607 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 19 February 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Uh No, as Indo-Europeans had already started making their way into Europe via Anatolia by 7000 BC, 1000 years before.



Blowing off genetic studies in order for one to play "mix-n-match" isn't a valid means of finding answers IMO. What genetics has shown us, to a large degree, is what haplogroups were in which areas at particular times and where they originated from. None of which remotely validates the "mix-n-match" approach I've seen here in various discussions.

I'm not a linguist so can't answer your first question, but the second one is predicated on the belief that Hebrews were in Egypt (THE EXODUS). At the risk of being repetitious, there was no Exodus.  

cormac

It might be possible though, because genetics is not showing us very ancient lines in many of the studies and also mythology is filled with stories of ruling lineages who may have been different from the local populations, ones who might not even show they were there in any genetic studies of today. Also languages and lineages can be very different. Mostly it's only Y male lines that are in the studies also.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About Gobekli Tepe, I was reading a National Geographic article last night and realised that inside the circular structures which T shaped large pillars sat around the walls, also were 2 larger T shaped pillars, holding up the ? roof, if they had one, or sky..

2 large T shaped pillars, sounded like a very early version of the Pillars of Heracles or an Atlas concept - the rocks do actually look like priests, they have arms engraved on them and hands and loincloths, on a couple of the large T shaped pillars, 2 of them, in the middle of the circle.

Edited by The Puzzler, 20 February 2012 - 04:04 AM.

[The Puzzler]

I found this:

It has been proposed that haplogroup subclade J2a-M410 was linked to populations on ancient Crete by examining the relationship between Anatolian, Cretan, and Greek populations from around early Neolithic sites.[28] Haplogroup J2b-M12 was associated with Neolithic Greece (ca. 8500 - 4300 BCE) and was reported to be found in modern Crete (3.1%) and mainland Greece (Macedonia 7.0%, Thessaly 8.8%, Argolis 1.8%).[29]
http://en.wikipedia....group_J2_(Y-DNA)

Haplogroup J2 is widely believed to be associated with the spread of agriculture from Mesopotamia (Iraq and Syria).[1][7]

"The main spread of J2 into the Mediterranean area is thought to have coincided with the expansion of agricultural people's during the Neolithic period."[2] The age of J2 has been estimated as 18,500 +/- 3,500 years ago.[1] Its distribution, centered in Western Asia and Southeastern Europe, its association with the presence of Neolithic archaeological artifacts, such as figurines and painted pottery,[21] and its association with annual precipitation have been interpreted as evidence that J2, and in particular its J2a-M410 subclade belonged to the agricultural innovators who followed the rainfall.[22] However, Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of Hg J2.

It could be that J2 is a continuation of the Anatolian Gobekli Tepe building people into Neolithic Greeks and early Cretans...these might even be seen in myth as relations of Phoenicians, such as settlers in Boeotia and Thebes, who shared an early Hercules, twin pillar culture, who started sailing and had the Mother cow Goddess and the Bull.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

...mythology is filled with stories of ruling lineages who may have been different from the local populations, ones who might not even show they were there in any genetic studies of today.

I'll take fact over stories any day.

Quote

...ones who might not even show they were there in any genetic studies of today.

Which would suggest, if true, that they were not sizeable enough to have had any significant affect on the areas claimed as their origin point/s nor on any other cultures they were claimed to have come into contact with. Also, this effectively invalidates any names that could be attributed to them such as "Portugese" or "Iberians", etc. One can't base an argument on a culture/cultures that are unevidenced.

Quote

Mostly it's only Y male lines that are in the studies also.

