for me.

This is a process of finding out about the truth.

I have NO agenda at all.

.
I actually reinforced it by adding these bits:

Both Hurrian and Sumerian are ergative, as are some modern languages such as Basque.
http://homepages.mat...onan/ergativity

That's one of the reasons when reviewing documents written in the ancient Sumerian language, "you would swear you are reading Basque," said Joxe Mallea-Olaetxe, adjunct professor for the Center for Basque Studies at the University of Nevada, Reno.
http://s6.zetaboards...topic/528379/1/

Some scholars have suggested a macrofamily of languages that includes Basque, Sumerian, and Sino-Caucasian.
http://www.ncrhi.net/mission.html

Of course linguists would find little favour with it, they'd have to redo 100 years of work, which they got wrong. Bed for me.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#333    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:14 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 April 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I actually reinforced it by adding these bits:

Both Hurrian and Sumerian are ergative, as are some modern languages such as Basque.
http://homepages.mat...onan/ergativity

That's one of the reasons when reviewing documents written in the ancient Sumerian language, "you would swear you are reading Basque," said Joxe Mallea-Olaetxe, adjunct professor for the Center for Basque Studies at the University of Nevada, Reno.
http://s6.zetaboards...topic/528379/1/

Some scholars have suggested a macrofamily of languages that includes Basque, Sumerian, and Sino-Caucasian.
http://www.ncrhi.net/mission.html

Of course linguists would find little favour with it, they'd have to redo 100 years of work, which they got wrong. Bed for me.

How many years of linguistic research did YOU "redo" ?

Not one single year, and I am convinced of that.

Fringe sites have 'all the answers', yeah.

And that is because they never took the trouble to study the subject they have crazy ideas about.

It's much more easy to dream of possibilities and fantasies than to lit up a couple of candles late at night, and STUDY the fkg subject by reading BOOKS.

(For the youngsters: books are objects made out of a bound collection of papers with a lot of black ink scriblings upon it. Idiots that you are.)

,

Edited by Abramelin, 07 April 2012 - 06:28 PM.


#334    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:07 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 April 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

I'll answer with a nice round up of who the Basque people are to me...

There is no shortage of theories that seek to explain the origins of the Basques, western Europe's mystery people. They range from the incredulous (that Basques are the survivors the lost people of Atlantis, the fabled land that sunk into the sea) the mythical (Basques are descendants of Aitor, the first Basque man) the pre-historic (Basques descended from the Stone Age, proponents pointing to Basque words for tools that all incorporate stone) the expansive (purported links with other distant languages) to the probable (Basques are descendants of the Iberians, people who once inhabited Spain).

Outside the city of Gernika, one can find the caves of Santimamine which contains the remnants of a culture 20,000 years ago.   Other archeological finds suggest that the present Basque homeland contained human communities as long as 70,000 years ago.  What is unknown, however, is if they were ancestors of the Basques.  The debate is whether the Basque populace and culture developed--in situ--there in the Pyrenees or if they migrated into their present homeland.  Those skeptical of the tens of thousands of years of a Basque presence place their arrival sometime between 5,000 and 3,000 B.C.  Nonetheless, even these conservative estimates place the Basques in western Europe long before the migrations of the second millennium B.C. that established the ethnic composition of modern Europe.  Therefore, what is certain is that the Basques are the oldest indigenous people of western Europe.

Where are they from?  Who are the Basques?  Both are questions that many Basques are asked.  Neither is easy to answer  but there has been no shortage of efforts.  

Philippe Veyrin, a French student of Basque origins, grouped explanations into three broad categories:  theological, the metaphysical and scientific theories.  Leading writers from the theological age--predominately in the late 18th, and early 19th centuries--put forth claims that Basque was the original language spoken prior to the linguistic fragmentation resulting from the Tower of Babel. (The biblical story in which God thwarts the human effort to build a high tower to reach the heavens.  To disrupt the project, God imposed a multitude of languages on the workers so that they could not communicate with one another).  One attempt to substantiate this claim was that of the Abbe Diharce de Bidassouet who based his claim on some inventive etymological work.  Gipuzkoa (one of the seven provinces) represented Gu-iz-puzk-ko-ak, or literally those whose language was broken.  Meanwhile, Manuel de Larramendi, who wrote the first Basque grammar book, was not as assertive and instead assigned Basque a place among the seventy-five languages that followed the collapse of the Tower of Babel.  Finally, another commentator, Abbe Dominique Lahetjuzan claimed that Basque proved the story of Genesis.  Apparantely the originality of Basque verified the divinity of Genesis.   Unfortunately, these and other explanations offered little solid evidence for their claims and instead relied on questionable etymologies and assumptions.  But for a time, these claims were taken seriously. The Gipuzkoan priest Erroa petitioned the Chapter of the Cathedral of Pamplona, which after months of deliberations, accepted his theory that Basque was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden.

