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Trojans were Basques?


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#586    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:17 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 27 September 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

According to some scholars, the Trojans were probably related to the Hittites and spoke an Anatolian language called Luvian.


At a Symposium held at Bryn Mawr College in October 1984 linguist Prof. Watkins suggests that "Steep Wilusa", a city mentioned on a Hittite tablet which was written in Luvian, could well be "Steep llios" of the lliad. "Priya-Muwas" sounds very much like "Priamos". The Luvian "Aleksandus" may well be "Aleksandros", the second name of the Trojan prince Paris.

How can we ignore these resemblences? Especially if Homer tells us in the lliad that the Trojans and their allies spoke different languages and dialects.

"Hector, I urge you above all to do as I say. In his great city, Priam has many allies. But these foreigners all talk different languages. Let their own captains in each case take charge of them, draw up their countrymen, and lead them into battle.
(lliad II. 800-805)

"...Such was the babel that went up from the great Trojan army, which hailed from many parts, and being without a common language used many different cries and calls.
(lliao IV. 437-439)

That means the Trojans and their allies were certainly not Greek-speaking people. The names of many heroes mentioned in the lliad were local Anatolian names. Those which sound Greek were either adopted or made up. For example "Astyanax", son of Hector, was a Greek name, but Hector would call him "Skamandrias". "Hector" too could well have born a real local Anatolian name.

http://www.google.co...r1mnvtkOLCcn7g
Thanks for adding that. I am aware of most of the info and story on the Trojans and what I propose is that the Trojans - a confederacy of rogue states of the Hittites - had moved into the area from Western Europe via Balkans.

Alexandros as mentioned in the Hittite letters is more likely Priams father or grandfather going on dates.

All the names have been obscured in the change of language - where I find the similarities is in the Basque word meanings indicating some of the names used in the areas were related to Basque.

Gordion, even though a Phrygian area, was allied to Troy and Priams wife was Phrygian is imo a name coming from Basque for for cart, which is the symbol of Gordion itself, the ox cart - cart is gurdi - the concept is relative to hurdy gurdy - where the gurdy means going around, like a wheel, hence the name of the cart.

Ili means city. (so does hiri) Ili-os/Ili-um -Troy is always known as the city of Troy. Wilusa could just be a local variation of the original language spoken in the area.

Ibai means river, is it just co-incidence the area of the Phasis River was known as Iberia, as Spain was?

I havent put my finger on it yet - but I will.

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#587    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:25 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 27 September 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:



Some scholars also speculate that the Trojans were related to the Etruscan peoples in Italy, and that they may have come originally from the steppes of Central Asia before settling in Anatolia.  That would also mean that their original language was related to Turkish and Finnish.

The city of Troy may have been conquered more than once by different groups of people, rather than there being just one single event called the Trojan War of Greeks vs, Trojans.  

http://www.google.co...bxwHUSt_vxgPZXQ
The whole thing is very interesting imo.

The Etruscans, if not indigenous, were from Lycia imo and left c. 800-750BC due to extreme famine, same time as Doric Therans, from famine, colonised Libya at Cyrene.

Aeneus is the ancestor of the Romans, not the Etruscans.

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#588    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:30 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 27 September 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Was this Phaistos disc, found in Crete in 1908, the actual language of the Trojans or related to it?

Posted Image



I don't think so. My own opinion is it comes from somewhere that is harder to detect more writing or symbols as it has, like Libya or Western Africa.

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#589    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:38 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 27 September 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

OK, will check on that.
Do you know of an article or something that explains more on the actual mutating of the genes to create the different groups, I'd like to learn what triggers the mutations.

No. Nothing on specific triggers. Although I do know that climate can be one trigger. The need to produce Vitamin D was also another trigger as well as a need for Northern Europeans to digest milk. So it's not just any one thing specifically.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#590    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:41 AM

They look somewhat like the Luwian hieroglyphs I know, but maybe from somewhere else, actually communicating back to the Luwians or Hittites in another different style of similar pictograph language.

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#591    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:42 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 September 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

No. Nothing on specific triggers. Although I do know that climate can be one trigger. The need to produce Vitamin D was also another trigger as well as a need for Northern Europeans to digest milk. So it's not just any one thing specifically.

cormac
Something I'd like to know more about, that's for sure. If I find anything with some answers, I'll swing it your way for interest.


Edit: In the above post I said 'pictograph language', which was a silly phrase, I meant pictograph writing/glyphs to communicate.

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 September 2012 - 07:44 AM.

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#592    GGG guy

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:49 PM

I've spent some time reviewing the Serer religion on the West African regions, and the various stone-circle monoliths. The Serer peoples are limited in oldest dates to just prior to the time of Christ. Their burials around the ring-stones have provided this date, but evidence is weak as to whether or not they built these stone monoliths, or, back-migrated here where these stone were already completed by people whom must have left the area, or perhaps, the territory was taken by force, and these stone-builders fled, or, were exterminated.

The Serer religion is quite compelling as it appears to elevate a dog-wolf (jackal ?) to a high status in their creation pantheon. Their "DOG" was created before man and women, and all other animals accordingly, and the dog star Sirius is also included. The data I've previously shown in the archaeology in Caucasus Georgia predates all Serer timeline information for the star Sirius and a sky zodiacal-dog by many millenniums. This suggest diffusion of the concept into this West African territory, and their timeline would suggest to me a sea-people around the North African seas that then ventured through the Straights of Gibraltar to West African Senegal river, which runs through the heart of the monolith region in question. The 5-pointed Sirius star symbol is consistent with Egypt, but I'm not certain of a Georgian/Caucasus symbol for this star.

