Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Poland rejects reparations call


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#16    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,524 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 28 September 2004 - 09:23 AM

QUOTE
he has a point talon. the history i learn at chool will again show a different side of what happened. that is the problem with history. that is the problem with a lot of things, the POV about what happened will be different.

thumbsup.gif

the problem with Talon's version of history, and if he represents the notion of history in Britain, then British version of history, is revisionism. It seem to me that up there in Europe, history is tought in light of the current world events.
If Israel is currently looking bad, than lets down-size the Holocaust.
If the Palestinians don't have any historical ownership on the land, but still call it Palestinian lands instead of disputed territory, then lets invent a fictional historical Palestine.

"My" version of history, or more accurately - the non revisionist and un-biased version of history, is nothing but anti-European. The fact the Europeans have a lot to be shame of about their recent history in their treatments to minorities, doesn't mean that history is anti-European.
On the contrary - if I was to deal with history base on the current situation of Europe, forgetting anything to this point and re-vision the past through today's politics, that would be bias. And that, Talon my friend, is exactly what youre doing.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#17    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,524 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 28 September 2004 - 10:02 AM

QUOTE
And there wasnít any Israel either, I guess thatís all revisionists nonsense too?hypocritical no?

No, there was a nation and a kingdom called Israel millenias ago.
Actually, the name Israel, in reference to a nation, first appears in Egyptian record of Canaan back in 1208 BC.
That's 3208 years of recorded history tongue.gif

Another example is the Scottish people - they existed long before, and there was a scottish kingdom. The largely obtained their celtic culture too, so one can see them as a direct cultural and ethnical descendants of the ancient celts.

On the other hand, Ukranians and Belarussians are simply Russians who speak a different dialect of Old Eastern Slavonic, shared between all untill seperated by Lithuanian and Mongol occupation.
Ukranian nationalism, is even a more recent phenonmanon.

And if we are at nationalism - nationalism is a very recent phenonmanon, dated to the 18th century largely.
Even Zionism, in it's current national flavour, is a new phenonmanon.

But there is also religious nationalism, which I can't find among Christians (becuase Christianity is a global religion, not an ethnical one), among Jews, dated many centuries ago.
Europeans had to become secular in order for nationalism to be created there (because through secularism, the ethnicall aspect of different nations was more dominant than their religious group).

QUOTE
I find it funny you claim Ukraine isnít a true country then go on about they're atrocities towards Jews dating back 300 hundred years.

300 years is still recent past - and it's in the scope of what I said: "nationalism is a very recent phenonmanon, dated to the 18th century largely.".
I didn't say Ukraine isn't a true country - I said Ukranian as an ethnic identity and as a nation a pretty recent creation.
Before that they called themselves and were called by others "little Russians", or "Ruthenians".

QUOTE
Currently I donít give a stuff about what they did to Jews, its as much an issue here as the Roman extermination of the Celts, whatís relevant here is the countryís right to exist.

Talon, 300 years is nowhere near 2,000 years, and the Ukranians still dmire that murderer - Bohdan Khmelniski.
The have a statue of him standing in Kiev.
This is the same nation, while no one can locate for me the current direct descendants of the Romans.
And even if they did - those Romans would have been totally different than the ancient Romans.

QUOTE
Please, I wouldnít dream of restoring ever ancient nation on the planet, its impossible.

Read it again - I said I am fond of ancient people restoring their independence, not that every ancient people need to do that.

QUOTE
As you love pointing out the area of Palestine was called that by the RomanísÖ so its been there a while. Doesn't matter if it was independent or not, all that matters is the region became home to a national identity that saw itself as such, same with Ukrane.

Lol - again distorting history.
As I didn't simply said the Romans called it Palestine, I am becomming sceptical of youre of what you say rolleyes.gif.
You dropped the important stuff - why and when did the Romans called it Palestine.
Well, in the 100th time, they called it Palestine after they exiled the Jews from Judea, as part of their campaign of rooting out any Jewish character of the land. The name "Palestine" orignated from the Israelites' most fierest foes - the Philistines (which by the time of the Romans were long gone, but like you and many other people can read Jewish history today through the bible, so did the Romans), a greek people who invaded the land from sea.
So the Romans called the land after it's people's most hated foe.

