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Trojans were Basques?


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#466    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:52 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 May 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Everything I thought you'd learned just went right down the crapper with the above post.  :(

It's bad enough I'm suffering through sinusitis and an upper respiratory infection, but after reading the above I'm tempted to give up.

cormac
lol OK, I was playing around...it's all good. I'll forget I made the post.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#467    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:58 AM

What are your thoughts on R1b-S21 (U106)?


My fertile streak isn't over yet. Here is a brand new map of haplogroup R1b-S21, associated with the migration of Germanic peoples, especially tribes originating around the modern Netherlands, North-West Germany, Denmark and Norway, such as the Anglo-Saxons, the Franks, the Lombards, as well as the Danish and Norwegian Vikings.
http://www.eupedia.c...hread.php?26700

Where do you think the branching out from R1b lines might have occurred? (I've got 1000BC)  

Because it seems to be a Frisian branch, I'm interested.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 May 2012 - 02:08 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#468    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:19 AM

The Suebi and Allemanni became Germans. The Suebi lived all throughout Sweden and down into Northern Germany. They appear to me to be where 'Fryans' would have been and the movements seem to be similar.

Apart from that though, they didn't actually call themselves Allemanni, which is an IE all-man meaning, but Suebi or Suevi, which makes me think they weren't actually speaking Germanic, possibly another pre-Germanic IE language, since sue-swe is very early PIE from what I know. Suebi/Suevi became Sweden and all of Scandinavia - back in the day when Snorri wrote, all the area was known as Greater Sweden. (Schoonland).

Germanic migrations just don't seem right for the timeframe of this haplogroup. Maybe early Suebi migrations/movements, who I suppose were proto-Germanic people...

We must come now to speak of the Suebi, who do not, like the Chatti or Tencteri, constitute a single nation. They actually occupy more than half of Germany, and are divided into a number of distinct tribes under distinct names, though all generally are called Suebi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

The interesting thing with these people is, after the Franks arrival, they migrated to Galacia, in Spain and Portugal speading the Germanic R1b - U106 genes there.


Passing through the Basque country, they settled in the Roman province of Gallaecia, in north-western Hispania (modern Galicia and northern Portugal), swore fealty to the Emperor Honorius and were accepted as foederati and permitted to settle, under their own autonomous governance. Contemporaneously with the self-governing province of Britannia, the kingdom of the Suebi in Gallaecia became the first of the sub-Roman kingdoms to be formed in the disintegrating territory of the Western Roman Empire. Suebic Gallaecia was the first kingdom separated from the Roman Empire to mint coins.
The Suebic kingdom in Gallaecia and northern Lusitania was established at 410 and lasted until 584. Smaller than the Ostrogothic kingdom of Italy or the Visigothic kingdom in Hispania, it reached a relative stability and prosperity—and even expanded military southwards—despite the occasional quarrels with the neighbouring Visigothic kingdom.


Edited by The Puzzler, 02 May 2012 - 02:43 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#469    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:39 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 02 May 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

lol OK, I was playing around...it's all good. I'll forget I made the post.

The problem with your previous post, Puzzler, is that there is no such thing as R1b1b2/M269. It's R1b1a2/M269. So the part that says:

Quote

...which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1b2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a.

Is actually saying:

Quote

...which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1a2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a

Really??  I can forgive your not keeping up with the current and correct nomenclature, but your source is showing ignorance at its finest by presenting a defunct name as relevant to a current discussion. And the incorrect part is actually a descendant of R1b1a, which we know existed in the Levant and North Africa at low levels. This is one of many reasons I quit using Eupedia and other incompetent sources for information.

Quote

Where do you think the branching out from R1b lines might have occurred? (I've got 1000BC)

And you were questioning me on the "claim" of recent expansions of descendant lines of R1b1a2/M269 3kya (1000 BC), which came from the paper you presented. Do you not see the discrepancy here? And again, the only thing supporting the paper you presented is the self same paper. It says as much in its own presentation.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#470    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:01 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 May 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

The problem with your previous post, Puzzler, is that there is no such thing as R1b1b2/M269. It's R1b1a2/M269. So the part that says:



Is actually saying:



Really??  I can forgive your not keeping up with the current and correct nomenclature, but your source is showing ignorance at its finest by presenting a defunct name as relevant to a current discussion. And the incorrect part is actually a descendant of R1b1a, which we know existed in the Levant and North Africa at low levels. This is one of many reasons I quit using Eupedia and other incompetent sources for information.



