607 replies to this topic

[GGG guy]

Thanks for the Hindu translation source information. I suspect there is a few differing translations, and meanings for this Hindu Kush mountain name origin. I think that we can set this aside for the time being, and I want to add into the Hindu cow creation theme, and perhaps a more specific folkloric version as to whether or not this could then be related to the Norse cow pantheon. To aid my descriptions, I also want to back reference the yDNA paper I attached by Klyosov, wherein; the claim that R1a1 haplogroup is connected to Southern India, specific as Chenchu tribe/s, and that this would coincide with the concept called "the Aryan Invasion" into India, and the generally accepted time line. This I also claim is of Northern Tibetan Hyperboreans, that also went south during this period, thus preserved their god Kubera in both locations, where; North is an earlier Indus Valley civilization/s, that thereafter intermingled into the Dravidian cultures in the South. This implies a Hindu-Dravidian connection demonstrated by this Kubera god, under their primary deity Shiva. A derivative of their cow goddess then went North into Baltic arena, if, I have my data correctly aligned, and the proper tribal traces. This is to allow a Norse Buri(man) myth by way of their cow, Audumia.

An India cow, as a deified version is called Kamadhenu. I'll attach an overview of some of their regional folkloric testimony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamadhenu

Now to zero in on my cow and legend of interest, I'll add a location called "Borra Caves", and to note that their definition for Borra, is "something that has bored into the ground", a definition Puzzler had previously mentioned relative to to North Pole axis, and zodiac, wherein the constellations rotate around to pole, as to go-around, as a drill would to bore holes into the ground. In this zodiac, the Norse Buri would align with Draco (wolf/dragon), as opposed to Ursa Major (bear), both of which rotate at the pole. In the Norse myth sense, recall it is Fenrir "tied" to the North Pole, and I claim them also to be Hyperboreans, and also Buryans, or Burjans.



http://en.wikipedia....iki/Borra_Caves

Now their is my personal debate about motherearth cow goddesses, and an equal for the Egyptian cow goddess Hathor. For my Norse choice, I lean to India. The region of Borra Caves in Andra Pradesh, if this is actually related to the Boreans. However, R1a yDNA can also support this regional area. This timelines roughly to what I would anticipate, and even to the Kassites of Babylon around 1750 BC.

To allow some more rationale about cows and aurochs I'll attach a couple of basic info links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebu

It may be that Zebu leads to Zebulun in Lebanon, and their Kebera Cave at Mt. Carmel. If so, one could perceive cow/bull in the locational name in Biblical times. Their territory I think changed as I have differing maps in this Lebanon region. Likely won or lost territory in historical war events.

If we wanted to compare some notes about cow DNA and cow species in India, Egypt, and Europe, then we can review this web link on this topic, which is quite interesting, if we examine cows as a species.

http://tech.dir.grou...sage/4761?var=1

I also want to add that India also has a Banyan tree (sacred). Seems right close to the tribe name Buryan, but, this is also pure speculation on my behalf, even though I see subtleties in many of these word spelling variants.

http://ancientindian...anchvati-nasik/

I want to add this now, and I'll add in a second part, but I lost my add-in a day back, so I'll shorten this a bit, GGG guy.

PS, this is to obtain Iberian/Basque roots, if workable, and/or a Northern peoples, especially difficult at 3-5,000 BC. Minoans may help in this analysis, so I'm attempting to tidy up a connection on Crete, too, because it fetches such early dates, with ruins as well.

[GGG guy]

A while back in this blog, the question for the word labryth (double-axe) up on the etymology question. I see a Buryan-blacksmith in this word, however, as a Carian-Zeus Anatolian people, I claim to be Hyperboreans, there is an ancient city called Labraunda. Here's a link.

http://www.labraunda..._Labraunda.html

http://www.labraunda...raunda_eng.html

The descriptive myths show clearly that a mythical golden double-axe is laced into this region at the dates given. I should also note that golden double-axes were dug up on Minoan Crete. They appear ceremonial to me. Such an axe could have indeed been real, because Lydia was known for gold (ref King Midas), so they could have very well transferred such a deified relic into Carian regions, to their south, in Anatolia. Maybe this will help definitions.

In Caria, I also mentioned Burdur, but left out the name of the city here called Kibyra. I'll attach a link for this location. I see root in the India god Kubera for this city name. I also see a Buryan tribe name in this.

http://www.burdur.gov.tr/en/kibyra.asp

Now on the comments concerning Vinca Culture and Macedonia regions as their earliest, it appears to align to Klyosov's yDNA at similar dates. Clearly I can place Hyperboreans here, but if I consider the Thracian ancient metal works in archaeology, of which I do have an association to a Burjan tribe on Lemnos Island (of Iron Age dates - I think), but none-the-less, text suggested they liked Thracian women, suggesting inter-marriages between these two haplogroups. Note that Klyosov hade some difficulty with the Macedonian R1a at his projected dates. I believe that it was the Amazon's also on Lemnos Island, that the Burjan tribe avoided. This would thus split paths for a mtDNA vs. yDNA regional distributions, if the two are compared to each other. Because of my blacksmith pedigree, and some text, I think I can make the argument to connect to this very ancient Vinca Culture copper smithing. This is my intuitive thought on this culture, but I will attempt to assimilate this culture more if I can. My part could incorporate them into a Battle Axe Culture that went North at a Later date, which I suspect connects to Norse creation myth pantheon. Could be a stepping stone to Iberian Spain, but I see this perhaps more as a Druid, where Iberian Spain I think is more a Sea Peoples in the Mediterranean, even at similar dates perhaps. I believe that Santorini blew up, and thus, all things became this next event time line thereafter, once the globe resettled.