For my "key research tribe", I think Burundi in Central Africa is more workable as I have traced oracles here, and I have found possible connections to Ethiopian regions, which is territorially significant to yDNA "Adam", and mtDNA "Eve" althoug, their timelines don't exactly match.

There are some other ring-stones in South Africa, and a zodiacal version called Adam's Calendar. I'll attach a link for this, and it includes a video relative to the actual people that discovered this.

http://www.bibliotec..._annunaki34.htm

I'll use the later dates from this at ~25,000 BC.

I also want to suggest a date limit because human vocal chords are believed to have occurred after ~60,000 BC, and I suggest actual conversation around 40,000 BC in its crudest forms in the cave-man environment. If we follow the idea of diffusion in global migrations, then I will follow this DNA ancestor to Siberia, in Buret (a location name also in the Rift Valley Africa) and Malta. I have no association for the name Buret, nor, whether or not its coincidental. I say this because the African type Grimaldi "Venus" icons dug up in Siberia suggests an African origin. These two sites are carbon dated to 22,000 to 25,000 BC, currently. My contention is that tribal names would be available after ~17,000 BC in this Siberian region, that the peoples are from African ancestors at this date frame period, and due to the ending of the Ice Age, this region was dynamically changing, and the "land-bridge" in the Bering would have been there, but soon to be flooded as the oceans rose due to melting ice. Herein I source the Buryan tribal name, and, as a people linguistically and culturally capable of having multiple families that form the first groups-clans-tribes in the region, and could carry conversation, and they left the cave lifestyle during this time period. To say, my tracing of a tribal name as Buryan, Burjan, or, Hyperborean starts here which I claim is after ~17,000 BC.

The standing stones can be regionally at Tuvan (Central Asia-South Siberia-Bactria), which also follows a diffusion out of Africa.

I found a pretty good map relative to the Tarim Mummies of Gobi Desert regions. The linen these mummies wore matches linen in Austria found in the regions of Salzberg, where you also find the earlier European mines (salt), and this part of the linen timeline sits at ~1500 BC. The older Tarim mummey version of remains is ~1850 BC. My personal yDNA as Bohemian is said to be in Central Europe at ~1500 BC +/- 350 years. Not much wiggle room according to Cormac's type of thinking. However, my personal yDNA fits this like a glove, and is locational correct in all of these locations as well. This can be associated to yDNA Adam in Ethiopia, and this time line also fits the Siberian diffusion, and the geological Ice Age. Siberian wolf-domestic-dog DNA at ~12,000 BC allows domestic dogs as well, before the current known dates on the origin of the dog-star Sirius.

This link is specific to the Tarim mummy linen. Date for Austria is on p.21, and the reference map on page 35. This map mimics my key tribe migrations pretty much straight as the crow flies from Siberia to Europe.

http://books.google....y linen&f=false

My tribe would follow their map within the gray zone shown from Siberia to Austria along the Black Sea following The Danube River to Austria. This would then be my ancestors from 1500 BC for a R1a1 yDNA haplogroup, and likely to be my ancestors in Europe. Because the oldest Tarim mummy is nicknamed as "Bohemian Burgher"(means rich or noble), I believe I can show this nickname to be of a Buryan tribe, and indeed, the Bohemians this refers to. This name was derived solely on looks because this mummy looks so European, as undeniable based on skeletal form appearance of the head an face, which are quite well preserved. Otherwise, I doubt a typical mummy actually allows this type of appearance matching to a race based on head-skull variations amongst races.

From this map, many neighboring territories could in theory be included into a Siberian shaman type of difussion into India, America, Mesopotamia...etc., without being the same people, or a small number of people that were assimilated into the main poulation/s. I think a lot of this has occurred. Herein is my attempts to "isolate" my key tribe, and as the larger "core" ethos, and when and where this particular group actually migrated, not the beliefs, nor smaller detached groups or families, but the "core" tribes activities, if this can be assimilated fully. I think is is tenable.

Puzzler's Hermes part I think is workable, and an African-Crete type connection I think is a factor, but I can't find the connection glue yet according to my type of tribe-concept and current personal knowledge. The Saharan Desert locations I've previously given are my best possible locational names thus far, but this Adams Calendar definitely puts a ripple through the research. My key location is the Red Sea and the Buri peninsula. However, Human remains here can be dates typical of early Africans that 1st left Africa. I doubt a tribe name I'm seeking was in existence then, so I don't have an answer for this name and location yet, nor a date this was named, nor by whom.

I think a global model is required to answer some of these questions mainly because local-concentric studies fall short for assimilation into the scope of all peoples or ethos in many territories, but where some also can be highly genetically more pure or homogeneous, such as Australia may be, due to Isolation territorial zones. When the seas rose after the LGM period, both isolation, and coastal cities flooding under water would induce migrations. The Buret and Malta huts were built of mammoth bones for framework. These have been dated sites, so there is reliable information none-the-less to work with, but, one has to be crafty to assimilate what appears to be ramdomized local-concentric theories into the larger global conditioned theory. Mine is perhaps "one" of these. There should be many of these types of theories under the guise of "diffusion". They in time should sum into each other to finally produce the big picture which I refer to as the "Grand Global Genome" (GGG theory), I devised this name for to consider this larger global landscape, and the plug in a single (known) tribes name as well. This name also implies that DNA would also fit this architecture, as a discrete science, and, all other forensics should comform as well.