And you were questioning me on the "claim" of recent expansions of descendant lines of R1b1a2/M269 3kya (1000 BC), which came from the paper you presented. Do you not see the discrepancy here? And again, the only thing supporting the paper you presented is the self same paper. It says as much in its own presentation.

cormac
OK, I see what you mean with Eupedia.

I do see the discrepancy, that's why I'm asking you - I'm willing to go either way based on what is the most likely scenario.

I'm still grasping some basic concepts yet, bear with me.

So all the branches coming from U106/S21 are from that lineage?

R1b1a2a1a1a (R-U106)
This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker U106, also known as S21 and M405.[2][42] It appears to represent over 25% of R1b in Europe.[2] U106/S21 still un-defined
R-U106* (R1b1b2a1a1a*)
U198
R-M467/S29/U198 (R1b1b2a1a1a1)
DYS439(null)/L1/S26
R-L1/S26 (R1b1b2a1a1a3)
L48

R-L48* (R1b1b2a1a1a4*)
L47

R-L47* (R1b1b2a1a1a4a*)
L44

R-L44* (R1b1b2a1a1a4a1*)


R-L45 and L46 and L146 (R1b1b2a1a1a4a1a1)


L148
R-L148 (R1b1a2a1a1a4b)

L257
R-L257 (R1b1a2a1a1a8)


Now:
M269 still un-defined
R-M269* (R1b1a2*)
L23 still un-defined
R-L23* (R1b1a2a*)
L150 still un-defined
R-L150* (R1ba2a1*)
L51/M412 still un-defined
R-L51*/R-M412* (R1b1a2a1a*)
P310/L11 still un-defined
R-P310/L11* (R1b1a2a1a1*)
U106
R-U106 (R1b1a2a1a1a)
P312
R-P312 (R1b1a2a1a1b)




R-L277 (R1b1a1a1b)




  

The charts didn't come up right but obviously I am looking at the 2 here: http://en.wikipedia....1a_.28R-U106.29

- anyway - all those are branches off M269 right, so U106 and P312 branched out of P310/L11 R1b (parent group)?

This Western European population is further divided between R-P312/S116 and R-U106/S21, which appear to spread from the western and eastern Rhine river basin respectively.


P310/L11 areas, should then be home to ancestors of U106? or what?

In addition, the sub-clade distribution map, Figure 1h titled "L11(xU106,S116)", in Myres et al. shows that R-P310/L11* (or as yet undefined subclades of R-P310/L11) occurs only in frequencies greater than 10% in Central England with surrounding areas of England and Wales having lower frequencies.[7] This R-P310/L11* is almost non-existent in the rest of Eurasia and North Africa with the exception of coastal lands fringing the western and southern Baltic (reaching 10% in Eastern Denmark and 6% in northern Poland) and in Eastern Switzerland and surrounds.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 May 2012 - 03:13 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#471    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:26 AM

Quote

I do see the discrepancy, that's why I'm asking you - I'm willing to go either way based on what is the most likely scenario.

I'm never entirely sure where you're coming from as quite often when reading your posts I get the mental picture of a red kangaroo hopped up on 'speed'. :w00t:

ISOGG has the best breakdown of R1b1a2:

http://www.isogg.org...GG_HapgrpR.html

R1b1a2 L265, M269, M520, S3, S10, S13, S17
• • • • • • R1b1a2* -
• • • • • • R1b1a2a L23/S141, L49.1/S349
• • • • • • • R1b1a2a* -
• • • • • • • R1b1a2a1 L150
• • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1* -
• • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a L51/M412/S167
• • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1 L11/S127, L52, L151, P310/S129, P311/S128
• • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a M405/S21/U106
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a1 P107
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a2 L6
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a3 L217
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4 Z18, Z19
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a Z14
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a1 Z372
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a1a L257/S186
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4b L325
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5 Z381
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a Z156
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a1 L1/S26
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a2 P89.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b Z301
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b1 M467/S29/U198
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2 L48/S162
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a L47/S170
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1 L44/S171, L163
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1a L46/S172
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1a1 L45, L164, L237
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a2 Z159
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b Z9
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1 Z2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a Z7
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1 Z5, Z8
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a Z11
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a1 Z12
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a1a L148/S173
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b Z1
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b1 Z6
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2 Z346
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2a Z343
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1c M365.4
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b2 Z326
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b2* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b2a L188
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2c L200
• • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b P312/S116
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b1 M65
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2 Z196
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2a M153
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b L176.2/S179.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b1 M167/SRY2627
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b2 L165/S68
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3 S28/U152
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3a M126
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3b M160
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c L2/S139
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 Z367
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a L20/S144
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a1 M228.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1b Z34
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1b1 Z35
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c2 L196
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3 Z49
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a Z142
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a1 L562
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3d Z36
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e Z56
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e1 L4/S178
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e2 S47
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e3 Z144, Z145, Z146
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4 L21/M529/S145, L459
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4a M37
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4b M222/Page84/USP9Y+3636
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c DF1/L513/S215
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c1 P66_1, P66_2, P66_3
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c2 L193/S176
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c3 L706.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c3* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c3a L705.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4d L96
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4e L144/S175, L195
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4f L159.2/S169.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g Z253
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g1 L226/S168
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g2 L554
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h DF21/S192
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h1 P314.2/S220.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h1a L362
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2 Z246/S280
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a DF25/S253
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1 DF5/S191
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1a L627
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1b L658
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h3 L720/S299
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h4 S190 (see Notes)
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4i L371
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b5 L238/S182
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b6 DF19
• • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1b L584


I would remind you to watch your sources as whatever you used in the previous post is again mixing defunct nomenclature with the more current ones in use.

In short, yes, they're all sub-groups of M269 and yes P310 would be ancestral to U106.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#472    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:38 AM

In England around the timeframe we have the influx of Beaker folk, from Portugal, which is probably why the earliest Brits have a connection to Iberia.
The Beaker culture arrived around 2500 BC, introducing drinking and food vessels constructed from clay, as well as vessels used as reduction pots to smelt copper ores.[31] It was during this time that major Neolithic monuments such as Stonehenge and Avebury were constructed. By heating together tin and copper, both of which were in abundance in the area, the Beaker culture people made bronze, and later iron from iron ores. The development of iron smelting allowed the construction of better ploughs, advancing agriculture (for instance, with Celtic fields), as well as the production of more effective weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England


The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic.

AN ANCESTRAL PROTO-CELTIC. This to me, ties in with the U106 beginnings.

Seems to me an ancestral proto-Celt R1b U106 was part of the Bell Beaker people expansion.

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#473    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:42 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 May 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I'm never entirely sure where you're coming from as quite often when reading your posts I get the mental picture of a red kangaroo hopped up on 'speed'. :w00t:


In short, yes, they're all sub-groups of M269 and yes P310 would be ancestral to U106.

cormac
Thanks for the list - and one wonders why one finds this confusing... :unsure2:

A good analogy I guess, that's pretty much how I feel.

OK, good, I can work better now with the charts.

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#474    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:08 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 02 May 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

In England around the timeframe we have the influx of Beaker folk, from Portugal, which is probably why the earliest Brits have a connection to Iberia.
The Beaker culture arrived around 2500 BC, introducing drinking and food vessels constructed from clay, as well as vessels used as reduction pots to smelt copper ores.[31] It was during this time that major Neolithic monuments such as Stonehenge and Avebury were constructed. By heating together tin and copper, both of which were in abundance in the area, the Beaker culture people made bronze, and later iron from iron ores. The development of iron smelting allowed the construction of better ploughs, advancing agriculture (for instance, with Celtic fields), as well as the production of more effective weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England


The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic.

AN ANCESTRAL PROTO-CELTIC. This to me, ties in with the U106 beginnings.

Seems to me an ancestral proto-Celt R1b U106 was part of the Bell Beaker people expansion.

Going back to a previous article I mentioned that actually has independant support, namely "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe", the expansion date for U106 is 8742 +/- 1551 years BP (6742 +/- 1551 years BC). Obviously this greatly predates the Beaker Culture by several millenia. Also the point of origin of U106 would appear to be more inline with Germany/Poland and not Portugal, or more generally Iberia.

cormac

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#475    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:18 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 May 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

Going back to a previous article I mentioned that actually has independant support, namely "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe", the expansion date for U106 is 8742 +/- 1551 years BP (6742 +/- 1551 years BC). Obviously this greatly predates the Beaker Culture by several millenia. Also the point of origin of U106 would appear to be more inline with Germany/Poland and not Portugal, or more generally Iberia.

cormac
OK, thanks. 6742-1551 years is around 5200BC so maybe it's the beginnings of them - all righty then, I shall review the earlier R1b into Europe idea.