It's only Y DNA lines that are discussed in Y DNA articles. MtDNA lines also have their place in the overall picture and there are articles dealing with mtDNA lines.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

E-V13

Origin is either North Africa or the Southern Levant
E-V13 => 14,000 years ago (in the southern Levant or North Africa)

This group is shown on the chart at the time frame of 2800-2500BC in:

Bell-beaker and Megalithic cultures (Europe)
Printed Cardium Pottery (Italy)
Corded Ware Culture (Nth Europe and Northern Asiatic areas)
'Old Europe' (Macedonia, Thrace)
Helladic Greece (Greece)

So, this is saying that from c. 12000BC a group who originated in either the Sth Levant or Nth Africa had spread into the above groups of Bronze Age cultures.

Broken down into (proposed) haplogroups in the early Bronze Age you have:

Bell Beaker & Megalithic - I, I2, I2a, I2b, E-V13, G2a
Printed Cardium Pottery - I,I2, I2a, G2a, E-V13, I2, I2a2, I2b, I1, N1c1
Old Europe - E-V13, J2b, T, G2a, I2a, I2a2
Helladic Greece: E-V13, I, I2, I2a, G2a
Minoan Crete - J2, E-M78, G2a, I, I2, I2a

Interesting how much I is around the areas too.

[The Puzzler]

I was after this info before, how old is M26?


I2a1a

Former I2a1 in the Y2010 tree. Haplogroup I2a1a (L158, L159.1/S169.1, M26) accounts for approximately 40% of all patrilines among the Sardinians.[9] It is also found at low to moderate frequency among populations of the Pyrenees (9.5% in Bortzerriak, Navarra; 9.7% in Chazetania, Aragon; 8% in Val d'Aran, Catalunya; 2.9% in Alt Urgell, Catalunya; and 8.1% in Baixa Cerdanya, Catalunya) and Iberia, and it has been found in 1.6% of a sample of Albanians living in the Republic of Macedonia[10] and 1.2% (3/257) of a sample of Czechs.[11] The age of YSTR variation for the M26 subclade has been calculated at 8.0±4.0 kya.
http://en.wikipedia....group_I2_(Y-DNA)

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 20 February 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

I was after this info before, how old is M26?


I2a1a

Former I2a1 in the Y2010 tree. Haplogroup I2a1a (L158, L159.1/S169.1, M26) accounts for approximately 40% of all patrilines among the Sardinians.[9] It is also found at low to moderate frequency among populations of the Pyrenees (9.5% in Bortzerriak, Navarra; 9.7% in Chazetania, Aragon; 8% in Val d'Aran, Catalunya; 2.9% in Alt Urgell, Catalunya; and 8.1% in Baixa Cerdanya, Catalunya) and Iberia, and it has been found in 1.6% of a sample of Albanians living in the Republic of Macedonia[10] and 1.2% (3/257) of a sample of Czechs.[11] The age of YSTR variation for the M26 subclade has been calculated at 8.0±4.0 kya.
http://en.wikipedia....group_I2_(Y-DNA)

I2:  c.14,000 BP

I2a1/P37.2:  c.10,700 BP

I2a1a/M-26:  c.8000 +/- 4000 BP

cormac

[SlimJim22]

The Puzzler, on 20 February 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

It might be possible though, because genetics is not showing us very ancient lines in many of the studies and also mythology is filled with stories of ruling lineages who may have been different from the local populations, ones who might not even show they were there in any genetic studies of today. Also languages and lineages can be very different. Mostly it's only Y male lines that are in the studies also.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About Gobekli Tepe, I was reading a National Geographic article last night and realised that inside the circular structures which T shaped large pillars sat around the walls, also were 2 larger T shaped pillars, holding up the ? roof, if they had one, or sky..

2 large T shaped pillars, sounded like a very early version of the Pillars of Heracles or an Atlas concept - the rocks do actually look like priests, they have arms engraved on them and hands and loincloths, on a couple of the large T shaped pillars, 2 of them, in the middle of the circle.