To aid on Hyperborean definitions, I'll attach what I think is a little bit newer version in Wiki.

http://www.theoi.com...erboreades.html

I would suggest that the Tarim Mummies in Central Asia are also tall people, not 9ft, but I recall around 7ft tall, and they fetch a date of ~1850BC, and, also suggests some of them are of European race/s, and thus one of the only archaeology sites suggesting an East to West, or West to East migration pathway from this period. A Hyperborean can be in this location.

For Egypt, the Cave Dwellers called the Trogoldytica are said to be Hyperborean, but in light of the Mt. Zaborah location in Lower Egypt, I've read they were also in Upper Egypt between the Blue and Whitr Nile tributaries, and also as cave dwellers here. This Upper Egypt could in theory be related to the deity called Ash, referenced previously herein. Sketchy, but a data point.

http://en.wikipedia....ce_Troglodytica

Herein, my question would be, can Hator be connected to India's creation cow/s, and any specific tribal name/s.

I also want to add a page for creation aspects of man being made from clay, or dirt. In this way, a Burigod could actually translate as "clay-dirt". Sounds like Fir Bolg Picts to me, who carried bags of dirt. Strangly enough, perhaps this may allow a certain perspective. All factors seem to point to this as perhaps the better definition for the word/s Buri, Borra, Burg...etc. Actually seems reasonable even for cave men to have a simplified context in root. Thereafter, it evolves with more and more layers twixt into the original scope of spirituality of our ancient ancestors.

http://en.wikipedia....f_man_from_clay

My previous understanding was that this clay thing was a Hyperborean concept, but it appears from this attachment, that there is quite a few regions and dates for this concept. I should note that in the Chenchu tribe of Southern India (R1a), that their myth (one-version) has man of clay-tree, as a creation theme. Adds insight into trees with copy-cat names, such as Buri palms, perhaps Banyan trees, and a Tree in Caria I haven't looked at yet called a "Plane Tree".

Be back soon, but feel I should support my concepts with some hard data. Tracing a tribe can be pretty complex, and I hope I can reduce this into a simpler context - for review - but I don't exactly have the whole enchilada, but feel close to a summary type assimilation, on this type of tribe. I also think I can perhaps place a Hyperborean into any of the locations described by ancient historians, as to where Borea may have actually existed. Otherwise, they're just a myth.

See if these factors are workable or not, or, if any additional comments, pro or con, are warranted. Again, I'm aiming at Spain's Iberians, and whether or not they could be proto-Basque tribal affiliates, if not Basques themselves. I do see associations in their myths, which makes me less inclinded to isolate them as suggested herein, and in some reading, most of which is vague on tribal names, and locations, if not for dates, too. You only have whats known to work with to expand the envelope. I'm also attempting to nail down the Nordic Buri in hopes this may open some new corridors to assimilate a better understanding of Northern peoples, and perhaps where they originate from, that is to say, their culture. I think I'm making headway.

Comments welcome, GGG guy. Its a bit-by-bit process.

[GGG guy]

I've decided to include some more information on the Vinca culture, and the Norse myths, and the possibility as of common ancestors. This should be within R1a yDNA haplogroup, if my tribal approximations are reasonable in their content, and source origin I'll state as Siberian-Tibetan. If I round off the date for Vinca - copper and gold smelting to ~5000 BC, there is also a diffusion question suggesting that metallurgy left this region, due to IE influxes of people, ~3,000 BC, where this caused the final demise of their early West European civilization. The are aspects which can suggest diffusion in all directions, which I'll attempt to bracket-in to my tribal research, then suggest how a Vinca culture may be related. Also as part of the Battle Axe culture, around Scancinavia, and to include Belgium, and Ireland, and Iberian Spain. This will be tied to metals, mainly copper, but additional other common attributes, I may have to equally align to the concepts I believe are related to my key tribal study.

I want to clarify the Nordic Buri-god to mean, a person shaped rocky construct, wherein, the Cow Audumia (Adumbla) essentially animates Buri, but as a god, not a mortal, or man, as to parallel a Biblical "Adam and Eve", this would be Ask (Ash- man), and Embla (Elm - woman), in Norse myth, and both are names of trees. They are brother and sister (twins). Also given is sol-sun goddess, and mani, her brother, is the moon. I'm not certain if they are the same twins or not. Here's the outline for the pantheon allowing these names.

http://en.wikibooks....Norse_Mythology

For the Vinca culture, I'll attach a web link called "Old Europe" by Philip Coppens. His outline is a review of the culture and provides date specific locations and definitions.