Anyhow - the Palestinians as a different identitfy of people exists only from the 1920s (one date) or 1967 (another optional date).
Before that (even back in 1920s) they saw themselves as simply Arabs, or southern Syrians.
And even before that, they didn't exist - most of them came from the rest of the Arab world, looking for jobs created by Jewish settelment of the land, during the late 19th century and British mandate during the first half of the 20th century.

QUOTE
I hope youíre not claiming the deaths of 50 million people is not important huh.gif Please explain what you mean.

You know exactly what I mean - comparing the Holocaust to simply a death in a war, and that like people died in a war, holding weapons in their hand, killed because they were fighting, to the butchering and slaugthering of men, women and children who have done nothing, who never committed a crime, is simply down sizing the Holocaust.
It is walking on a thin line here from Holocaust denial.

QUOTE
How come no matter what subject weíre debating it always manages to lead back to you.

LOL
looks who is talking -  Mr "I have BA you know", "I read books" laugh.gif

QUOTE
Again, you love misinterpretating people so you can bring the subject back to you.

Look who's talking - you misinterpretat almost every sentence I type, so you could write things that you wish to say, instead of staying on topic.
For example, when I gave an example of a country which was considered very civilized at the time, which in the same years produced the greatest horrors people ever saw, so to make a point that people tend to over estimate civilization, you misinterpretat that, again looking to the situation literally instead of as an example or a model where civilization failed.

And even more related - on this thread, when I talked about Hitler's speeched against democracy, as a proof that the Germans knew they were electing a dictator, you started talking about the Germans' will for a war.


Anyway, I think this thread is over.
You and I seem to always go off topic.
I hope this thread won't get locked because of us thumbsup.gif

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#18    Homer

Homer

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,814 posts
  • Joined:16 Mar 2001
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 28 September 2004 - 01:23 PM

Reparations is a major reason why Germany suffered so much after WW2, and why Hitler rose against Germany's neighbors.
Reparations doesn't solve anything, since it can't go back in time and undo what has already been done.
The atrocities suffered under Hitler are no less than the atrocities suffered under Stalin. This is not to degrade the atrocities caused by the Nazi's, but that you will find these actions throughout history, and to punish the Germans for what their parents/grandparents/great grandparents did could generate animosity with the Germans. How would that be beneficial for either country?


אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#19    Seraphina

Seraphina

    Voted Best Member 2005

  • Member
  • 7,133 posts
  • Joined:10 Sep 2003
  • Location:Paisley, Scotland

  • Everyone likes a smouldering and sexy glare from a diminutive scientist.

Posted 28 September 2004 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE
to punish the Germans for what their parents/grandparents/great grandparents did could generate animosity with the Germans. How would that be beneficial for either country?


Exactly....I think it's a little late to be screaming for money after most of those responsible for what occured, and most of those who experienced it, are no longer alive huh.gif

Give me a few moments...I'm just going to go and demand an apology from some random Enlighsman for what Edward the Longshanks did to my country tongue.gif

...Either that, or unlike certain people on this site, I could stop using the suffering those who came before my had to endure as some kind of get out of jail free card everytime my country does something barbaric.

Posted Image

Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#20    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,524 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 28 September 2004 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE
Reparations is a major reason why Germany suffered so much after WW2, and why Hitler rose against Germany's neighbors.
Reparations doesn't solve anything, since it can't go back in time and undo what has already been done.

Agreed.

QUOTE
he atrocities suffered under Hitler are no less than the atrocities suffered under Stalin.

Also agreed - the Russian people suffered the same under Stalin as the Germans did under Hitler.
But the Russians didn't choose Stalin to run the country.


QUOTE
This is not to degrade the atrocities caused by the Nazi's, but that you will find these actions throughout history, and to punish the Germans for what their parents/grandparents/great grandparents did could generate animosity with the Germans.

Saying that things like that happened to others in history, when it didn't, is degrading the Holocaust.
And it also down size the conclusion we have to learn from it.
I do not think the Germans of today should be punished for what their grandparents did, but that need to take responsibilty for that, and it's a burden they have to carry with them. The Nazis, with their actions, insured that.

I still don't understand why I need to look behind my hatred to Wermacht and SS war criminals, who make up for the majority of those 9 million.

The German children who were carrying guns and died, and also the German children who died in German cities because of Allied raids, is totaly on the hands of the German themselves.
They opened that war, they acted like animals, their fate and destiny during the war was their and there's alone.
And they need to take the collective burden of their history.