How does one define the Indo-Europeans of 7000 BCE? Is it their genetics, ethnicity, language or culture? To me it seems like a generalization that confuses more than it clarifies.

http://www.panshin.c...oeuropean1.html

Hebrew probably evolved from Proto-Sinaitic and fused with other linguistic groups I imagine. Exodus has value to me as an allegory and not as a literal telling of history.

http://www.ancientsc...tosinaitic.html

In the Trojans I get more of a sense of a culture that was influenced by cultures around it like the Hittites, Phoenicians, Minoans, Kura-axes, Maykopp, etc. and they cohabited relatively peacefully with trade and intemarriage. However, the Trojan War for me alludes to a change in attitudes with a strenghtening of the imperialists, possibly because of the influx of technology with military applications. Troy was a city focussed on defence it seems clear.

Interesting you mention about the 'T' crosses. This symbol is ancient but later we find it associated with Tammuz, which itself was a derivation of Dummuzi. In the Dummuzi/Inanna myth there is little to connect it to Atlas holding up the heavens but if I recall correctly Dummuzi did drown in a flood so there is a possible link.

Also, if we take Atlas, it may be that the 'A' is not the focus but rather it is the 'T' and we have words like Tula, Telah and tiller as in tiller of the soil. The interplay between sheperds and farmers is central to many myths but it is often confusing. The Basque do have a connection with Atlantis and therefore Poseidon, a patron of Troy along with Apollo. So my thinking is that Apollo was an eastern culture introduction and Poseidon came from the Med and these cultures allied at Troy to defend against... something... which I would say was the Patriarchal rise of cultures.

Good map, thanks Puzz

[The Puzzler]

SlimJim22, on 21 February 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

How does one define the Indo-Europeans of 7000 BCE? Is it their genetics, ethnicity, language or culture? To me it seems like a generalization that confuses more than it clarifies.

http://www.panshin.c...oeuropean1.html

Hebrew probably evolved from Proto-Sinaitic and fused with other linguistic groups I imagine. Exodus has value to me as an allegory and not as a literal telling of history.

http://www.ancientsc...tosinaitic.html

In the Trojans I get more of a sense of a culture that was influenced by cultures around it like the Hittites, Phoenicians, Minoans, Kura-axes, Maykopp, etc. and they cohabited relatively peacefully with trade and intemarriage. However, the Trojan War for me alludes to a change in attitudes with a strenghtening of the imperialists, possibly because of the influx of technology with military applications. Troy was a city focussed on defence it seems clear.

Interesting you mention about the 'T' crosses. This symbol is ancient but later we find it associated with Tammuz, which itself was a derivation of Dummuzi. In the Dummuzi/Inanna myth there is little to connect it to Atlas holding up the heavens but if I recall correctly Dummuzi did drown in a flood so there is a possible link.

Also, if we take Atlas, it may be that the 'A' is not the focus but rather it is the 'T' and we have words like Tula, Telah and tiller as in tiller of the soil. The interplay between sheperds and farmers is central to many myths but it is often confusing. The Basque do have a connection with Atlantis and therefore Poseidon, a patron of Troy along with Apollo. So my thinking is that Apollo was an eastern culture introduction and Poseidon came from the Med and these cultures allied at Troy to defend against... something... which I would say was the Patriarchal rise of cultures.

Good map, thanks Puzz

Quite frankly, I think cormac has Indo-Europeans way too early at 7000BC in Anatolia as he mentioned before.

The Proto-Indo-Europeans in this sense likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC. Mainstream scholarship places them in the forest-steppe zone immediately to the north of the western end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe. Some archaeologists would extend the time depth of PIE to the middle Neolithic (5500 to 4500 BC) or even the early Neolithic (7500 to 5500 BC), and suggest alternative location hypotheses.

By the late-3rd millennium BC offshoots of the Proto-Indo-Europeans had reached Anatolia, the Aegean, Western Europe, the Iranian plateau, and Northwestern China;[citation needed] they reached northern India later.

7000-7500BC would be the max age of PROTO-Indo Europeans, stretching it but I doubt they had reached Anatolia at 7000BC.