http://www.philipcop.../oldeurope.html

For my concept, the following are points of interest he mentions. The Vinca culture has similarities to both Sumerian, and Isle of Crete runic characters, that he claims essentially matches Minoan linear A script, of which, hasn't been deciphered, yet. It appears as a language of words as symbols, but not of sentences, or stories. Script is only found in brief numbers of characters in length, so there isn't long strings to support a story, or even a sentence as such. However, Minoans and Vinca culture has this language affinity. The dates for Vinca allow a Sumerian 1st dynasty time line, or a proto-Sumerian connection before Eridu and the Ubaid culture. My blacksmiths are the 2nd dynasty - I claim - at Bad Tibira, translations which suggest "copper". This represents an Asia Minor, or Eastward diffusion from the Vinca progenitor, if we think early metallurgy. In the early Vinca smelter site at Rudna Glava, copper chisel, two-headed hammer, and an axe were found (I think a double-axe type), because this double-bladed axe is in Vinca motifs, and Minoan, and the Battle Axe culture. Crete could represent a Minoan-Iberian Spain avenue as Sea Peoples in Spain. This author would also suggest a tie to the Cycladic culture and Crete, ~3200 BC. He mentions Vinca artifacts in SE France, or as Old Europe types of artifacts. I see this as Westward diffusion, not necessarily by sea, or land, but I see a Danube route by water, and would lean to a Druid connection, if my study tribe is part of the Vinca Culture, at these sorts of dates. He suggest megalith connections as possible.

I'll attach a map of Western Europe Copper Age, and associated locations, dates, and names. This link defines the difference between finding smelters, as opposed to digging up metal objects, which can be carried to a location, not necessarily made there, nor made by the people living there. Smelters are quite rare in West-Europe, and the ones known have later dates, which supports a diffusion from a Central, or quasi-Central source origin, that then spread the knowledge for the blacksmith craft into other regions, but, where some other cultures modified, or improved the process/es. As claimed in the next attachment, there isn't a simple explanation to cover the scope of archaeological locations and timeline, but indications for a "centralized" source, non-the-less.

http://britishmuseum..._Western_Europe

This link has a good map. They use a term called Beaker Metallurgy. I will note that their map of Western Europe fits the data points I've previously given. Of interest to me is the name Amesbury, which I recall is Avebury in England, Zambujal (3rd millenium BC) Spain-Portugal (similar to the mountain name Evora ring stone name I previously attached herein ~5000BC). They mention Pakistan.
Copper axes and ornaments were dug up in Switzerland dated 2nd half 5th millennium BC.
I see their N. France metals at Vignely 3517-3357 BC as my possible Druidic factor, but could be the Swiss, or even an Iberian source root diffusion path, but the Danube would support a whole bunch of other factors, if included, would isolate the Iberians to the South, perhaps be a Basque part, but I see two separate paths, allowing for an Iberian-Ligurian language factor, which I contend would be a likely Minoan and Sea Peoples in Southern Spain, and the Ebro (Ebur) River in Central Spain. I would connect Portugal to this thinking. Copper is also tied to a megalith tomb in Germany. This suggest metal folks also built megaliths.

If we look at smelters, than there is only a few noted at; SW France, NW Wales, SW Ireland. The is reference to the "Amesbury Archer" (Avebury henge Cornwall) and possible connection to Swiss Alps. Acher arrowheads were also dug up at Stonehenge.

I believe my data I've already given fits these locations, and in some cases, their names.

This is my 1st order evaluation of the Vinca metallurgy, the time line, and the looming question, are they connected to India, a Buri tribe in Romanian regions, and a possible source for the Norse Buri god mythology? Not sure of the answer, but I see a lot of common parts within the tribe I'm attempting to trace historically. Starts from the date American Indians crossed the Bering Sea land bridge. Should be of the same shamanist nature, if I'm correct.

These papers will help us weight the impact of metals on cultures, which in Old Europe, didn't have all the gloss, as suggested in sword such as Excalibur. Metals in Western Europe tend to trail in dates for all cases, when compared to Vinca culture dates of East Europe, suggesting a diffusion from this earlier source. I'm in agreement with this, and I'm not certain if a Buryan-Burjan tribe can be at this laocation, even if a haplogroup as R1a invites this strongly. I may be able to build into this yet, but I see this as regionally compliant within my current context of research. as a 1st order approximation. Thanks for the tip on this culture's name.

Can anyone agree that I'm likely correct on the "blacksmith" occupation for my study tribe. This is very fundamental for my key tribe, but not to suggest it to be the "only" tribe. Can anyone add another tribal names in lieu of a culture name, or, is there another tribe name to "target". I contend that some of this can be targeted, and if you find what you outline and seek, then this suggest a "truthful" outcome. I think I'm going to have to explain why my tribe isn't of Vinca culture, thats how strong the ties appear to me to be. Very untenable dates to work within, at best.

Right now, I feel real good about the Minoan part which allows a Sea People, and a possible Iberian-Spain part, of which may be the mining prospectors that were the reasons some of these locals were started, i.e., in search of ores. See if these papers help on this miner-metallurgy factor or scenario.

I believe it will take other types of forensics to shed more light on Vinca culture, and migrations out of East Europe, and truely as "Old Europe". GGG guy.