I'm pretty much content with the Tarim mummy map as a model for my theory to follow, if this tribal name is being studied, or its affiliates. Ironically, this can lead to Austria, but also the Baltic Northern seas, and still carry a yDNA R1a1 marker, so this also requires definitions if one was to encompass all R1a1 yDNA global zones. This suggest I may have to wait a long time to actually bring every associated nuance and region to fruition, in my global model. My main purpose though is to just define that which leads to me, and my DNA, and surname which appears to me as achievable to a high degree of certainty.

I hope these additional factors may push our blog forward. For me the name Iberian is an issue, and has been for a long time. Thanks for the information, and I'm yet thinking on the African influences because I think Hyperboreans are within the scope of some of these location and historical records. India and the Southern Seas - ditto. See what you think on Adam's Calendar. Be back soon, GGG guy.



#593    GGG guy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:02 PM

I found a counter-proposal to the Adam's Calendar archaeology by Andrew Collins. I'll attach this other examination where I tend to agree with his approximations concerning the ring stone as a sidereal alignment. For now I'm neutral on this site, however, references to ancient gold mines here is of interest to me as I'm tracing "blacksmith" occupations as part of my key tribe concepts.

http://andrewcollins...xsa_4_adams.htm

I think I can get to the roots for the expression "ashes", and the Armenians are recorded as "ash worshipers" in Biblical time. This relates to Noah, and also the Armenian "Apostolic Church" because they are considered the 1st to adopt Christianity in 301 AD, and their roots trace back to the Apostles' Thaddaeus and Bartholomew, who preached in Armenia in 40-60 AD.

I'll attach a web page called Armenian Pagan Past.

http://www.ginosi.co...nian-pagan-past

From this we find the following more ancient factors, and before Zoroastrianism periods, where they are described to be both fire and ash worshipers. I will extract in short form the text I'll use here.

Their head god as Ar (an IE common god), also as Vanatar, then with Persian influence as Aramazd, which then also later identified with Zeus (a Hyperborean god).

Their sacred animals - as legend of Ervand and Ervas - who were born of woman and bull. In Bronze Age as deer cult of Mother Earth Goddess. Later as Christianized Christian Mother of God as bear, cat, and dog.

They worshiped fire before Zoroastrianism. Christain authors' call them "ash-worshipers" which to them means substance of the sun/lightning, or fire-heat-light, which is highly respected. A home hearth fire (I read as a home fireplace with a chimney) is purified, or made "new" by restarting using "sparks" from a rock, or flint stone. Armenian words for fire are "hur", as Greek "pur", and/or "krak" as Armenian "jrag" (candle), which is Persian "cirag". Could it be the the Hurrians (Subarians) are fire worshipers? Here we obtain; sparks, lightning, or the "spark of life concept".

Lets pick this apart further. I'll attach web page called Ananikian's Armenian History, and lean on Chapter VII.

http://rbedrosian.com/ananik4b.htm

I will extract the information that fits are blog.

Persian "frobag", or, "farnbag" means "fire". Armenian as "hurbak". A Persian type fire-altar was in Bagavan, which means "town of the gods". Apparently, both Persians and Armenians held worship at the 7-fire springs of Baku, and old province of Phaitakaran. In the myths, they hold fire as "sister", and water, or a spring as "brother", which I call "holy wells", but here as "fire-springs".

Armenian "Candlemas" has the intent of "Purification of the Blessed Virgin" held on February 13th. In this tradition, they create "new ashes" by bundling fire fuel as "stalks-straw-and thistles", which are kindled from a candle of the altar...after which, the ashes are carried to the fields to promote fertility. Two things com to mind here; 1) the Hyperborean gifts to Delos, and the Scotland thistle we've previously mentioned herein, relative to burs.

I'll attach an Armenian wiki page for their mythology. From here we can find the dog named Aralez, described as one of their oldest gods. A dog-like creature with the power to resuscitate fallen warriors, or, to resurrect the dead by licking wounds clean. the ash-worship is also described herein.

http://en.wikipedia....enian_mythology

Now I want to address the Georgian phoenix bird, and as green in color. I'll attach a web link to a wiki page called Common Pheasant.

http://en.wikipedia....Common_Pheasant

Note the "emerald green color" I'll add in another green version.

http://en.wikipedia..../Green_Pheasant

The pheasant is common to native Georgia, actually in Colchus regions, where the birds name comes from the town Phasis, now Poti. (there is a town called Burjan near Poti, but I have little data on this, but was said to be good hunting territory, which I read about in a Russian journal set of notes from a traveling diplomat, likely from the 1800's-AD). This is also exemplified in their expression "Phasianos ornis" which means "bird of the river Phasis".

I'll speculate on this data a bit. The Kassite king Burna Buriash II, also spelled as Buriashi could be Ishtar, or ash-god in Sumerian context. Or, as ash-Ar, which is akin to a Russian Assur, or as Ass (ash)- ur (Ar god). If Burna Buriash II is a Kassite, and they have the storm-god Burias, some suggest as roots to Boreas, then Burias could be as Buri-Ash, where Buri and Bori are Northern peoples, but linkable to Caucasus Georgia and Armenia. I think this pheasant may be the correct "phoenix" model for this region.