I know Europe of today would like to hide this and many other skeletons in the closet, so they could preach quitely to the rest of the world about peace and love.
Well to bad for them.
There are things which would never be forgotten.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#21    Homer

Homer

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,814 posts
  • Joined:16 Mar 2001
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 28 September 2004 - 05:52 PM

QUOTE(Erikl @ Sep 28 2004, 12:16 PM)
QUOTE
This is not to degrade the atrocities caused by the Nazi's, but that you will find these actions throughout history, and to punish the Germans for what their parents/grandparents/great grandparents did could generate animosity with the Germans.

Saying that things like that happened to others in history, when it didn't, is degrading the Holocaust.
And it also down size the conclusion we have to learn from it.

Rwanda 1994, the majority Hutus slaughtered an estimated 800,000 of the minority Tutsi population, which is about 75% of Tutsiís.
This action, regardless of the name you want to call it, was a holocaust, and proved we still have much to learn from the holocaust caused by Naziís.

It must be understood that Germany didnít know what they were getting into when Hitler was elected. Although Hitler won the office of German chancellor in legal fashion, he was determined to rule Germany without the restraint of a democratically elected parliament. February 27, 1933 the naziís set fire to the Reichstag (parliament) building, and blamed it on the communists.
A decree was established under the Weimar Constitution, which allowed for the suspension of civil liberties, based on national security. Using force and intimidation against the existing parties, especially those of the socialists and communists, many elected representatives were jailed as political enemies or forced to flee the country. Without political opposition, the decree was never withdrawn.

The common German were not naziís and not even nazi sympathizers. They did not want dictatorship, they did not want war, and they did not want the holocaust.






אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#22    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,524 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 28 September 2004 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE
Rwanda 1994, the majority Hutus slaughtered an estimated 800,000 of the minority Tutsi population, which is about 75% of Tutsiís.
This action, regardless of the name you want to call it, was a holocaust, and proved we still have much to learn from the holocaust caused by Naziís.

True.
I can also name the Aremenian genocide done by the Turks (which they do not take responsibilty for, btw).

And indeed we have much to learn from what the Nazi did - and downgrading it, like other people have done, by equating it to the victims of an armed conflict, doesn't help this.
It's only upset nations who suffered from it.

QUOTE
The common German were not naziís and not even nazi sympathizers. They did not want dictatorship, they did not want war, and they did not want the holocaust.

The common German, who elected Hitler to power, might haven't want the holocaust, but the fact that so many Germans took part in it, that so many Germans were in the SS, that so many Germans were in the Nazi party, which was elected and wasn't forced upon the Germans, and the fact that the Germans did nothing when their Jewish neighbours and commrades, who lived with them for centuries, and who have done nothing wrong to them, does make the Germans as a nation responsible for those acts.
And when Hitler was winning the war, the Germans were Nazi sympathizers, they loved their fuhrer, and even when Germany was close to defeat, they still cheered him.

Ofcourse Germans who were persecuted by the Nazi party (homosexuals, mental ills, pacifist groups, Christian democrats, social democracts, and others that I didn't mention) as well as people who helped the victims of the Nazi party (like Oscar Schindler, which was a member of the Nazi party btw), and Germans who opposed the Nazi party's actions - they are all heroes in my view.

Not all the Germans were Nazis, true. But most of the Germans did nothing against the Nazis. They cheered them and admired them.

Edited by Erikl, 28 September 2004 - 06:54 PM.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#23    Talon

Talon

    UM Chess Tournament Champion 2005

  • Member
  • 15,003 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Paisley, Scotland

  • Life, Death, Anime inbetween

Posted 28 September 2004 - 07:03 PM

QUOTE
QUOTE
he has a point talon. the history i learn at chool will again show a different side of what happened. that is the problem with history. that is the problem with a lot of things, the POV about what happened will be different.



the problem with Talon's version of history, and if he represents the notion of history in Britain, then British version of history, is revisionism. It seem to me that up there in Europe, history is tought in light of the current world events.


I find it ironic that you bash European history for being from a certain point of view yet deny Israel can view history non objectively in the same why. While weíre on the subject, even the Nazis thought they were the good guys.


