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Trojans were Basques?


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#61    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:07 AM

Posted Image
Owl eyes on bowl from Los Millares, reminding me of Athena.

Los Millares is the name of a Chalcolithic occupation site 17 km north of Almería, in the municipality of Santa Fe de Mondújar, Andalusia, Spain. The complex was in use from the end of the fourth millennium to the end of the second millennium BC and probably supported somewhere around 1000 people.

The 5 acre (2ha) site consists of three concentric lines of stone walls, the outer ring the largest, running more than 650 feet with nineteen 'bastions' and a gate guarded by foreworks.[1] The road to the site is guarded by four smaller outlying stone forts.[1] There is an extensive cemetery of eighty passage grave tombs.[1] Radiocarbon dating has established that one wall collapsed and was rebuilt around 3025 BC.


The complex described above sounds like Troy, the Los Millares people could have been building concentric circled walls with a gate into their town since at least the 4th millenium BC.

Other Iberian settlements in this region of a similar age to Los Millares include the settlement of Los Silillos and Neolithic finds at Cabrera.[4]

Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid at Monte d'Accoddi in Sardinia have been noticed.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Los_Millares

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#62    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:11 AM

View PostGoodnite, on 14 February 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I found this interesting article on the Basque people.
http://www.aoi.com.a...anderbasque.htm
Yes, I read that one, some good points bought up for sure.

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#63    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:20 AM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 14 February 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Oppenheimer's not on his own, amongst the many Bryan Sykes  Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford and a current Fellow of Wolfson College says much the same in "Blood of the isles" it only confirms what archaeologist and linguists have been saying for  30 years or more.
Yes, it's always possible they just have not identified older strains of R1b in Western Europe yet.

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#64    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:30 AM

The paper repeats the standard claims about the origin of R1b and its main sublineage R-M269 in Asia, but presents no new information that would support this claim. With the state of the evidence, I see no real reason to prefer a West Asian to a Southeastern European origin for this haplogroup.


I don't give much credence to small differences in Y-STR variance, due to the large confidence intervals associated with such estimates, and it is interesting that the authors do not present an argument from Y-STR variation about the origin of R1b, preferring to make broad statements about Mesolithic-Neolithic movements into Europe.


A study of supplementary table S2 which gives coalescent times reveals that there is no clear pattern of greater Asian diversity within haplogroup R1b or its subclades. And, while Central-Western Europe does appear to be an outgrowth of R1b rather than a place of origin (with the dominance of derived R-M412 lineages) there is nothing in the paper that would make one prefer West Asia to Southeastern Europe as a place of origin.


Personally I think the issue cannot be settled yet, but there are reasons to prefer the latter option. An Asian origin of R1b has a major parsimony hurdle: it would require a seemingly directed drang nach westen for R1b, into Europe, and into North Africa, with a paucity of R1b in the opposite direction (among Arabians and to the south and in South Asia) and a scattering of very young R-M73 and R-M269 to the east of Europe.


http://dienekes.blog...entral-and.html

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#65    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:48 AM

The Bell Beaker style is also found very early in Portugal.

The Bell Beaker phenomenon in the Iberian peninsula defines the late phase of the local Chalcolithic and even intrudes in the earliest centuries of the Bronze Age.[30] A review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe found that some of the earliest were found in Portugal, where the range from Zambujal and Cerro de la Virgen ran between 2900 BC and 2500 BC, in contrast to the rather later range for Andalusia (between 2500BC to 2200 BC).[11]

At present no internal chronology for the various Bell Beaker-related styles has been achieved yet for Iberia.[31] Peninsular corded Bell Beakers are usually found in coastal or near coastal regions in three main regions: the western Pyrenees, the lower Ebro and adjacent east coast, and the northwest. A corded-zoned Maritime variety (C/ZM), proposed to be a hybrid between AOC and Maritime Herringbone, was mainly found in burial contexts and expanded westward, especially along the mountain systems of the Meseta.

With some notable exceptions, most Iberian early Bell Beaker burials are at or near the coastal regions. As for the settlements and monuments within the Iberian context, Beaker pottery is generally found in association with local Chalcolithic material and appears most of all as an "intrusion" from the 3rd millennium in burial monuments whose origin may go back to the 4th or 5th millennium BC.