Here is also another page on the more standard global phoenix colors, being copper-red-orange-crimson type colors as a "fire bird" that reduces itself to ashes, then is re-born.

http://angela-michel...ub/Phoenix-Bird

This page expresses an Eastern relevance to the pheasant bird.

I think this helps on a few of the questions. My remaining question would be; did the Basque people, or Spain's Iberian people practice ash-worship?

The Lake Van kingdoms should be part of my key tribe regionally, at Sumeria time frames, and as bothe Burjan (Buryan) and Hyperborean tribal type names, which I contend are the same people.

One other speculation would be Azerbaijan. If sister Fire, and brother Spring (water) is regionally available, the Azer-fire, bai-water, jan-god (sky-god), or. Fire-Water-God as the meaning in the name. This suggest that the peoples did in fact diffuse the belief system here, likely around Noah's time. Water was also believed to be an underground lake, i.e., the water of the "underworld lake" also defined in the myths as such.

This I think gets to the roots of "ashes" and the associated myths. Is there an earlier date, or race of people to substitute? I think my concept is doing real good, and if earlier myths than this exist, I would look in Tibet-Siberia for this possibility, if I trace my key tribe backwards.

This is my take for now. Comments welcome, GGG guy.  









#594    GGG guy

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

As it turns out, there is a relation of this Armenian ashes and their practice also being found in Basque territories. I'll attach a web page called Euzkadi - Basque Country, and the section about 1/3 way into this page fro their myths and legends.

http://www.dametzdes...om/euzkadi.html

I'll lift the data from this of concern herein; "the house is protected against evil spirits by fire. laurel, ash leaves or dried thistle heads." Herein, the thistle is described as "equzki-lorea" which means literally, "flower of the sun".

So there you have it, in Basque language, and myths, GGG guy.


#595    GGG guy

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 09:59 AM

I've found some information concerning the suggestion from Puzzler concerning the Vinca Culture in or around Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, or Balkan regions, and the early copper-smith association of Eastern Europe. A Buryan-Burjan-Hyperborean tribe is more probable as the "Boian Culture" not only by this name, but by the archaeology and several regional names, in my opinion. They date in four phases between 4300 BC thru 3500 BC. The Boian people are the Boii, or Bohemians later. the name relates to Bayern-Bavaria.  The Boians were in Gaul, Italy, and other places in later eras. They are also linked more directly on the North Black Sea regions, and the south and the Aegean, in later "blended" cultures, as can be seen in traded goods found in the archaeology burials, and such. They were copper-smiths during the stone tool transition to metal tools, in the later phases associated with the evolution of their skills.

If we look at the location names for archaeology concerning "Boian Culture" we obtain my tribal ingredients as well. I will attach a few Boian pages and we need to keep in mind, they should be a "wolf-cult" people, if I'm correct with my own tribal definitions. I don't have issue with a wolf-Boian Culture, as I believe I can demonstrate, shortly.

First, the Boian Culture, and some dates.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Boian_culture

http://books.google....aeology&f=false

The following book by Patrick Boll as; "The Boian Culture - an Overview" is taken from a seminar paper. Note the pottery sketch, wherein, this sample dug up actually has wolf teeth on it. Also note the image of the pottery in the wiki page attached. The rectangle window-looking frame on this pot may also have a "wolf head" type image. However, the pot looks so old and worn, it could just be corrosion  which appears to picture this, or perhaps another type animal, or creature.

In Bulgaria, the word "bor" can mean "pine". Kind of ironic at this stage of our discussion. Anyway, there is more in the name Borovo. I'll attach a link for the archaeology here.

http://en.wikipedia....Borovo_Treasure
http://en.wikipedia....orovo,_Bulgaria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borovo

Note Borovo also in Croatia, in the region called Vukovar, where Vuko means wolf. I've also mentioned Alexander the Great of Veria (Beria) Macedonia, and the 16-pointed "Varian Star" of his father's burial and tomb archaeology, which is tied to his father's family connections and burials in Bulgaria-Romanian regions, as well. This then aids in his Macedonian trace for some of his ancestors, relative to his father.

Caeser refer to the Boians whose king "Boiorix" lead the Cimbri. I would define them here as Eburones, and/or Fir Bolg. Boian here is Boii. Wiki translates Boii as Germanic Baiovari tribe where (Ger. baio-warioz), or Boii warrior. Also suggest Bayern/Bavaria. I would suggest Buryan as Bayern, and can connect to Burjan family name in Austria at 1300 AD. Defines Boii as a Gallic tribe in the later Iron Age period (~390 BC). Note there is also an inscription in a cave in Norway which uses the word Bavarian (in some form) and is associated with a lager type ship image with multiple ores. Thus, Bavarians should be Viking sailors too, in my opinion. This could allow another definition for the "Fir-Bolg" to mean "Men of Boats". I have references for this idea, however, I will stick to the Fire-Stone/Rock "blacksmiths", whom carried bags of dirt - as miners. If a Borean of a Boian Culture in Bulgaria, then their word "bor" as "pine" could mean "men of the forest". Fir Bolg could be "men of forest" allowing for Danish "fir" to mean either "fire" or "tree" as in the Douglas Fir pine tree.

However, I believe I've identified the proper Cimbri sub-group due to this Boian variant. Afterall, I believe it was the Fir Bolg in Ireland and Scotland known to posses the armor and metal swords when they arrived. An Iron Age event time line for these aspects of their evolution. Boians in Bulgaria/Romania are Copper Age, and earlier Stone Age phases.