[The Puzzler]

Brother and sister trees and the birth of Apollo, he has a twin sister Artemis remind me of the Ask/ash(man) and Embla/elm (woman). Leto gave birth hanging over a tree and it took 9 days. I found a comparison with Odin hanging in the tree for 9 days. Apollo's love Daphne also turned into a tree.  I'm also feeling the etymology of Embla as relative to emblem which originally meant 'to lay in'/an 'insertion'.


http://en.wikipedia....i/Ask_and_Embla

--------------------------------
I also found this interesting picture, note the bird on top of the World Tree, compare to Minoan labrys I showed with bird on top.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

Edited by The Puzzler, 23 June 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[GGG guy]

If I was to interpret "embla", I would suggest ember. Embers from forges leads to ashes, thus one has a unity of the upper world tree, as fire or lightning, and the tree roots as ashes, or the underworld. Us mortals live between these two domains on Earth, one of the 9-worlds. From ember, one can obtain amber, the Northern stone that represents the sun, or fire. So the original name for amber would be indicative of its color. In this thinking, I believe the Northern bird is described as "rust colored" feathers. If we had a forge, and ashes, I would suggest the color as "copper color" because I believe they are blacksmiths of the Battle Axe culture, so this should still work within color definitions, but also allow for their occupation. Note one interpretation for Yggdrasil uses the word "heat". I suggest this translation is likely the closest, of the ones given. (Ref Henry Adams Bellows in the Yggdrasil attachment above). The Eagle should be same as Phoenix, except, where one deposits the ashes may take as second part, or, they too used Egypt's Sun Temple, after the phoenix type bird dies. Hyperborean gifts sent to Greece wrapped in straw, and a ring (note Olympic Rings), may have been sacred ashes for deposit in a Greek type Sun Temple perhaps. Amber is in Egyptian tombs, so they aren't isolated people, depending on date.

I believe Hyperboreans are relative to a Laurel tree, as the type for the Olympic Crown, which I believe later was replaced with the Latin "Olive Tree". Tree choice seems reasonable to that type/s which are regionally available. Zeus is equated with Oak as well, a Hyperborean god. Whats important is a Green-Tree, of any type, where the taller, stronger, and biggest would be the choice for types. Any living at high altitudes seems a good candidate. So long that its within the intent to satisfy the long held traditions of their mythical beliefs, however they were acquired. There is some common concepts shared in phoenix birds, and Tree of Life pantheons worldwide, and some upgrades to the concepts, let say amendments along the way, seen as improvements, such as Hellenization in Macedonia, events that caught-on, then propagated everywhere through the priesthood missionary, your technical spiritual advisers.  

I have an Egyptian burial image of a hanging headless creature, on a staff one could infer is a tree of life. I also have another image of Egypt's creation hieroglyphs, where the sun is rising over an earthen circular mound, similar to ring stones, and henges with their circular trenches and mounds.

 Egypt, anubis4 tomb tree, headless skin.jpg   5.47K   2 downloads

 Egypt, Sunrise_at_Creation, rises over circular mound.jpg   160.18K   2 downloads

I should also note the the shaman-type descriptions for the Norse Tree of Life I believe is consistent to my current knowledge on their other gods including Thor's 12-star symbol. They used the word Siberian, and this would fit within my tribal study, I claim originates in Siberia, as Buryan, or Buryats. However, I don't think this will answer all, because you can't leave out their Tibetan, and Hindu parts, I claim is likely Kassites, Iberians, and Hyperboreans, so that these events are at an earlier domain such as Copper Age, that then carried these - I'll say - similar customs to Baltic regions, where I see a couple of periods, and possible routes, wherein, the mythical concepts bear witness to their respective evolutions, within the Norse pantheon, and one would allow temporal variances as "fact-of-life" for different geological locations, but yet, the common underlying principals retained and preserved for the characters and functions, and symbols involved, if we understand their thinking (culture), when written, or inscribed, built, or assembled. There is also a concept for the nine-sacred-stones (types)in Israel pantheon, and others I don't recall, but India and Egypt may have this number of 9-stone types.

Note that in the case for Georgia, their bird is "emerald" green in color. One should note that emeralds of ancient times are from Egypt, and possibly Austria, and no other earlier emerald mines are known. The Egypt location is next to their port Berenice in the mountains called Sikait-Zabara . I haven't worked out Austria yet, however I have chipped down a myth to help discern this green-phoenix. Unique, as all the other phoenix type birds are fire related colors seems to me.

http://www.edelstein...ionary/smaragd/

The Chaldean (Chaldia in the Pontus, and of Babylon 11th dynasty rulers, Ur) believed the stone contained a goddess (~8-6th cent BC). Biblical Abraham is of Ur of the Chaldeans (Ur Kasdim). In Chaldia-Pontus regions they are connected to the the early metal-ironsmiths here, I think may also be the Hatti, not to be confused with the Hitites.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Arpachshad

I think this emerald green represents green life, so a green-bird would be an equal as they live on the Tree-of-Life, as would be the case for the phoenix type symbolic position in the pantheon, and the tree would also exist on the top of an Earth mountain if one extends the concept, as in the case for Mt. Alborz. The Abraham-Chaldean connection is also interesting, but I want to stay focused in the blog herein. After all, I claim Iberians in the Caucasus is the same as Siberian Buryans, and in Iberian Spain.