QUOTE
If Israel is currently looking bad, than lets down-size the Holocaust.
If the Palestinians don't have any historical ownership on the land, but still call it Palestinian lands instead of disputed territory, then lets invent a fictional historical Palestine.



No one downsizes the holocaust, in Europe it remains the ultimate Ďlook at the what humans can sink too, how can we stop it from happening again. You seem to use it as your personal red card against everyone else.



QUOTE
"My" version of history, or more accurately - the non revisionist and un-biased version of history, is nothing but anti-European. The fact the Europeans have a lot to be shame of about their recent history in their treatments to minorities, doesn't mean that history is anti-European.



Thank you for proving my point. tongue.gif  Youíre admitting to being Europhobic, and hardly objective if your denying anything good has come out of Europe. Werenít you in another thread going on about how Isreal has a combination of European cultures which makes it a European statesÖ So I guess by your history Israel is included in that taught anti-European history. rolleyes.gif


QUOTE
And that, Talon my friend, is exactly what youre doing.


Donít call me your friend if you seek to insult me in the same sentence.


QUOTE
No, there was a nation and a kingdom called Israel millenias ago.
Actually, the name Israel, in reference to a nation, first appears in Egyptian record of Canaan back in 1208 BC.
That's 3208 years of recorded history



As I believe I already said. tongue.gif



QUOTE
On the other hand, Ukranians and Belarussians are simply Russians who speak a different dialect of Old Eastern Slavonic, shared between all untill seperated by Lithuanian and Mongol occupation.
Ukranian nationalism, is even a more recent phenonmanon.



Belarus Ethnicity/race: Belorussian 81.2%, Russian 11.4%, Polish, Ukrainian, and other 7.4%

Ukranian Ethnicity/race: Ukrainian 77.8%, Russian 17.3%, Belarusian 0.6%, Moldovan 0.5%, Crimean Tatar 0.5%, Bulgarian 0.4%, Hungarian 0.3%, Romanian 0.3%, Polish 0.3%, Jewish 0.2%, other 1.8% (2001)

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0855617.html

Well they seem to see themselves as different, and in Ďdisputedí territories by the looks of it, seems everyone from Kiev, Poland, Lithuania, Germany, Russia have all claimed that land. Who are you to tell them they stole it from Poland. huh.gif



QUOTE
And if we are at nationalism - nationalism is a very recent phenonmanon, dated to the 18th century largely.


Evidence of nationalism has dated back thousands of years, its Modern nationalism, which has only been around a few hundred years. There is a difference between the two nationalisms.


QUOTE
I didn't say Ukraine isn't a true country - I said Ukranian as an ethnic identity and as a nation a pretty recent creation.


So? huh.gif  No ones business but their own on how they view themselves.


QUOTE
And even if they did - those Romans would have been totally different than the ancient Romans.


Just as people canít be blamed for the actions of their forefathers in Germany or East Europe. Blame someone for what they do, not for what their grandfathers did.


QUOTE
You dropped the important stuff - why and when did the Romans called it Palestine.
Well, in the 100th time, they called it Palestine after they exiled the Jews from Judea, as part of their campaign of rooting out any Jewish character of the land. The name "Palestine" orignated from the Israelites' most fierest foes - the Philistines (which by the time of the Romans were long gone, but like you and many other people can read Jewish history today through the bible, so did the Romans), a greek people who invaded the land from sea.
So the Romans called the land after it's people's most hated foe.



History is full of people stealing others land. The European-Americans stole it from Native Americans, the Romans/Germans stole Western Europe from the Celts, Europe occupied Africa etc etc.
Does mean we should go back and rectify it all (although we did with Africa).
At least your admitting the area for a long time was called something else, and in that time new peopleís settled in it.



QUOTE
You know exactly what I mean - comparing the Holocaust to simply a death in a war, and that like people died in a war, holding weapons in their hand, killed because they were fighting, to the butchering and slaugthering of men, women and children who have done nothing, who never committed a crime, is simply down sizing the Holocaust.


7,000,000 Soviet deaths were civilians, not soldiers. 3,600,000 German deaths were civilian, 150,000 more than their military. Now the with the GermanísÖ tough, we had to kill you to win a warÖ sorryÖ although I wonder how many were children. But with the Soviet civilians, I wouldnít demean their deaths so easily.