If we follow the "ash" concept, the the "Asher" tribe in Lebanon, and of the 10-tribes in the Bible would be my connection as Boian related. This is associated to my other regional data for Beirut, and Phoenician connections at Tyre. These were Asher tribal domains, not that this is known, but based on city locations that have been identified from the ancient writings. Thus, maps showing the regions for the tribes I think can be figurative somewhat. The Asher tribe unified with Saul, a Benjamite, when Israel was first formed. They weren't actually stitched in fully as governing states would suggest, and reading suggests they were rather allied, or confederated into this transaction, which is also an Iron Age event. The Egyptians wrote of them too, however, the translations are aren't clear, compared to the territorial "Asher" tribe domains.

I think that Asher name means ashes, and this can trace to Armenia as demonstrated herein, and they are also Sea People, which had ships, in Hebrew as "men of Uash" from "the Weshus group of Sea Peoples" said to be a corruption of Asher, of Asherah, or Assur-Ashur, the chief Assyrian deity in Sumeria-Babylon. This would follow what I've already suggested by way of gods, Sea People, and Lebanon myths, and to include the Biblical definitions. Should be the folks in Bad Tibira, Sumeria's "blacksmiths".

I'll attach a Boii migrations in Europe. I think they are also on the Isle called Boeotia, and Delos in the Aegean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

I'm quite comfortable with this Bulgarian-Boian theme as a connection for my key tribal data points and dates. This will also allow a very similar ancient people to the Vinca Culture as Puzzler suggested, but this neighboring Boian Culture would fit real well into my research and tribal name/s.

Also, on Puzzlers Etruscan gold pendant image she attached pages back, I think I can add to the definitions. The outer circular ring of birds is divided into two halves as 7+7=14 birds around the circumference. I don't think this is zodiacal, nor a 14-month calendar, even though 13-month calendars did exist during ancient times. This represents the 7 sacrficed men-boys, and 7 sacrificed women-girls in the Minotaur myth, of Crete. the bird represent the carriers of their souls the the Upper-Aether gods realm. The three birds lined up at the top of the pendant likely represents the 3-headed god such as the Celtic Lugh, I contend can be part of the Lugi-Buri tribal name association on Ptolomys maps around Bohemia (Boii) at ~200AD. The Boians were part of the Etruscans in my opinion, and followed the Danube River from the Black Sea to Bohemia.

Indeed, the Boians should be a "wolf tribe" people as I think I'm demonstrating throughout this blog. I also believe I can associate the Buri tribe under this umbrella, equally so. This is readily a Hyperborean domain as South Ukrainian in some myth writings, and, a Getae (German) region, and, as Thracians of Bulgarian and Romanian ancient occupants.

Hopefully, this info will spark new interest in this blog. This also differentiates Basque regions somewhat, as to tribal domains, provided by the Boii map in Europe. Thats if I'm indeed correct in tribal root name identification, and, we make Hyperboreans "real" people - as well. GGG guy.













#596    jaylemurph

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostGGG guy, on 03 October 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

I've spent some time reviewing the Serer religion on the West African regions, and the various stone-circle monoliths. The Serer peoples are limited in oldest dates to just prior to the time of Christ. Their burials around the ring-stones have provided this date, but evidence is weak as to whether or not they built these stone monoliths, or, back-migrated here where these stone were already completed by people whom must have left the area, or perhaps, the territory was taken by force, and these stone-builders fled, or, were exterminated.

The Serer religion is quite compelling as it appears to elevate a dog-wolf (jackal ?) to a high status in their creation pantheon. Their "DOG" was created before man and women, and all other animals accordingly, and the dog star Sirius is also included. The data I've previously shown in the archaeology in Caucasus Georgia predates all Serer timeline information for the star Sirius and a sky zodiacal-dog by many millenniums. This suggest diffusion of the concept into this West African territory, and their timeline would suggest to me a sea-people around the North African seas that then ventured through the Straights of Gibraltar to West African Senegal river, which runs through the heart of the monolith region in question. The 5-pointed Sirius star symbol is consistent with Egypt, but I'm not certain of a Georgian/Caucasus symbol for this star.

Not dog-wolf or dog-jackal: Basset Hound.

They were Our Past Basset Masters, who descended upon us to bring us Art and Science and Preserved Pork Products, then ascended back to their Basset-y Celestial Domain Where Hams Are Quite Prevalent. Their Holy and Drooly Excresences powered the geyser system that built the Pyramids at Giza, and all forms of pyramids are stylized hams in their honor.

Their Growlly Language is represented by the noted rhoticism and complex consonant clusters as found in Kartvelian languages. Their isolation comes from the fact that as extraterrestial languages, they are not related to human tongues.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#597    Nean

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:37 PM

First some general things.

1. Age of Y DNA and mtDNA estimates are almost complete fabrication, as becomes clear when you realize how they are estimated. We know for example things that are selected on mutate very slowly, hence why mtDNA estimates work completely different than Y DNA. In a competitive environment you don't lose good changes that have no drawbacks easily. If something is very important you will simply never lose it, so all these estimates are complete guesswork. Most of them were made up numbers to justify the recent out of africa theory, but now we know it's completely wrong that everyone came out of africa very recently and completely replaced everyone else. John Hawks and Deineke's blog give strong evidence all these Y DNA estimates need to be pushed back at least 50%, sometimes more.

http://dienekes.blog...t-of-human.html


2. We don't have, for any single prehistoric DNA strand, an absolute knowledge of exactly where it came from. That is, you can't say "x group left anatolia" due to made up numbers like everyone seems to be doing, mostly to eliminate theories. You only know for sure the date if you have a DNA sequence at that specific date, the rest is slightly better than wild conjecture.