I'll edit and leave it at that for now.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 May 2012 - 04:42 AM.

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#476    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 05:15 AM

I see this:  https://docs.google....dS7OUg3B66R8QwA

Expansion of farming: 7000-4000BC - R1b-L11 - then R1b U106 at 1000BC-1000AD

Are you saying the expansion date for the parent group L11 is said to be 8742 +/- 1551 years BP or U106 itself?

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#477    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:07 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 02 May 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

I see this:  https://docs.google....dS7OUg3B66R8QwA

Expansion of farming: 7000-4000BC - R1b-L11 - then R1b U106 at 1000BC-1000AD

Are you saying the expansion date for the parent group L11 is said to be 8742 +/- 1551 years BP or U106 itself?

U106 itself.

cormac

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#478    GGG guy

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:03 PM

I've been following the last few pages and thought I would consolidate my thinking relative to both R1a and R1b yDNA haplogroupes. I'm beginning to think a Central Asian Buryan, or Burjan tribe may have split around the Caucasus, and then would hve migrated into two differing locations, thus would carry both genetic signatures, both as subclades to "R". I say this because many European locations can carry this tribal name in geographical locations today, and, whether or not the European map is split 50/50 territorially, as we see in the current DNA distribution models. This could allow a way to detangle the Caucasus, the Aremenians, and Caucasus Iberians. Perhaps also differentiate Azebaijan, and my India parts, in the scope of the Fertile Crescent and Sumerian time line. Is this tenable? Could a tribe end up as both R1a and R1b dependinig on tribal split and two migrational avenues, thereby imparting the yDNA sudclades of "R", that is R1a and R1b? I believe the tribe name was used before an "R" time line according to DNA methods of dating, and I feel the "R" can be accomodated into my study tribe name. Any thoughts?

Antole Klyosov metioned the R1a1 tribe in India identified as Chenchu peoples. I'm complacent with this because these people also fit the god Kubera real well. Although Kubera is related to horses as a tamga symbol, he was also aligned with India's version of Tibetan Hyperboreans (of the North), which then connects S. India Kubera to the North, and perhaps also fits within the "Aryan Invasion" into India time frame model. I have no issue with this but to say that my key tribe would readily predate this event, and the "R" subclades in the Pamir Knot regions. In light of this, its clear that R1a1 is in India, and I can relate the god Kubera with the Chenchu people/s. Today in South India, the Chenchu can be found on the upper plateau (1,265 meters above sea level) as the most elevated tableland in South Andhra Pradesh. Horsely Hills is within this zone, and Chenchu people today.  Horsely is from a surname, and a summer retreat was built here by such, in more recent times, I think unrelated to the god Kubera and horses as a tamga. Not to infer, but that's my current take on this. So R1a1 is directly tied to the god Kubera, in my opinion.

If we were to take this to Zebulun, and the Kebara Cave, then, can this be taken to Egypt? If so, is their an R1a1 yDNA that went with it, or was Kubera borrowed, and grandfathered into Egypt pantheon?

To answer this, I'll attach a review of King Akhenaton, and his said associations with Kubera. This is about 1/2 way into the following essay.

VEDIC CIVILIZATION THE PROGENITOR OF EGYPTIAN CIVILIZATION

So can this be related to a Buryan, or Burjan type tribe, and is it necessarily only R1a, or can there be perhaps a R1b affiliation as well?

My current thinking is that R1a and R1b may both be needed, and affiliated witht the same "R" prior to a parting of ways, and that the very same pantheons were brought to Europe by the "R" percursor haplogroup. The Caucasus is a good place for a geographical split to occur, and within current DNA mapping, and time line as well.