I have yet some additional information on Fir Bolg I'll attach soon. They did carry bags of dirt. Emerald dirt, Ruby dirt, and likely Diamond dirt, along with some gold dirt. Dirt is dirt, aye?

See if Embla could be of Ember and Amber. Should be copper-smith folks by way of this Norse birds color. I didn't see this as one of the optional choices given fro the translations. Whats wrong with this picture? GGG guy.

[The Puzzler]

I thought of amber but thats a late word coming from French and probably not connected.
ember... A possible etymology is this imo, if not from emblem or ember root.  

  According to Benjamin Thorpe "Grimm says the word embla, emla, signifies a busy woman, from amr, ambr, aml, ambl, assiduous labour; the same relation as Meshia and Meshiane, the ancient Persian names of the first man and woman, who were also formed from trees.

If the word is from ember, it is possibly 2 smaller words - aem/bla - bla can mean like wind, blow. Because I'm looking for a Nordic etymology first.  
  
Ember Origin:
before 1000;  Middle English  eemer, emeri,  Old English  ǣmerge, ǣmyrie  (cognate with Old Norse  eimyrja,  Old High German  eimuria ), equivalent to ǣm-  (cognate with Old Norse  eimr  steam) + -erge, -yrie,  akin to Old English  ys ( e ) le  ember, Latin  ūrere  to burn

When I read the Mashya and Mashyana  comparison:
The names are from Avestan, nominally transliterated as mašyā and mašyānē, but like other Avestan words also, spellings (and hence transliterations) vary from manuscript to manuscript. Mašyā may thus also appear as maṣ̌iiā or maš́iiā or mašiiāi (and variants).
Originally and etymologically, Mašyā means "mortal being" as Old Persian martya, Persian mard and even Sanskrit martya also mean "mortal" and therefore "man". The root in Avesta and Sanskrit for death is mar/mr, "to die". The causative mâr means "to kill". Its derivatives merethyu/mrtyu means "death"; mareta and maretan means "mortal", and then "man, human being" mashya. See also how Avestan variation between aša and arta does.

Death meant you were mortal, a man - if Ash was the man, them Embla could signify aem/bla=to burn with the wind. The death of the tree, which made it living, mortal. You need air to make fire, the wind is a principle element in fire, so that's why I also think a combination of aem (burn) bla (blow/wind) could work.

Edited by The Puzzler, 24 June 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[the L]

Puzzler little offtopic but since I see that you are swiming very well around languages one question.
What do you think about Sir William Jones and his theory that Greek,Latin,Sanskirt,Germanic and Celt language originate from one language?

[The Puzzler]

 the L, on 25 June 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Puzzler little offtopic but since I see that you are swiming very well around languages one question.
What do you think about Sir William Jones and his theory that Greek,Latin,Sanskirt,Germanic and Celt language originate from one language?

It's certainly possible if we take notice of what the Oera Linda Book says, the other thread I have been in for years and it sounds plausible imo. A type of Proto-Indo European would be the language.

[GGG guy]

The translation/s for Embla is quite interesting. On the other hand, its twisted enough to expect something else to support or corroborate this solution, which I'm working on. If I was to include air/wind as suggested, then a blacksmith uses "bellows", especially to get high enough temperatures to melt metals out of dirt. On hand, I think the other reference from your attachment I commented on still retains an Embla and the word "heat" which I think implies a warm human mortal body vs. the cold (dead) mortal body, which was granted this "Breath of life", herein can be air/wind, and thus allow both a cold mortal man, and the word Ask (Ash) as the fire (death) ash part to hold, yet be encompassed into a Tree of Life pantheon as well. The fact that the Persians had man/woman to be created from trees is a very strong relationship, in my opinion. This corroborates your translation to a degree, and would support a regional relationship in theory, if true.

If I took your "emblem" word, I could think "embellish", and then maybe bellows, i.e. of the type used in a smelter forge. that blows air/wind. to make the fire "hot" - very hot - enough. If the Slavic "Phoenix" bird "glows", this implies "ember" as in fire embers.

Now the "emerald" stone is "green" where Ber, can also mean "green". Herein, the word Embla, could be Em-Bla, wherein, a root could be as Em (?)-Bla (Ber) as green. The word Iberia can mean Green Plains, and if I was to think Iranian mythology, this would be as al-Burjan, and perhaps related to Azer Baijan. If Scythians are horse people, then green plains have this deeper meaning associated to feeding horses, or, farm type animals, i.e. the expression, "greener pastures".

Because there is supposed to be a goddess in the definition for the emerald, I have been pusseing this possible link as a possible root source for the Embla, Norse 1st woman-mortal-animated from a tree. I haven't found this goddess yet, said to be associated with emeralds (which history strongly suggest as of Egyptian-Ethiopian ores at these very early dates, including their Mt. Zebara).