Quote

Uh No, as Indo-Europeans had already started making their way into Europe via Anatolia by 7000 BC, 1000 years before.

Proto-Indo-European traits:
The following traits of the Proto-Indo-Europeans and their environment are widely agreed-upon but still hypothetical due to their reconstructed nature. Some of the basic facts are:
stockbreeding and animal husbandry, including domesticated cattle, horses, and dogs[1]
agriculture and cereal cultivation, including technology commonly ascribed to late Neolithic farming communities, e.g., the plow[2]
a climate with winter snow[3]
transportation by or across water[1]
the solid wheel,[1] used for wagons, but not yet chariots with spoked wheels[4]
worship of a sky god,[2] *dyeus ph2tēr (lit. "sky father"; > Ancient Greek Ζευς (πατηρ) / Zeus (patēr); *dieu-ph2tēr > Latin Jupiter; Illyrian Deipaturos)[5][6]
oral heroic poetry or song lyrics that used stock phrases such as imperishable fame and wine-dark sea[1]
a patrilineal kinship system based on relationships between men[1]

The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a patrilineal society, possibly semi-nomadic, relying largely on agriculture, but partly on animal husbandry, notably of cattle and sheep. They had domesticated horses – *eḱwos (cf. Latin equus). The cow (*gwous) played a central role, in religion and mythology as well as in daily life. A man's wealth would have been measured by the number of his animals (small livestock), *peḱus (cf. English fee, Latin pecunia).

They practiced a polytheistic religion centered on sacrificial rites, probably administered by a priestly caste. Burials in barrows or tomb chambers apply to the kurgan culture, in accordance with the original version of the Kurgan hypothesis, but not to the previous Sredny Stog culture nor to the contemporary Corded Ware culture, both of which cultures are also generally associated with PIE. Important leaders would have been buried with their belongings in kurgans, and possibly also with members of their households or wives (human sacrifice, suttee).

Many Indo-European societies know a threefold division of priests, a warrior class, and a class of peasants or husbandmen. Such a division was suggested for the Proto-Indo-European society by Georges Dumézil.

If there was a separate class of warriors, it probably consisted of single young men. They would have followed a separate warrior code unacceptable in the society outside their peer-group. Traces of initiation rites in several Indo-European societies suggest that this group identified itself with wolves or dogs (see also Berserker, werewolf).

As for technology, reconstruction indicates a culture of the late Neolithic bordering on the early Bronze Age, with tools and weapons of very likely of "natural bronze" (i.e., made from copper ore naturally rich in silicon or arsenic). Silver and gold were known, but not silver smelting (as PIE has no word for lead, a by-product of silver smelting), thus suggesting that silver was imported. Sheep were kept for wool, and textiles were woven. The wheel was known, certainly for ox-drawn wagons
http://en.wikipedia....-Indo-Europeans

The Balkans were the site of major Neolithic cultures, including Vincha, Varna, Karanovo, Hamangia.

The Vinča culture was an early culture of the Balkans (between the 6th and the 3rd millennium BC), stretching around the course of the Danube in Serbia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania the Republic of Macedonia, although traces of it can be found all around the Balkans, parts of Central Europe and Asia Minor.

"Kurganization" of the eastern Balkans (and the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture adjacent to the north) during the Eneolithic is associated with a first expansion of Proto-Indo-Europeans.
http://en.wikipedia....istoric_Balkans

The T connection is interesting.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

Quite frankly, I think cormac has Indo-Europeans way too early at 7000BC in Anatolia as he mentioned before.