Very early dates for Bell Beakers were found in Castelo Velho de Freixo de Numão in Guarda, Northern Portugal. The site was located on the summit of a spur. A short-lived first occupation of pre-Bell Beaker building phase about 3000 BC revealed the remains of a tower, some pavings and structures for burning. After a break of one or two centuries, Bell Beaker pottery was introduced in a second building phase that lasted to the Early Bronze Age, about 1800 BC. A third building phase followed directly and lasted to about 1300 BC, after which the site was covered with layers of stone and clay, apparently deliberately, and abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia...._Beaker_culture


Also, an example of the oldest finds may not indicate points of origin:

This is the same problem various people have pointed out with Out of Africa. Proposition: "Oh, we find the most ancient human remains in the East-African Rift Valley; humans must come from East-Africa." Counter: "Conditions there make it very easy to preserve remains in the Rift Valley. Finding bones in the Rift Valley proves such people were there at a given time, not that they originated there."

The same logic applies, exactly, in this case. The Neolithic (Semitic-speakers?) who set up colonies in parts of Western-Europe, had burial practices that allow for easier discovery and identification now.

http://forwhattheywe...berian-dna.html


One more article:
I have not read the paper, so I can't comment in detail. Two quick comments:
The discovery of G2a is added to the finds from Treilles, Derenburg, and the Alps. It is now virtually certain that the Neolithic transition in much of Europe, both inland, and coastal involved G2a-bearing men.
The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date.
While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."


At least for now, three of the major players of the European genetic landscape (E-V13, G2a, and I2a) have made their Neolithic appearance. Hopefully, as more ancient DNA is published, and even from later dates, more of them will turn up.


http://dienekes.blog...and-g2a-in.html

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#66    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:11 AM

The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date.
http://dienekes.blog...and-g2a-in.html

E1b1b1a1b (E-V13). This is the most common type of E1b1b found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans.
http://en.wikipedia....up_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#Sub_Clades_of_E1b1b1a1_.28E-M78.29

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#67    Swede

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:25 AM

Puzz - Current research indicates that the quite small site of the speculated Troy (Hisarlik, Wilusa in the Hittite texts) was occupied by Luwain-speaking members of the Arzawan states that were a vassal possession of the Hittite empire in west Anatolia. Given genetics, timelines, material culture, and language groupings, it may be rather difficult to derive credible support for your speculations.

.


#68    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:54 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 17 February 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

Yes, it's always possible they just have not identified older strains of R1b in Western Europe yet.

R1b (the parent group) originates in Southwest Asia <18,500 BP with intermediate subgroups aligning similarly and R1b1a2-M269 (Anatolia) is the first in Europe c.7000 BC then there is no older group that can be responsible.

Quote

The paper repeats the standard claims about the origin of R1b and its main sublineage R-M269 in Asia, but presents no new information that would support this claim. With the state of the evidence, I see no real reason to prefer a West Asian to a Southeastern European origin for this haplogroup.

Which was effectively invalidated in 2011 per "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe". To whit:

Quote

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 17 February 2012 - 03:56 AM.

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#69    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:30 AM

View PostSwede, on 17 February 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Puzz - Current research indicates that the quite small site of the speculated Troy (Hisarlik, Wilusa in the Hittite texts) was occupied by Luwain-speaking members of the Arzawan states that were a vassal possession of the Hittite empire in west Anatolia. Given genetics, timelines, material culture, and language groupings, it may be rather difficult to derive credible support for your speculations.

.
Maybe, I do hear you though.


I edited my answer to your post.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 February 2012 - 05:08 AM.

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#70    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:33 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 17 February 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

R1b (the parent group) originates in Southwest Asia <18,500 BP with intermediate subgroups aligning similarly and R1b1a2-M269 (Anatolia) is the first in Europe c.7000 BC then there is no older group that can be responsible.



Which was effectively invalidated in 2011 per "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe". To whit:



cormac
OK, fair enough.

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#71    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:43 AM

I'd like to ask a question though.

According to your opinions, who built the most ancient structures on Malta if not the Sicani, who were said to be Iberian?

Pottery found by archeologists at Skorba resembles that found in Italy, and suggests that the Maltese islands were first settled in 5200 BC mainly by stone age hunters or farmers who had arrived from the larger island of Sicily, possibly the Sicani. The extinction of the dwarf hippos and dwarf elephants has been linked to the earliest arrival of humans on Malta.[29] Prehistoric farming settlements dating to Early Neolithic period were discovered in open areas and also in caves, such as Għar Dalam.[30]

The Sicani were the only tribe known to have inhabited the island at this time[31][32] and are generally regarded as related to the Iberians.[33] The population on Malta grew cereals, raised domestic livestock and, in common with other ancient Mediterranean cultures, worshiped a fertility figure represented in Maltese prehistoric artifacts as exhibiting the large proportions seen in similar statuettes, including the Venus of Willendorf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta

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#72    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:52 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 17 February 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

I'd like to ask a question though.