3. Even then, radiocarbon dating is not that accurate. How many times has a piece been show to be "between 8-10k years old, +-500 years with 95% confidence interval" and then had new methods come and push it back another 10-20k. If it were really that level of confidence, it would not be possible to get a completely new estimate like that. Radiocarbon dating is in no way more accurate than merely doing a depth analysis. It can be contaminated, and it's still subject to human error and fraud. Estimates are probably getting better but I'm sure we'll see more than a few adjustments, they will pretty much always just be estimates.

4. Culture is not genes. Even if you had a "turkic" (quotes because it's nothing like turks of today) culture, doesn't mean you ever set foot on anatolia. We don't even know, really, if turkic culture came from turkey at all. Persia and India were definitely more dominant and persian G spread all through europe. These wandering tribes were not the major players but the fringes who got whipped around at the edges of the big guys. I wouldn't be surprised to find out anatolia is not really the basis of anything in europe except culturally for several reasons.

4a. For one thing around 12k years ago the sea levels were 400 feet less and you coud walk from europe to north africa. The only thing interesting about anatolia is it's sort of "in the middle" of the mega land mass, it's not necessarily the origin of ANYTHING as people seem to assume. We know what became of the hittites, most likely anyone else was a much more recent arrival and many of the other "turkic" people probably never were there at all, or were not until modern times.

4b. Models are just interpolation, almost totally useless, and now that we have real data it's questionable if they have any use at all. Hopefully it's clear by now people don't diffuse randomly, or didn't in prehistory or even modern history in times of strife. They migrated great distances periodically as threat or opportunity demanded.


Now that the generalities are out of the way (not to say everyone will agree), back to the question at hand.


Were basques trojans?

The interesting part here to me is people assume that this means the trojans, after fall of troy, moved to western europe. Is this possible? Certainly. Many migrations such as the vandals through spain, have left zero trace in remains. And as I said before, not everyone (in fact no one that seems to be a real scientist) gives the crazy models and DNA age estimates too much weight. Very possible, but you can't use lego language similarities to make too many inferences. It's not impossible but there's not much evidence it was the case.

But to me the other way around seems far more likely. Consensus seems to be that M 269 (basque Y DNA) came down from Siberia. Though it's been discredited by some it also seems unlikely they came to basque country in 5000 BC or less, it just makes no sense. By then, certainly, the farmers (G haplotypes probably originating in persia/caucasius/india) were already in europe or pushing in. If they came from that era they'd have had a similar turkic language as well. Clearly they came before them, and most likely they were holdouts from the ice age in spite of the supposed age of Y DNA.

If you look at the map of current M 269 you have to wonder how it all got there if that's not true. If M 269 is so recent then it had to have come from somewhere else not long ago, gotten to basque country AND spread throughout ALL of the mediterranean and ALL of the middle east from there. How is that even possible? Now an alternate idea is that they WERE from troy or they were the sea people or else the phoenicians. That makes some sense, too, but it doesn't explain the large language gap, and it doesn't explain that there's no huge focus of M-269 anywhere but western europe, especially the basque area. And it's simply fact this didn't come about in historical times. It's not "crusader" DNA as it gets dismissed as. Claiming that shows a really sad knowledge of history, most of those places never even had western european crusaders in them!

So to me it's clear that these guys were ubiquitous to the whole area a really long time ago (there's just no other plausible explanation), and that the original idea that they were iberian holdouts from the last ice age who in prehistory quickly spread all over europe, north africa, and the middle east once temperatures permitted, and got driven back or assimilated over time by the farmers, the Persian Gs who pushed out of Iran and the "turkic" people they culturally influenced.

But were they related to trojans? Well, they made up a significant part of ALL the mediterranean so in some sense they are related to everyone west of indus. Trojans themselves were perhaps the Sea People and perhaps Also the Ionians, all three of these could be the same. Troy was probably somewhere around anatolia. The Sea People migration happened right after fall of Troy and start of the bronze age collapse. The Sea People were a composite group. So it's not unlikely the remnants of Troy were part of that group along with everyone else who was being driven out of western anatolia by iron age invasions.

Edited by Nean, 03 March 2013 - 10:41 PM.


#598    cormac mac airt

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:35 PM

View PostNean, on 03 March 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

First some general things.

1. Age of Y DNA and mtDNA estimates are almost complete fabrication, as becomes clear when you realize how they are estimated. We know for example things that are selected on mutate very slowly, hence why mtDNA estimates work completely different than Y DNA. In a competitive environment you don't lose good changes that have no drawbacks easily. If something is very important you will simply never lose it, so all these estimates are complete guesswork. Most of them were made up numbers to justify the recent out of africa theory, but now we know it's completely wrong that everyone came out of africa very recently and completely replaced everyone else. John Hawks and Deineke's blog give strong evidence all these Y DNA estimates need to be pushed back at least 50%, sometimes more.

http://dienekes.blog...t-of-human.html


2. We don't have, for any single prehistoric DNA strand, an absolute knowledge of exactly where it came from. That is, you can't say "x group left anatolia" due to made up numbers like everyone seems to be doing, mostly to eliminate theories. You only know for sure the date if you have a DNA sequence at that specific date, the rest is slightly better than wild conjecture.