I want to attach a link for Mt. Alborz in Iran, and the myth concerning their blacksmith legend.

http://en.wikipedia...._the_blacksmith

In this myth, there is the foe called Zahhak, where today there are ruins of the Zahhak Castle in Azerbaijan. Here's a link.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Zahhak_Castle

Note they are "archers". Here is the other mountain link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damavand

Because some reading suggest Karelians in North regions have a Sassinid affinity, I think they are also of Kar by Armenia, who I think may be the Carians (Karians), in Anatolia as the Hyperboreans, and Zeus, whom the Iberians may have called Ceus, and that could be the smith's Chaldia in the Pontus, and Chaldeans, another name for Sumer peoples as opposed to Akkadians (Babylon Assyrians) as neighbors, but where Sumer would be at Suvar or Samar, or Shinar in the Bible, or the sea side delta people. This would differentiate the Fertile Crescent Sumerians as a Indus Valley peoples, who can be Scythian Caucasus Iberians, and not neccessarily as Arabic Persians. However, given enough time, I think there is cross enthic mixing likely. Certainly languages were exchanged to some degree.

I found a very good link for the ancient Indus Valley in a movie format, on lacation, and some of the "experts" are included in the archaeology. It has real good date line data, and very good under watar ruin data con-current to on-going studies. They state clearly the dates involved in the current concept/s being explored. They cover my god Kubera of India locations quite well in this video, and its - in my opinion - a very professional take on these ancient people/s. I think this will expand our Indus Valley vs. Fertile Crescent time line information, and you only need to listen to this link.



Because Georgia is said to have a "green" phoenix type bird, said to be related to emeralds, one could make some associations to Northern peoples, however, I'm yet working on this jewel stone.

In light of this, I had mentioned the 9-stone idea for the Norse number-9 in their myth. I think I can clarify this answer as the 9-planet stones of India called Navagraha Stones. There is also the 12-stones in Levant regions.

http://www.fisheater...iousstones.html

Note tribe of Benjamin (wolf and archers).

http://www.hindudevo...-astrology.html

http://en.wikipedia....vagraha_temples

I would strongly suggest this mimics the Norse 9-worlds part of their myth, or corroborates the Norse pantheon suggesting a Hindu concept in orgin, which can be also Sassinids, in my opinion, but not necessarily as Persian linguistics, or as a Hindu part of their language.

Emerald is called "marakata" in Sanskrit, meaning "the green of growing things". Persian into Latin as "smaragdus" corrupted to "emerald" in English. Also "panna" in Hindi. Also a symbol for "Eternal Spring" and/or immortality". These definitions seem to fit real well to Embla's functions, and the Norse myth for water, or wells.

Also, the Norse phoenix type bird named Kokko.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokkola

It doesn't take too long to see "fire" in the city Kokkola Coat of Arms in Norway. Bonfire is the early smelting method, and difficult to detect as smelting in archaeological digs. The latter smelter eith a furnace, and perhaps bellows are needed to discern metal working, Slag deposits in the strata can suggest this, but bonfires leave little trace allowing for carbon rich dirt strata, of layer. I think Burrian's Hill in Scotland (Iron Age smelter) had slag, and quarry rock (small scale), and I don't have a date for this. I think the furnace itself was lacking, and it was in a farming zone today where some of the site was disturbed, or even scattered a bit, making the archaeology limited by these factors. I doubt anything organic was found to accurately obtain a carbon 14 date test. The hill has the correct name for my key tribe on Scotland.

I also want to expand on the Fir Bolg of Ireland, I claim as blacksmiths, where Fir Bolg means :fire rock, or fire stone. This attachment is quite a chore to read, and I only need a fraction of the research given. I think one could skim read these parts out, albeit, unless one really likes this sort of historical research a whole lot.

http://www.leitrim-r...avin/lavin.html

Patrick Lavin, as myself, is tracing his surname roots, and this leads to the Fir Bolg part of his personal history in Ireland. I will relate some of his factors that allows more detail of Fir Bolg people, and perhaps, a time line, and source origin of these folks.

Fir Bolg can be:

Baronies of Boyle and Ballintuber North in County Roscommon, Kilmore, Clooncraff, Ardcarne,

Tir Briuin na Sinna (part of Tri-Tuathas (3-counties)

Area called Slieve Bawn, ir Bolg stronghold.

Part of 2nd-3rd wave migrants as Belgae from England, (I would call Eburones of Belgium, in Yorkshire (Eboricum).

Part of 4th wave migrants of N. Iberia or S. Gaul. (Note this could be Basque people too, but I suggest Ebrones of Evora (Ebora) Portugal, or Berones in N. Spain, on the Basque map attached early in this blog).

Mentions Greece Pritenic Islands for Ireland, and Cruitin tribes, and the 600BC date.

Romans called them Picti.

The Euerni (Ptolemy as Erainn, for later words Hibernia, and/or Ireland)- as Manapii, Bolgi, Belgae (Note Bel-fire rites), and Fir Bolgs.

Fir Bolg wielded improved weapons, and traced their origins to the goddess Bolg. (I haven't this goddess yet, but have found a Buri- "rock god").

Menapii as a Belgium-Celt confederation from N. Gaul, or Belgium. (The Romans annihilated the Eburones in Belgium territories, and burnt down their cities during their Gaul war genocide type activities).

Gae Bolg, or Gayborg - Celtic - a barbed spear. Brings justice for a word like barbarian.

Fir Bolgs are also described as early gods of Ireland.