No, Indo-Europeans from my perspective would include any Proto-Indo-European influence which as I said appears to have come into Europe c.7000 BC. Likely making its way into the Bug-Dneister Culture c.6000/5500 BC and ending with Indo-European (as such) c.4000/3500 BC. None of which allows for the kinds of "mix-n-match" scenarios usually employed by yourself or GGG guy.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 22 February 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

No, Indo-Europeans from my perspective would include any Proto-Indo-European influence which as I said appears to have come into Europe c.7000 BC. Likely making its way into the Bug-Dneister Culture c.6000/5500 BC and ending with Indo-European (as such) c.4000/3500 BC. None of which allows for the kinds of "mix-n-match" scenarios usually employed by yourself or GGG guy.

cormac

From my perspective 7000BC is WAY too early to really have any Indo-Europeans or Proto-Indo-Europeans entering Europe via Anatolia.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 February 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 22 February 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

From my perspective 7000BC is WAY too early to really have any Indo-Europeans or Proto-Indo-Europeans entering Europe via Anatolia.

7000 BC is the earliest that even Proto-Indo-European could have been in Europe as genetics has shown that the R1a line, particularly R1a1a7/R1a1ag was already in Europe (Poland) by c.9000 BC. And the Bug-Dneister Culture already shows evidence of having had a Proto-Indo-European influence by c.6000 - 5500 BC from what I've read.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 22 February 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

7000 BC is the earliest that even Proto-Indo-European could have been in Europe as genetics has shown that the R1a line, particularly R1a1a7/R1a1ag was already in Europe (Poland) by c.9000 BC. And the Bug-Dneister Culture already shows evidence of having had a Proto-Indo-European influence by c.6000 - 5500 BC from what I've read.

cormac

http://www.familytre...1a/default.aspx

A widely cited theory proposed in 2000 that there may have been two expansions: first, R1a1a originally spreading from a Ukrainian refugium during the Late Glacial Maximum; and then, the spread being magnified by the expansion of males from the Kurgan culture.[15] A recent survey argues that R1a1a could be old enough for this scenario, but find it more likely that it was initially in Asia even if it was in parts of Europe by approximately 11,000 years ago.[2]

Most age estimates for R1a1a having such an early presence in Europe come from papers using the "evolutionarily effective" methodology described by Zhivotovsky et al. (2004), the latest such example being Mirabal et al. (2009) and Underhill et al. (2009). Researchers using this dating method therefore conclude that any Neolithic or more recent dispersals of R1a1a do not represent the initial spread of the whole clade, and might be more visible in the distribution of a subclade or subclades. Underhill et al. (2009) remark on the "geographic concordance of the R1a1a7-M458 distribution with the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age Corded Ware (CW) cultures of Europe". However they also note evidence contrary to a connection: Corded Ware period human remains at Eulau from which Y-DNA was extracted of R1a haplogroup appear to be R1a1a*(xM458) (which they found most similar to the modern German R1a1a* haplotype.)

http://en.wikipedia....roup_R1a_(Y-DNA)

No guarantee it was in Europe at such an early date, nor that it came in via Anatolia, I don't think it was a plausible answer to Slim, that's all  - however I would not be at all surprised if indeed R1a originated in Poland. I see much spread from Poland in ancient times.

[The Puzzler]

What I did notice after grouping the haplogroups of the Bronze Age cultures on the previous map I linked for Slim is this:

At 3800-3600BC these haplogroups were part of these 3 groups:

I, I2, I2a and E-V13 were all in:

Bell Beaker & Megalithic Culture
Cardium Pottery
Helladic Greece


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Illyrians, with the area of Albania having high R1a may be connected with an early Polish/Thracian culture, a warrior type that moved North and South.