3. Even then, radiocarbon dating is not that accurate. How many times has a piece been show to be "between 8-10k years old, +-500 years with 95% confidence interval" and then had new methods come and push it back another 10-20k. If it were really that level of confidence, it would not be possible to get a completely new estimate like that. Radiocarbon dating is in no way more accurate than merely doing a depth analysis. It can be contaminated, and it's still subject to human error and fraud. Estimates are probably getting better but I'm sure we'll see more than a few adjustments, they will pretty much always just be estimates.

4. Culture is not genes. Even if you had a "turkic" (quotes because it's nothing like turks of today) culture, doesn't mean you ever set foot on anatolia. We don't even know, really, if turkic culture came from turkey at all. Persia and India were definitely more dominant and persian G spread all through europe. These wandering tribes were not the major players but the fringes who got whipped around at the edges of the big guys. I wouldn't be surprised to find out anatolia is not really the basis of anything in europe except culturally for several reasons.

4a. For one thing around 12k years ago the sea levels were 400 feet less and you coud walk from europe to north africa. The only thing interesting about anatolia is it's sort of "in the middle" of the mega land mass, it's not necessarily the origin of ANYTHING as people seem to assume. We know what became of the hittites, most likely anyone else was a much more recent arrival and many of the other "turkic" people probably never were there at all, or were not until modern times.

4b. Models are just interpolation, almost totally useless, and now that we have real data it's questionable if they have any use at all. Hopefully it's clear by now people don't diffuse randomly, or didn't in prehistory or even modern history in times of strife. They migrated great distances periodically as threat or opportunity demanded.


Now that the generalities are out of the way (not to say everyone will agree), back to the question at hand.


Were basques trojans?

The interesting part here to me is people assume that this means the trojans, after fall of troy, moved to western europe. Is this possible? Certainly. Many migrations such as the vandals through spain, have left zero trace in remains. And as I said before, not everyone (in fact no one that seems to be a real scientist) gives the crazy models and DNA age estimates too much weight. Very possible, but you can't use lego language similarities to make too many inferences. It's not impossible but there's not much evidence it was the case.

But to me the other way around seems far more likely. Consensus seems to be that M 269 (basque Y DNA) came down from Siberia. Though it's been discredited by some it also seems unlikely they came to basque country in 5000 BC or less, it just makes no sense. By then, certainly, the farmers (G haplotypes probably originating in persia/caucasius/india) were already in europe or pushing in. If they came from that era they'd have had a similar turkic language as well. Clearly they came before them, and most likely they were holdouts from the ice age in spite of the supposed age of Y DNA.

If you look at the map of current M 269 you have to wonder how it all got there if that's not true. If M 269 is so recent then it had to have come from somewhere else not long ago, gotten to basque country AND spread throughout ALL of the mediterranean and ALL of the middle east from there. How is that even possible? Now an alternate idea is that they WERE from troy or they were the sea people or else the phoenicians. That makes some sense, too, but it doesn't explain the large language gap, and it doesn't explain that there's no huge focus of M-269 anywhere but western europe, especially the basque area. And it's simply fact this didn't come about in historical times. It's not "crusader" DNA as it gets dismissed as. Claiming that shows a really sad knowledge of history, most of those places never even had western european crusaders in them!

So to me it's clear that these guys were ubiquitous to the whole area a really long time ago (there's just no other plausible explanation), and that the original idea that they were iberian holdouts from the last ice age who in prehistory quickly spread all over europe, north africa, and the middle east once temperatures permitted, and got driven back or assimilated over time by the farmers, the Persian Gs who pushed out of Iran and the "turkic" people they culturally influenced.

But were they related to trojans? Well, they made up a significant part of ALL the mediterranean so in some sense they are related to everyone west of indus. Trojans themselves were perhaps the Sea People and perhaps Also the Ionians, all three of these could be the same. Troy was probably somewhere around anatolia. The Sea People migration happened right after fall of Troy and start of the bronze age collapse. The Sea People were a composite group. So it's not unlikely the remnants of Troy were part of that group along with everyone else who was being driven out of western anatolia by iron age invasions.

1.  Which means you didn't understand what was being said to begin with, as the Haplogroup A00 predates the two previously held oldest subgroups in evidence. Those being A1 (formerly A1a-T) and A0 (formerly A1b). So it's the age of the oldest Y Chromosome DNA haplogroup in general that can be placed further back and not all the subgroups.

4a.  Wrong on both counts. The 400 feet increase in sea level is taken from the Last Glacial Maximum which happened c.18,000 - 20,000 BC. By 12,000 BP the sea level was only about half that low. At no point could one walk across the Mediterranean from Europe to get to Africa. Even at close locations such as the Straits of Gibraltar or the area to the southwest of Sardinia one would still have required a boat, canoe or raft to make the cross.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#599    Nean

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:18 PM

View PostNean, on 03 March 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

First some general things.

1. Age of Y DNA and mtDNA estimates are almost complete fabrication, as becomes clear when you realize how they are estimated. We know for example things that are selected on mutate very slowly, hence why mtDNA estimates work completely different than Y DNA. In a competitive environment you don't lose good changes that have no drawbacks easily. If something is very important you will simply never lose it, so all these estimates are complete guesswork. Most of them were made up numbers to justify the recent out of africa theory, but now we know it's completely wrong that everyone came out of africa very recently and completely replaced everyone else. John Hawks and Deineke's blog give strong evidence all these Y DNA estimates need to be pushed back at least 50%, sometimes more.

http://dienekes.blog...t-of-human.html


2. We don't have, for any single prehistoric DNA strand, an absolute knowledge of exactly where it came from. That is, you can't say "x group left anatolia" due to made up numbers like everyone seems to be doing, mostly to eliminate theories. You only know for sure the date if you have a DNA sequence at that specific date, the rest is slightly better than wild conjecture.