I had mentioned M'zab which is actually in Algeria today. I also mentioned a location called Berryan in the Sahara, and said to be a "very white people". Around M'zab is another Oasis called Berriane today. I believe this is the Berryan I was seeking. Although this name seems to be of the later 17th century, I haven't yet looked into this history.  You may recall that I made the claim that the name M'zab (city) could perhaps originate from the mountain called Zaborah, and I think is realted to Zebulun in Lebanon. Because I also make the Kubera god India to be part od Kebara Cave in Lebanon (Mt. Carmel), then collectively, I may be able to connect these dots, on the map, and perhaps fit the yDNA timeline current model.

In the case for Berryan as Berriane, I see little room left to wiggle in. Here's the region of interest.

Berriane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

M'zab - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I still hold to my Battle Axe culture tribal part and should mention that in Poland today, Burian surname variants are a bit rare to find. I have better results within Silesia (dismantled), and Bradenburg, Pommerinia, and Lithuania. Slovakia is also a bit thin on this name. I see West Czech as of Boeotia Island, aka, Boii tribe/s, (West Czech. Bohemians), and a sub-part of Germanic Suevi tribes, in general. I see an Etruscan bridge to this thinking. I believe Bari (in Apulia-Apollo region) Italy to be a part of this, too.

If the Mzab region is called Berriane, perhaps from Berryan, would it still carry the translation "berry", to mean "new"? Kind of a mute point, but I'm still out on a simple carryover as workable in the Sahara, but, perhaps there is some merit to this tranlsation. Any thoughts?

Be back soon, and I think your gaining momentum Puzzler on the DNA part. I haven't forgotten about the megalith timeline we are seeking, but not simple to add substance. See if my needle and thread can be woven into this DNA, and historical timeline, and whether or not an early tribe that was R, can later be both R1a, and R1b, but yet carry the same tribal name to different regions on the planet, thus forming subclades R1a, and R1b? My study tribe can be analogeous to other tribal names likewise, but I can't suggest another, yet anyway with confidence. My study tribe shouldn't have an exclusive here, but the deities are tricky, as its known many are inter-tribal. My tribe in question seems to push a shamanistic attribute, and this would be very ancient prior to the haplogroup R, but R is plenty old enough for some of our basic questions. Certainly, one should have a handle on this before attempting earlier dates. That is to say, reasonable compliance with current archaeology, and theories which can support ones own model such as mine (Grand Global Genome - GGG concept).

I'm getting along with all of this. I think??? The Berber question is equally a concern, so I have added I believe a good data point for my model. Perhaps I can now penetrate into a Berber-Libyan Sahara desert domain and fit into a historical timeline. Comments welcome, GGG guy.


#479    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 02:29 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 May 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

U106 itself.

cormac
It will be interesting to see what more studies of this haplogroup show.

As noted in the other recent paper, and shown in the above Figure from the current one, R-U106 peaks in northern Europe. Its frequency (including the R-U198 sublineage) is 36.8% in the Netherlands, 20.9% in Germany and Austria, 18.2% in Denmark, 18.2% in England, 12.6% in Switzerland, 7.5% in France, 6.1% in Ireland, 5.9% in Poland, 5.6% in north Italy 4.4% in Czech Republic and Slovakia, 3.5% in Hungary, 4.8% in Estonia, 4.3% in south Sweden, 2.5% in Spain and Portugal, 1.3% in eastern Slavs, 0.8% in south Italy, 0.6% in Balkan Slavs, 0.5% in Greeks (i.e. 2 of 193 Cretans, and no mainland Greeks), 0.4% in Turks, 0% in Middle East.



The age of R-U106 is estimated by the authors as 8.7ky BP, which translates to about 2.5ky BP with the germline rate. The existence of R-U106 as a major lineage within the Germanic group is self-evident, as Germanic populations have a higher frequency against all their neighbors (Romance, Irish, Slavs, Finns). Indeed, highest frequencies are attained in the Germanic countries, followed by countries where Germanic speakers are known to have settled in large numbers but to have ultimately been absorbed or fled (such as Ireland, north Italy, and the lands of the Austro-Hungarian empire). South Italy, the Balkans, and West Asia are areas of the world where no Germanic settlement of any importance is attested, and correspondingly R-U106 shrinks to near-zero.

http://dienekes.blog...entral-and.html

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#480    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 03:08 AM

GGG, I like reading your posts but struggle to answer them, sorry, keep posting though, sometimes I do have some answers. The article on Vedic and Egyptian connections was very interesting. cormac might better be able to respond to the DNA questions.

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