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 23 February 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

http://www.familytre...1a/default.aspx

A widely cited theory proposed in 2000 that there may have been two expansions: first, R1a1a originally spreading from a Ukrainian refugium during the Late Glacial Maximum; and then, the spread being magnified by the expansion of males from the Kurgan culture.[15] A recent survey argues that R1a1a could be old enough for this scenario, but find it more likely that it was initially in Asia even if it was in parts of Europe by approximately 11,000 years ago.[2]

Most age estimates for R1a1a having such an early presence in Europe come from papers using the "evolutionarily effective" methodology described by Zhivotovsky et al. (2004), the latest such example being Mirabal et al. (2009) and Underhill et al. (2009). Researchers using this dating method therefore conclude that any Neolithic or more recent dispersals of R1a1a do not represent the initial spread of the whole clade, and might be more visible in the distribution of a subclade or subclades. Underhill et al. (2009) remark on the "geographic concordance of the R1a1a7-M458 distribution with the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age Corded Ware (CW) cultures of Europe". However they also note evidence contrary to a connection: Corded Ware period human remains at Eulau from which Y-DNA was extracted of R1a haplogroup appear to be R1a1a*(xM458) (which they found most similar to the modern German R1a1a* haplotype.)

http://en.wikipedia....roup_R1a_(Y-DNA)

No guarantee it was in Europe at such an early date, nor that it came in via Anatolia, I don't think it was a plausible answer to Slim, that's all  - however I would not be at all surprised if indeed R1a originated in Poland. I see much spread from Poland in ancient times.

Your first link is obviously not aware of, nor sources, the 2010 article "Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European
and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a" cowritten by (amongst others) Peter A. Underhill and Natalie A. Myers. Two of the leading experts in the field. Stating, in part:

Quote

In Europe, Poland also has the highest R1a1a7-M458
diversity, corresponding to approximately an 11 KYA coalescent time
(Supplementary Table S4). Other populations in Europe exhibit
declining diversity when sampled at increasing distance away from
Central Europe (Figure 2).

So yes, R1a WAS in Europe at such an early date. But it's too old to be the origin of Proto-Indo-European/Indo-European but may have played a role, after R1b-M269 entered Europe via Anatolia, with helping PIE/IE spread.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 23 February 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

Your first link is obviously not aware of, nor sources, the 2010 article "Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European
and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a" cowritten by (amongst others) Peter A. Underhill and Natalie A. Myers. Two of the leading experts in the field. Stating, in part:



So yes, R1a WAS in Europe at such an early date. But it's too old to be the origin of Proto-Indo-European/Indo-European but may have played a role, after R1b-M269 entered Europe via Anatolia, with helping PIE/IE spread.

cormac

Maybe, it's all very tentative but I'll agree on the last part I highlighted in your post.

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one Haplogroup C (Y-DNA)(xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.
90 % of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60 % of the individuals overall (out of the 26 bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.
http://en.wikipedia....dronovo_culture

It appears the Andronovo Culture was an R1a and fair, this fits the spread of fair haired large built warrior types out of the IE homeland imo. The R1a in Albania is possibly through contact with them and the Illyrians probably descended from them too. An early Cimmerian/Scythian type. The women might have been even older European type, indigenous moreso to the areas they came into, with a male warrior society branching out of the Andronovo homeland, moreso than a male/female migration out or such. Those mtDNA's are seemingly very old and European.


In historical records they may have developed into the Thracians, which I could very likely see, and possibly Iranian (Aryan) developing into Persians...
In southern Siberia and Kazakhstan, the Andronovo culture was succeeded by the Karasuk culture (1500–800 BCE), which is sometimes asserted to be non-Indo-European, and at other times to be specifically proto-Iranian. On its western border, it is succeeded by the Srubna culture, which partly derives from the Abashevo culture. The earliest historical peoples associated with the area are the Cimmerians and Saka/Scythians, appearing in Assyrian records after the decline of the Alekseyevka culture, migrating into the Ukraine from ca. the 9th century BCE (see also Ukrainian stone stela), and across the Caucasus into Anatolia and Assyria in the late 8th century BCE, and possibly also west into Europe as the Thracians (see Thraco-Cimmerian), and the Sigynnae, located by Herodotus beyond the Danube, north of the Thracians, and by Strabo near the Caspian Sea. Both Herodotus and Strabo identify them as Iranian.
http://en.wikipedia....dronovo_culture

Edited by The Puzzler, 23 February 2012 - 04:21 AM.