QUOTE
It is walking on a thin line here from Holocaust denial.


Oh grow up! Iím not denying the holocaust and youíre the only one who believes Iím doing such, Iím saying that as far as Iím concerned a civilian death is a death, and unlike some Iím not going to say its less or more important due to the place or method or race of death, or the race or religion of that individual.

If your going to start claiming Iím racist again Iím not interested in anything you have to say.



QUOTE
LOL
looks who is talking - Mr "I have BA you know", "I read books"


Which I only bring up when baka start claiming I donít know what Iím talking about. You on the other hand seem to manage to bring Anti-Semitism into every debate.



QUOTE
For example, when I gave an example of a country which was considered very civilized at the time, which in the same years produced the greatest horrors people ever saw, so to make a point that people tend to over estimate civilization, you misinterpretat that, again looking to the situation literally instead of as an example or a model where civilization failed.


Excuse me? huh.gif  Iím very much aware civilisation fell apart in the 1930s, as I said, Europe looks at that period and asks itself how to make sure it never happens again. If you donít say itís being an example, no one will treat it as such.


QUOTE
And even more related - on this thread, when I talked about Hitler's speeched against democracy, as a proof that the Germans knew they were electing a dictator, you started talking about the Germans' will for a war.


On the contary, I started talking about the war, because you said, and I quote:

ďThey also knew he would cancel democracy - because he promised it almost in every speech.
So the lost of 9 million Germans because of Hilter's regime is their fault alone.Ē

9 Million lost in war.

They may well have none that democracy would end, but they didnít expect a war.





QUOTE
Anyway, I think this thread is over.
You and I seem to always go off topic.
I hope this thread won't get locked because of us



Another agree is disagree? huh.gif Iím fine with that.


"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#24    Talon

Talon

    UM Chess Tournament Champion 2005

  • Member
  • 15,003 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Paisley, Scotland

  • Life, Death, Anime inbetween

Posted 28 September 2004 - 07:10 PM

QUOTE
Reparations is a major reason why Germany suffered so much after WW2, and why Hitler rose against Germany's neighbors.
Reparations doesn't solve anything, since it can't go back in time and undo what has already been done.
The atrocities suffered under Hitler are no less than the atrocities suffered under Stalin. This is not to degrade the atrocities caused by the Nazi's, but that you will find these actions throughout history, and to punish the Germans for what their parents/grandparents/great grandparents did could generate animosity with the Germans. How would that be beneficial for either country?



Agree, best go hand in hand into the future in peace.



QUOTE
Give me a few moments...I'm just going to go and demand an apology from some random Enlighsman for what Edward the Longshanks did to my country


laugh.gif


QUOTE
...Either that, or unlike certain people on this site, I could stop using the suffering those who came before my had to endure as some kind of get out of jail free card everytime my country does something barbaric.


tongue.gif A statement completely lost one some


QUOTE
Also agreed - the Russian people suffered the same under Stalin as the Germans did under Hitler.
But the Russians didn't choose Stalin to run the country.



Agreed, although I watching a documentary the other day and it says most Russian actually forgive Stalin for the atrocities because they appreciate it was all to make Russia a super powerÖ blink.gif



QUOTE
and it's a burden they have to carry with them.


I disagree, itís a burden ALL humans should carry, because all are capable of it in the darkness of the human soul. By burden I mean not punished for fore-parents actions, rather we must ALL always remember the warnings of history.



QUOTE
I still don't understand why I need to look behind my hatred to Wermacht and SS war criminals, who make up for the majority of those 9 million.



Nobody said hatred for the SS, they were scum, and so were most of the Whermacht. The issue is that with those thousands there may have been the a few hundreds who were only there because of the draft and fighting for a party their neighbours voted in. And by the end the Nazis were sending children to fightÖ. The most innocent of us made to fight a war between adults. crying.gif Anyway, as I already stated about 55% of German war fatalities were actually civilian, not military, good riddance to those building bombs or who voted Nazi, but I pity those who did not wish the Nazi regime onto Germany.

The German children who were carrying guns and died, and also the German children who died in German cities because of Allied raids, is totaly on the hands of the German themselves.

We did what we had to do. But once we again we are on the issue of children.
However much we needed to bomb that area to get at the workers and the factories, it is wrong to look at a child and not see a child, but collateral damage.