Tailtiu, foster mother of Lugh (recall the Ptolemy's Lugi-Buri tribe). and last queen of the Fir Bolg, which I rhink implies in Ireland. Lugh is the "master of many arts - skilled one". Goibniu is - "master of the forge" - "weapons maker" for Tuatha.

Fir Bolg are also related to Tara Hill where there is reference to goddess Bolg, that lost battles here and also went to Aran Isles.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Hill_of_Tara

It is said that Fir Bolg is responsible for bringing the new "Bronze Age" in Ireland. My data would likely support this statement.

Not simple, but this research seems very consistant for my key tribal historical trace, very neatly.

I need yet to study Embla before i can make up my mind on interpretation of her name, and functions. I thought these other factors may aid in this determination, and also the question for these Black Irish folks. If of Vinca Culture origin, then we could perhaps have a much earlier date than the Fir Bolg would support, albeit, even if they still are of the same ancestors to each other, yet.

I think this is showing its face, ever so slowly. How does one "package" my concepts? How do you relay this to others? For now, I think we are moving forward, and I hope to cover my single tribe with sufficient support data to allow plausibility for my theory on them. Thanks for the comments, and see how these factors may work into the landscape. I will yet work these factors myself as its getting quite interesting. GGG guy.

[Abramelin]

An aside, GGG.

You said in your former post that the Irish Fir Bolg meant 'people of the sack'.

And alternative explanation is that it meant 'Belgae people'.

It's interesting to note that two neighbouring Irish tribes were called "Manapi" and "Cauci". In Belgium there was a tribe called "Menapii" and at the North Sea coast of Germany there lived a tribe called "Chauci".

 Menapi_Chauci.jpg   113.69K   10 downloads

 Menapi_Chauci2.gif   55.45K   10 downloads

Quote

The Menapians must have been closely related to the Frisians, and at a certain time they inhabited an area from Calais (France) up to Leiden (Netherlands). They spoke a language closely related to Old Frisian. They probably settled in east Ireland, and lived there as neighbours of the Cauci who may have come from coastal Germany.

The Chauci, neighbours of the Frisians and (often) close allies, had all the characteristics (according to Tacitus and others) of the OLB Fryans/Frisians. They were both known as very civilized, peacefull... and as sea raiders.

Both the Menapii and Chaucii must have been very influential tribes, the Chaucii even being dominant at sea, and both connected with Ireland

http://www.unexplain...184645&st=10125

The Belgae were a group of tribes living in northern Gaul, on the west bank of the Rhine, in the 3rd century BC, and later also in Britain, and possibly even Ireland. They gave their name to the Roman province of Gallia Belgica, and very much later, to the modern country of Belgium.

The general consensus among linguists is that the ethnic name Belgae comes from the Proto-Celtic root *belg- or *bolg- meaning "to swell (particularly with anger/battle fury/etc.)", cognate with the Old English verb belgan, "to be angry" (from Proto-Germanic *balgiz), derived ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European root *bhelgh- "to swell, bulge, billow"). Thus, a Proto-Celtic eethnic name *Bolgī could be interpreted as "The People who Swell (particularly with anger/battle fury)".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae

Here in the Netherlands we still have a saying, "gebelgd zijn", and it means, 'to be angry/agitated'.

Maybe a connection with the Latin "bello"... the "Bello Gallico", or the Gallic War.

And if my memory serves me right, the German verb "bellen" means 'to bark'.

Edited by Abramelin, 27 June 2012 - 05:42 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Fir Bolg = fearsome (fir to fear) noisemakers(root of all blow words inc. bellow = to bellow out, to call out, also a noise a bull makes, cows bellow.) imo.

These types are renown for yelling and hollering when going into battle.

Fir could mean 'man' as well and that relates to Latin vir= virile (a swollen noisy bull) - could also be a root in Wralda's name.

So they could be 'men of noise' as well as 'fearsome noisemakers'.

Old Irish takes fir to fer, which is man and also fear.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fir
http://en.wiktionary...i/fer#Old_Irish
Don't forget bells, bulls and boulders. This is one of my favourite words to investigate etymologically.

Buller = noisy (note Swedish) - this is a boulder. (They were in rivers with water gushing over them and were noisy - bullerstone

BULL - and also boulder...
-------------------------------------------

English
Alternative forms

• bowlder (dated)

Etymology

From Middle English bulder, possibly from Swedish bullersten (“noisy stone”), or possibly from Dutch bolder
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boulder

------------------------

Middle English BULDER = Swedish BULLER = noisy (possibly from Dutch bolder/English bold) PS: If the Balda Sea was the related to this word it could mean noisy, loud, bellowing sea..just saying, may be another alternative.

Probably builder too. (Frisian bold=house)

I went looking for something in the OLB. The word NOISE. This word may be old Swedish (form of Fryan) that has not gone through to Frisian, it's not in the Frisian dictionary (or any variation of it that I could see.)
I'm not sure how exactly to read the OLB sentence here but it corresponds with this sentence...

The watchman on the tower hearing the noise, lighted his torch.
Thi utkik thêr mênde thater awet hêrde sta^ek sin balle vp.

Bull = buhl.
Gola fon al hira ysera wêpne birâwath a^end to tha^et lesta lik en buhl by thêre nôse omme lêid.