3. Even then, radiocarbon dating is not that accurate. How many times has a piece been show to be "between 8-10k years old, +-500 years with 95% confidence interval" and then had new methods come and push it back another 10-20k. If it were really that level of confidence, it would not be possible to get a completely new estimate like that. Radiocarbon dating is in no way more accurate than merely doing a depth analysis. It can be contaminated, and it's still subject to human error and fraud. Estimates are probably getting better but I'm sure we'll see more than a few adjustments, they will pretty much always just be estimates.

4. Culture is not genes. Even if you had a "turkic" (quotes because it's nothing like turks of today) culture, doesn't mean you ever set foot on anatolia. We don't even know, really, if turkic culture came from turkey at all. Persia and India were definitely more dominant and persian G spread all through europe. These wandering tribes were not the major players but the fringes who got whipped around at the edges of the big guys. I wouldn't be surprised to find out anatolia is not really the basis of anything in europe except culturally for several reasons.

4a. For one thing around 12k years ago the sea levels were 400 feet less and you coud walk from europe to north africa. The only thing interesting about anatolia is it's sort of "in the middle" of the mega land mass, it's not necessarily the origin of ANYTHING as people seem to assume. We know what became of the hittites, most likely anyone else was a much more recent arrival and many of the other "turkic" people probably never were there at all, or were not until modern times.

4b. Models are just interpolation, almost totally useless, and now that we have real data it's questionable if they have any use at all. Hopefully it's clear by now people don't diffuse randomly, or didn't in prehistory or even modern history in times of strife. They migrated great distances periodically as threat or opportunity demanded.


Now that the generalities are out of the way (not to say everyone will agree), back to the question at hand.


Were basques trojans?

The interesting part here to me is people assume that this means the trojans, after fall of troy, moved to western europe. Is this possible? Certainly. Many migrations such as the vandals through spain, have left zero trace in remains. And as I said before, not everyone (in fact no one that seems to be a real scientist) gives the crazy models and DNA age estimates too much weight. Very possible, but you can't use lego language similarities to make too many inferences. It's not impossible but there's not much evidence it was the case.

But to me the other way around seems far more likely. Consensus seems to be that M 269 (basque Y DNA) came down from Siberia. Though it's been discredited by some it also seems unlikely they came to basque country in 5000 BC or less, it just makes no sense. By then, certainly, the farmers (G haplotypes probably originating in persia/caucasius/india) were already in europe or pushing in. If they came from that era they'd have had a similar turkic language as well. Clearly they came before them, and most likely they were holdouts from the ice age in spite of the supposed age of Y DNA.

If you look at the map of current M 269 you have to wonder how it all got there if that's not true. If M 269 is so recent then it had to have come from somewhere else not long ago, gotten to basque country AND spread throughout ALL of the mediterranean and ALL of the middle east from there. How is that even possible? Now an alternate idea is that they WERE from troy or they were the sea people or else the phoenicians. That makes some sense, too, but it doesn't explain the large language gap, and it doesn't explain that there's no huge focus of M-269 anywhere but western europe, especially the basque area. And it's simply fact this didn't come about in historical times. It's not "crusader" DNA as it gets dismissed as. Claiming that shows a really sad knowledge of history, most of those places never even had western european crusaders in them!

So to me it's clear that these guys were ubiquitous to the whole area a really long time ago (there's just no other plausible explanation), and that the original idea that they were iberian holdouts from the last ice age who in prehistory quickly spread all over europe, north africa, and the middle east once temperatures permitted, and got driven back or assimilated over time by the farmers, the Persian Gs who pushed out of Iran and the "turkic" people they culturally influenced.

But were they related to trojans? Well, they made up a significant part of ALL the mediterranean so in some sense they are related to everyone west of indus. Trojans themselves were perhaps the Sea People and perhaps Also the Ionians, all three of these could be the same. Troy was probably somewhere around anatolia. The Sea People migration happened right after fall of Troy and start of the bronze age collapse. The Sea People were a composite group. So it's not unlikely the remnants of Troy were part of that group along with everyone else who was being driven out of western anatolia by iron age invasions.

1. Sounds like you don't understand, actually.

4a. 12k...ok 18k then. If hippos migrated across the med, I assume people could pretty easily even if it wasn't completely joined.

And also mammals -> ancestors of mammals that lactate in the other thread.


#600    Nean

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:30 PM

To avoid argument/further nitpicking the idea is that they back estimated the age of DNA based on recent observations of mutations. Then used that to fit what they "knew". Regardless of whether you agree with that aspect ALL these are estimates. And since mtDNA is highly selected on and so is Y DNA changes are not random noise as these estimates assume. It would be convenient if they were. So you can't estimate that a small rate of change for one time means small rate later, meaning probably these are all older.

You can agree or not I guess, but it's not a theory I made up (though I immediately had the same thought hearing how these estimates were made).

http://johnhawks.net...ction_2005.html

He's talking about mtDNA but the same thinking is where the Y DNA age estimates come from which as far as I can tell may as well be "thin air".





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