According to your opinions, who built the most ancient structures on Malta if not the Sicani, who were said to be Iberian?

Pottery found by archeologists at Skorba resembles that found in Italy, and suggests that the Maltese islands were first settled in 5200 BC mainly by stone age hunters or farmers who had arrived from the larger island of Sicily, possibly the Sicani. The extinction of the dwarf hippos and dwarf elephants has been linked to the earliest arrival of humans on Malta.[29] Prehistoric farming settlements dating to Early Neolithic period were discovered in open areas and also in caves, such as Għar Dalam.[30]

The Sicani were the only tribe known to have inhabited the island at this time[31][32] and are generally regarded as related to the Iberians.[33] The population on Malta grew cereals, raised domestic livestock and, in common with other ancient Mediterranean cultures, worshiped a fertility figure represented in Maltese prehistoric artifacts as exhibiting the large proportions seen in similar statuettes, including the Venus of Willendorf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta

I don't have a problem with the possibility that the Sicani built or had at least some measure of responsibility for the structures on Malta. I DO have a problem with the pretense, whether ancient or modern, that the Sicani were Iberian in origin. Or that the Iberians are responsible for repopulating Europe, as the evidence suggests otherwise.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#73    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:56 AM

Here's Marija Gimbutas' answer:

Old Europe is a term coined by archaeologist Marija Gimbutas to describe what she perceives as a relatively homogeneous and widespread pre-Indo-European Neolithic culture in Europe, particularly in Malta and the Balkans.

In her major work, The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe: 6500–3500 B.C. (1982), she refers to these Neolithic cultures as Old Europe. Archaeologists and ethnographers working within her framework believe that the evidence points to migrations of the peoples who spoke Indo-European languages at the beginning of the Bronze age (the Kurgan hypothesis). For this reason, Gimbutas and her associates regard the terms Neolithic Europe, Old Europe, and Pre-Indo-European as synonymous.


pre-Indo European Neolithic culture - so who were these people?

In historical times, some ethnonyms are believed to correspond to Pre-Indo-European peoples, assumed to be the descendants of the earlier Old European cultures: the Pelasgians, Minoans, Leleges, Iberians, Etruscans and Basques. Two of the three pre-Greek peoples of Sicily, the Sicans and the Elymians, may also have been pre-Indo-European. The term "Pre-Indo-European" is sometimes extended to refer to Asia Minor and Central Asia, in which case the Hurrians and Urartians are sometimes included.
http://en.wikipedia....uropean_culture

So, according to her, it must have been some of these people who built them.

So, even though I have said that Trojans may not have been Basques, it is obvious that these pre-Indo European people were making a huge dint in the Mediterranean.


If it wasn't Basques or Aquitini involved, one wonders who built the similar structures in their homelands...

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#74    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:59 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 17 February 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with the possibility that the Sicani built or had at least some measure of responsibility for the structures on Malta. I DO have a problem with the pretense, whether ancient or modern, that the Sicani were Iberian in origin. Or that the Iberians are responsible for repopulating Europe, as the evidence suggests otherwise.

cormac
3 q's cormac because I actually do value your input.

1.How do you know the Sicani were not Iberian in origin?

2.How do you know what haplogroup they are/were?

Two of the three pre-Greek peoples of Sicily, the Sicans and the Elymians, may also have been pre-Indo-European.

3.Where do you suggest they came from?

The thing is the megalithic structures are all throughout Western Europe as well, I find it hard to think the same groups did not build them all.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 February 2012 - 05:02 AM.

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#75    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:20 AM

View PostSwede, on 17 February 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Puzz - Current research indicates that the quite small site of the speculated Troy (Hisarlik, Wilusa in the Hittite texts) was occupied by Luwain-speaking members of the Arzawan states that were a vassal possession of the Hittite empire in west Anatolia. Given genetics, timelines, material culture, and language groupings, it may be rather difficult to derive credible support for your speculations.

.
Troy I was built c. 3000BC so I'd be looking for the original builders of this structure.

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