QUOTE
I know Europe of today would like to hide this and many other skeletons in the closet, so they could preach quitely to the rest of the world about peace and love.
Well to bad for them.
There are things which would never be forgotten.


Again the negative and completely untrue belief of European nations. I thought you said we would drop this issue? rolleyes.gif
Europe is very open with its history, most schools teach world war Historyís, everyone knows the horrors, nobody denies them, switch on the History channel, 9 times out of 10 its talking about WW2 (hell, an add for a history of the SS just appeared on screne, and at the mo there's a domcu on Britain betraying the Arabs when they were promaced independence rolleyes.gif ). As I said, we focus on it to make sure in Europe it is never done again.

We donít, despite your constant claims, hid it. But that doesnít mean the generations who follow have be consumed by it day after day, and not tell the world the truth. That Europe has put much of its darkest past behind it, not in denial or forgetting, but rather to show that we have learned from it and changed.


QUOTE
Rwanda 1994, the majority Hutus slaughtered an estimated 800,000 of the minority Tutsi population, which is about 75% of Tutsiís.
This action, regardless of the name you want to call it, was a holocaust, and proved we still have much to learn from the holocaust caused by Naziís.


Agreed


QUOTE
It must be understood that Germany didnít know what they were getting into when Hitler was elected. Although Hitler won the office of German chancellor in legal fashion, he was determined to rule Germany without the restraint of a democratically elected parliament. February 27, 1933 the naziís set fire to the Reichstag (parliament) building, and blamed it on the communists.
A decree was established under the Weimar Constitution, which allowed for the suspension of civil liberties, based on national security. Using force and intimidation against the existing parties, especially those of the socialists and communists, many elected representatives were jailed as political enemies or forced to flee the country. Without political opposition, the decree was never withdrawn.


Agreed



QUOTE
And indeed we have much to learn from what the Nazi did - and downgrading it, like other people have done, by equating it to the victims of an armed conflict, doesn't help this.


I disagree, the main horrific part about the Holocaust was the industrialised slaughter, not that it was of civilians (that was just part), as many atrocities have been committed against civilians.
A civilian life ultimately is a life. An many of those you brush off as armed conflict were just civilians killed for being a particular race or religion, which is genocide.





"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#25    Homer

Homer

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,814 posts
  • Joined:16 Mar 2001
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 28 September 2004 - 07:47 PM

QUOTE(Erikl @ Sep 28 2004, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE
Rwanda 1994, the majority Hutus slaughtered an estimated 800,000 of the minority Tutsi population, which is about 75% of Tutsiís.
This action, regardless of the name you want to call it, was a holocaust, and proved we still have much to learn from the holocaust caused by Naziís.

True.
I can also name the Aremenian genocide done by the Turks (which they do not take responsibilty for, btw).

And indeed we have much to learn from what the Nazi did - and downgrading it, like other people have done, by equating it to the victims of an armed conflict, doesn't help this.
It's only upset nations who suffered from it.


I personally have never downgraded the holocaust, nor do I know of anyone who has. The Rwanda holocaust/massacre/genocide(whatever you want to call it) is not an armed conflict involving two armed hostile armies combating each other. Instead it is the majority Hutus slaughtering an unarmed minority Tutsiís. To state that what I have posted would upset nations who have suffered from the holocaust only shows you know nothing of which you are talking about

QUOTE
The common German, who elected Hitler to power, might haven't want the holocaust, but the fact that so many Germans took part in it, that so many Germans were in the SS, that so many Germans were in the Nazi party, which was elected and wasn't forced upon the Germans, and the fact that the Germans did nothing when their Jewish neighbours and commrades, who lived with them for centuries, and who have done nothing wrong to them, does make the Germans as a nation responsible for those acts.
And when Hitler was winning the war, the Germans were Nazi sympathizers, they loved their fuhrer, and even when Germany was close to defeat, they still cheered him.

When Germany was winning the war, they loved their Fuhrer to the extent that he made Germany a proud and powerful nation that punished those that brought the hardships of Versailles. The Germans were not, however, supporters or sympathizers of the naziís. When Germany was in decline, the population hated Hitler, and blamed him. But due to the secret police, were scared to voice their true frustrations.

At any rate, Germany has previously recognized and condemned the acts caused by the naziís. To force reparations on the Germans would not be contructive




אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users