---- So do you know anything more now after reading this article?  Unfortunately, there are very few certainties when discussing the Basques.  They remain Europe's "mystery people" because the origin of the people and their language remains lost to us.  While there remain more questions than answers, what is certain is that the Basques and Euskara are western Europe's oldest indigenous people and language.

http://www.nabasque....ABO/Origins.htm

From the looks of it your "nice round up" is a rather verbose way of saying what I've already told you, without actually getting into any in-depth details. None of which tells me anything more than I already knew.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#335    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:33 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 07 April 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

From the looks of it your "nice round up" is a rather verbose way of saying what I've already told you, without actually getting into any in-depth details. None of which tells me anything more than I already knew.

cormac
lol I know, it was saying about how much we don't actually know. A kind of round up way of saying, their is many things open to interpretation...  ;)

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#336    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:35 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 April 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

How many years of linguistic research did YOU "redo" ?

Not one single year, and I am convinced of that.

Fringe sites have 'all the answers', yeah.

And that is because they never took the trouble to study the subject they have crazy ideas about.

It's much more easy to dream of possibilities and fantasies than to lit up a couple of candles late at night, and STUDY the fkg subject by reading BOOKS.

(For the youngsters: books are objects made out of a bound collection of papers with a lot of black ink scriblings upon it. Idiots that you are.)

,
Why don't you add something of worth to the topic Abe, I've heard all this type of blather from you before, I'm not here to be judged, add something that actually disproves anything I've said - then I might take YOU seriously.  B)

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#337    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:41 AM

If we consider how much R1b covers Europe - and then state that this came into Europe and therefore covered those areas quite significantly - then we state that these people carried the IE language in - the only logical conclusion to make, is that the areas of R1b/R1a DID NOT SPEAK INDO-EUROPEAN prior to the entrance of R1b and R1a.

So, what were they speaking? Many people say they spoke a Basque language - we know the Aquitani are not Gauls/Celts and nor did they speak Celtic - they spoke Basque.

No matter what you all think, this idea is not that crazy - the influence of R1b and IE language should not be under-estimated of what it took over and superimposed itself onto.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#338    cormac mac airt

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:01 AM

Quote

If we consider how much R1b covers Europe - and then state that this came into Europe and therefore covered those areas quite significantly - then we state that these people carried the IE language in - the only logical conclusion to make, is that the areas of R1b/R1a DID NOT SPEAK INDO-EUROPEAN prior to the entrance of R1b and R1a.

This is inaccurately worded IMO, as mtDNA Haplogroups U5 and V as well as Y Chromosome DNA Haplogroups I and E1b1b1a1b are all known to predate the arrival of R1a and R1b into Europe. But I got the gist of what you were trying to say.

Quote

Many people say they spoke a Basque language...

If anything, they were probably speaking something that 'may' have been ancestral to Basque. It's also possible that there were other related languages at the time which are no longer extant. This should not, however, be interpreted as "they were speaking Basque".

Quote

...the influence of R1b and IE language should not be under-estimated of what it took over and superimposed itself onto.

The influence isn't being under-estimated, but one can't fill in the gaps with evidence that doesn't exist.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#339    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:21 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 08 April 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

This is inaccurately worded IMO, as mtDNA Haplogroups U5 and V as well as Y Chromosome DNA Haplogroups I and E1b1b1a1b are all known to predate the arrival of R1a and R1b into Europe. But I got the gist of what you were trying to say.



If anything, they were probably speaking something that 'may' have been ancestral to Basque. It's also possible that there were other related languages at the time which are no longer extant. This should not, however, be interpreted as "they were speaking Basque".



The influence isn't being under-estimated, but one can't fill in the gaps with evidence that doesn't exist.

cormac
OK, fair enough on all counts but glad you got the gist of what I was saying.

Number 2 got me thinking and I have now decided that rather than Basque, I'm seeing a more Aquitanian influence in the people, since they are recorded as speaking Basque, they may actually hold a better key to my understanding of this.

Just a general question with no agenda...what haplogroup would you associate with the Maglalenian people? E of some kind? H(mtDNA)?
Among all these clades, the subhaplogroups H1 and H3 have been subject to a more detailed study and would be associated to the Magdalenian expansion from SW Europe c. 13,000 years ago:
http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_H_(mtDNA)

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 April 2012 - 03:25 AM.

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#340    cormac mac airt

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:47 AM

Quote

Just a general question with no agenda...what haplogroup would you associate with the Maglalenian people? E of some kind? H(mtDNA)?