Bolla is bread in Frisian, bread rises, swells up - like bulls and balls

OLB has buhl - West Frisian here is bolle - like bread - originally all meaning related 'to blow'.
Etymology 1
Middle English bul(e), from late Old English bula (only in place names), from Proto-Germanic *bulōn (compare West Frisian bolle, Dutch bul, German Bulle, Old Norse boli), from Proto-Indo-European *bhl̥no (compare Old Irish ball (“limb”), Latin follis (“bellows, leather bag”), Thracian βόλινθος (bólinthos, “wild bull”), Albanian bolle (“testicles”), Ancient Greek φαλλός (phallós, “penis”)), from Proto-Indo-European *bhel (“to blow”). More at blow.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bull

Just my 2c.

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 June 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Abramelin]

The 'fir' in Fir Bolg must mean 'people' or 'men' because there were more Irish tribes that had 'Fir' as first part of their names.

Maybe we could think of 'werewolf', which means nothing but 'manwolf'.

"Wr_alda" (as the name is also written in the OLB) could then mean 'the Old Man'.... and not 'the Overly Old One'.
But 'wr' or 'wer' would be a noun with 'alda' as adjective, and that is not the normal OLB word order.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 27 June 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[The Puzzler]

 Abramelin, on 27 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

The 'fir' in Fir Bolg must mean 'people' or 'men' because there were more Irish tribes that had 'Fir' as first part of their names.

Maybe we could think of 'werewolf', which means nothing but 'manwolf'.

"Wr_alda" (as the name is also written in the OLB) could then mean 'the Old Man'.... and not 'the Overly Old One'.
But 'wr' or 'wer' would be a noun with 'alda' as adjective, and that is not the normal OLB word order.




.

Hmm. How about the variation of TRUE. The second WER here - wêr. It might equate to TRUE ELDER or something...  (like the only true God type thing)

*we-r

, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Mann; ne. man; Vw.: s. -jeld; Hw.: vgl. got. waír, an.

verr (1), ae. wer (1), as. wer* (1), ahd. wer* (2); E.: germ. *wera-, *weraz, st. M.

(a), Mann; idg. *øÂros, Adj., M., kräftig, Mann, Pokorny 1177; s. idg. *øei- (3),

*øeØý-, *øÆ-, V., gehen, erstreben, ersehnen, erjagen, wollen (V.), kräftig sein (V.),

Pokorny 1123; L.: Hh 127a, Rh 1136a

wÐr

* 12, afries., Adj.: nhd. wahr, wahrheitsgetreu, wirklich, gültig; ne. true,

truthful; Vw.: s. -haf-t-e-lik, -haf-t-ich, -haf-t-ic-hê-d, -hê-d, -lik, -lÆk-man-n; Hw.:

vgl. got. *wÐreis, an. vÏrr (2), ae. wÚr (3), as. hwõr*, wõr* (1), ahd. wõr* (1); Q.:

R, H, W, E, B; E.: germ. *wÐra-, *wÐraz, *wÚra-, *wÚraz, *wÐrja-, *wÐrjaz,

*wÚrja-, *wÚrjaz, Adj., zuverlässig, wahr, freundlich; idg. *øeræs-, Adj., freundlich,

vertrauenswert, wahr, Pokorny 1165; s. idg. *øer- (11), *øerý-, Sb., Freundlichkeit,

Pokorny 1165; W.: nfries. wier, Adj., wahr, wirklich; W.: saterl. wer, Adj., wahr,

wirklich; W.: nnordfries. wer, Adj., wahr, wirklich; L.: Hh 127b, Rh 1135b; R.: at

wÐr-a, afries., Adv.: nhd. fürwahr; ne. indeed, truly; L.: Hh 151b


PS: I thought I was in the OLB thread, I might just add this post there, see what Otharus thinks.

Edited by The Puzzler, 28 June 2012 - 03:02 AM.

[The Puzzler]

 Abramelin, on 27 June 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

The 'fir' in Fir Bolg must mean 'people' or 'men' because there were more Irish tribes that had 'Fir' as first part of their names.

Maybe we could think of 'werewolf', which means nothing but 'manwolf'.

"Wr_alda" (as the name is also written in the OLB) could then mean 'the Old Man'.... and not 'the Overly Old One'.
But 'wr' or 'wer' would be a noun with 'alda' as adjective, and that is not the normal OLB word order.




.

I think also that Fir is men. Seems likely.

The origin of the Fir Bolg name is the subject of some dispute. Older commentators consider them the "men of (the god/dess) Bolg" or "men of bags" (compare Irish bolg meaning 'belly', 'bag').

To blow, I'm thinking - leather bag, to blow - bagpipes. Typically Scottish now, but the word is actually in the OLB.

They could have been men of the bagpipes.

The Image of Irelande...


http://en.wikipedia....e_-_plate02.jpg

[The Puzzler]

For GGG on this one, bellows are mandatory in ancient times to get a hot enough heat for metal working, so I could see they may be men of the bellows too, men who were metal workers.

The surname Bolger means one who sold leather bags, wallets etc.

Edited by The Puzzler, 28 June 2012 - 03:38 AM.