My guess, based on what I understand of the timeframe and the genetics involved, would be either the parent haplogroup "H" itself or possibly "H1". Just keep in mind though that that far back in time we are NOT talking about Basque in any meaningful usage of the term or any association therewith.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 08 April 2012 - 03:49 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#341    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 08 April 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

My guess, based on what I understand of the timeframe and the genetics involved, would be either the parent haplogroup "H" itself or possibly "H1". Just keep in mind though that that far back in time we are NOT talking about Basque in any meaningful usage of the term or any association therewith.

cormac

I will take it on board. I'm working on a haplogroup model to follow.

Here's something interesting:

The religious significance of the animals is lost on most analysts. Plato, as usual, provides the pertinent clue: the Atlantics worshipped Poseidon and regarded his sacred animal the horse with great awe. A revisionist look at the horses in cave paintings clarifies that the lines on horses' heads represent harnesses, not natural contours or anatomical details, proving that the Magdalenians or Atlantic peoples had tamed the horse by 12,000 BCE, some eight thousand years before the date assigned to the domestication of the horse in the conventional model.
http://dnaconsultant...Blog/tag/Plato/

These symbols below in the above line have been found in the Magdalenian sites - I pointed out one before, based on the position of it above a horse in the cave, I think it means horse and may have become H, lol - OK moving on, it's the 3rd symbol, top line - but it shows how they compare to Greek letters, many, many years would have passed between them...

Posted Image
Upper Paleolithic writing recovered from Magdalenian cave sites (top) compared to characters in three early written languages:   Indus valley signs, © Greek and (d) Runic. Settegast (p. 28) after Forbes and Crowder, 1979.

Hey, how about this - I said before it would not be unreasonable to suggest Atlantic people would travel to Gobekli Tepe.

Addendum:  One of the offshoots of Atlantic Culture according to Plato Prehistorian was the Çatal Hüyük civilization that flourished in Anatolia from 6200-5300 BCE. Only 2-3 % of the 32 acre site has been excavated, but what has come to light so far includes amazing cyclopean walls, refined wall paintings and peculiar religious practices such as a vulture-bull rite, leopard shrine and Mistress of the Animals cult reminiscent of Venus figurines. It is conceivable that Atlantic Culture itself was spurred to life originally by admixture of Europeans with Neanderthals, since there are numerous signs of Neanderthal culture in  archeological remains. Significantly, the Venus figures once associated with Gravettian Culture now appear to have had their origins with Neanderthals, who occupied Europe for 350,000 years before H. sapiens sapiens. Venus figurines were worn about the neck by Neanderthals, as proved in several excavations in Spain and elsewhere. In 1961, archeologists unearthed the skull of a Neanderthal man in the ancient site of Chalcedon on the east side of the Bosporus in Asia Minor, although the find is seldom mentioned today.
http://dnaconsultant...Blog/tag/Plato/

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 April 2012 - 06:33 AM.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#342    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:36 AM

Here's an interesting chart that gives some idea of haplogroups for these ancient peoples:

http://realhistoryww...by_location.htm

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#343    cormac mac airt

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:59 AM

On the subject of horses:

1) If you're going to use DNA Consultants as a reference you might as well be using toilet paper since they have similar purposes.

2) A revisionist look at horses is what someone WANTS to believe, not what any evidence suggests. The earliest actual evidence of domesticated horses is c.3500 BC, from Kazakhstan.

In regards to your ADDENDUM:

Quote

One of the offshoots of Atlantic Culture according to Plato Prehistorian was the Çatal Hüyük civilization...

Plato never mentioned Catal Huyuk and it dates to c.7500 BC. It also shows no evidence of being a civilization by any paleoanthropological definition of the word. Whomever wrote this is taking gross liberties with the facts IMO.

Quote

It is conceivable that Atlantic Culture itself was spurred to life originally by admixture of Europeans with Neanderthals, since there are numerous signs of Neanderthal culture in archeological remains.

One has to wonder how this could be true since by the time modern human (HSS) cultures were starting Neanderthals were long gone from the scene and in many cases modern humans took over Neanderthal sites well after the Neanderthals went extinct.

Quote

Significantly, the Venus figures once associated with Gravettian Culture now appear to have had their origins with Neanderthals, who occupied Europe for 350,000 years before H. sapiens sapiens.

I'd like to see a valid citation for this as the earliest on record, the Venus of Hohle Fels, dates to c.35,000-40,000 BC and is associated with Homo sapiens.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#344    cormac mac airt

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:06 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 08 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Here's an interesting chart that gives some idea of haplogroups for these ancient peoples:

http://realhistoryww...by_location.htm

I'm hoping this isn't a one-off, but congratulations on finding a decent genetics related site. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. It just took long enough.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#345    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:07 AM

OK lol, I'll check some of the statements out some more.

View Postcormac mac airt, on 08 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I'm hoping this isn't a one-off, but congratulations on finding a decent genetics related site. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. It just took long enough.

cormac
I'm still new to the 'sorting out the dodgy dna sites' caper yet, goodo.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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