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No man shall see God and live?


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#121    ChloeB

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:47 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 February 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I was referring to the concepts of suffering and attachment.  I am not ignorant of Buddhist teaching (though I don't claim to be an expert).  The key comments used to support this view have been by those who want to argue that the "sword" referred to cutting off the ego - attachment, and thus by removing attachment suffering ceases.  This is Buddhist to the core.  You have not brought this idea forth.  Neither has Habitat.  But other members have tried to link the concepts and in that view I totally disagree.

PA, sorry to resurrect this a bit, but I was listening to Eckhart Tolle yesterday and you know a lot of what he says is very similar to Buddhist teachings (and no, EB and Habitat weren't putting forth the idea, it was Bill Moyers first and then me and Libstak maybe some I think) but anyhoo, I know you don't agree with that about suffering, but Tolle mentioned something in that I was listening to about what is the very symbol for Christianity?  The cross...and yeah I know you don't so much, but about every Christian I know sees the cross as the symbol of their religion, and what is the cross a symbol of, why is a torture device the symbol?  It is a symbol for suffering....and to me, Jesus death on the cross was an end to that suffering, and it makes perfect sense to me that is what he was showing the way for, death of ego.  His death being some bargaining chip for a get ouf of jail free card and that checks and balances idea of paying off some sort of cosmic debt to a God that assigned the debt and paid it back to himself as himself in the form of a human, just seems so much more manufactured and artificial to me and doesn't make sense, never has to me.  Anyway, just something that I came across and made me think and of course I had to tell you guys, lol.

Edited by ChloeB, 19 February 2012 - 04:48 PM.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#122    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:13 PM

^ Hi Chloe,

In the context of the passage we are talking about, "death of the ego" is not in the context unless you take the view that they are separate speeches of Jesus that have been amalgamated and the context in which they are presented don't reflect the original.  Which is ok to believe, if that is what you believe.  But Bible-believing Christians won't ever agree because they use context - in this case that the author intentionally chose to link the concepts of persecution from family.  Are we wrong?  Maybe, but we look at the context.

Likewise the crucifixion is simply death.  And while that does result in the cessation of suffering, I think it a stretch to overlay inherently Buddhist philosophies on top of this just in order to vindicate a preconceived position.  Take the text as the text and move from there. Use the text to interpret the text.  Not a concept to then fit into the text.  That is my opinion on what is being done here.  

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it :tu:

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#123    ChloeB

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:27 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 19 February 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

^ Hi Chloe,

In the context of the passage we are talking about, "death of the ego" is not in the context unless you take the view that they are separate speeches of Jesus that have been amalgamated and the context in which they are presented don't reflect the original.  Which is ok to believe, if that is what you believe.  But Bible-believing Christians won't ever agree because they use context - in this case that the author intentionally chose to link the concepts of persecution from family.  Are we wrong?  Maybe, but we look at the context.

Likewise the crucifixion is simply death.  And while that does result in the cessation of suffering, I think it a stretch to overlay inherently Buddhist philosophies on top of this just in order to vindicate a preconceived position.  Take the text as the text and move from there. Use the text to interpret the text.  Not a concept to then fit into the text.  That is my opinion on what is being done here.  

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it :tu:

~ PA

I'm not trying to change your opinion, PA.  It was just something that I came across that I felt expanded on the point here.  I'd never expect you to change your opinion on any of it, ever.  I doubt any religion has evolved free of influence by others, I'm sorry if it upsets you we thought Christianity may have some influence of Buddhist thought, which I think is likely, as Buddhist though I'm sure had influence of others.  That's what I think is the important thing, to look for the thread that runs through them all, if there's anything worth taking seriously, it would be something that stood the tests of time and culture and reappears, not arrives on the scene to the chosen ones or at some time one man out of all history claims to be God and this one for some reason is.  I think if there's a God or anything to spirituality, it's going to come through repetitively all over the world, throughout history.  This idea you accept some idea someone died for you, pays off your debts seems to me like a misled idea.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#124    Beany

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:20 PM

There were so many interesting & well-thought out posts I had to go back to the original to catch the thread. About God's back-side, about God, this is what I'm thinking, without yet having reached any conclusions. First, I see God as an informed intelligent energy that powers the universe, not as an anthropomorphic being. Starting with that premise, perhaps the back-side is all that exists, the cosmos, us, our planet, plants, animals, oceans, etc. That this informed energy does manifest itself in the physical world, it is everywhere, within us, and external from us. Lately I've been questioning my assumption that this energy is divine in nature, within the religious context of divine. Perhaps it could be called divine in the larger context that it is everpresent.

In regard to the sword, perhaps it's a metaphor for "cutting away" the illusion that we are separate from that intelligent energy. Personally, I often move between two realities, one that is mundane, without meaning it as a perjorative, which is wonderful, the everyday world, full of passion, love, confusion, the human condition, so to speak. Being human, my intention is to make the most out of my lifetime here, to celebrate every day. The other reality I experience is an awareness of, metaphor coming, the muscles, bones, nerves, blood of our physical world, that can't be seen but exists, nevertheless, those things beneather the surface that keep everything going. I'm not sure I'm verbalizing this very clearly, it's sometimes difficult to find the language for it. Whatever the truth is, without even being sure there is any truth to find, I find life a blessing, and for that I am grateful.


#125    ChloeB

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:31 PM

View PostBeany, on 19 February 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

There were so many interesting & well-thought out posts I had to go back to the original to catch the thread. About God's back-side, about God, this is what I'm thinking, without yet having reached any conclusions. First, I see God as an informed intelligent energy that powers the universe, not as an anthropomorphic being. Starting with that premise, perhaps the back-side is all that exists, the cosmos, us, our planet, plants, animals, oceans, etc. That this informed energy does manifest itself in the physical world, it is everywhere, within us, and external from us. Lately I've been questioning my assumption that this energy is divine in nature, within the religious context of divine. Perhaps it could be called divine in the larger context that it is everpresent.

In regard to the sword, perhaps it's a metaphor for "cutting away" the illusion that we are separate from that intelligent energy. Personally, I often move between two realities, one that is mundane, without meaning it as a perjorative, which is wonderful, the everyday world, full of passion, love, confusion, the human condition, so to speak. Being human, my intention is to make the most out of my lifetime here, to celebrate every day.

I liked this post very much.  That cutting away from that intelligent energy (and I liked that phrase "intelligent" energy, I may borrow that) is a metaphor for cutting away the illusion that we were separate.  I had that similar feeling when I said maybe what dies when you see the true face of God is the illusion that you were ever separate at all.

View PostBeany, on 19 February 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

The other reality I experience is an awareness of, metaphor coming, the muscles, bones, nerves, blood of our physical world, that can't be seen but exists, nevertheless, those things beneather the surface that keep everything going. I'm not sure I'm verbalizing this very clearly, it's sometimes difficult to find the language for it. Whatever the truth is, without even being sure there is any truth to find, I find life a blessing, and for that I am grateful.

I actually think I know what you're talking about and if I ever try to talk about it, I feel like I can't express it clearly, but I've tried on here a few times, but I had an experience where I kind of went into an altered consciousness or expanded consciousness maybe, but what you said about the body and blood and nerves, etc. of our physical world, it was the same for me, in a car on a highway you felt like a part of a bigger organism, the cells traveling through vessels, that car on that highway, for just a little while it was that way.  I think many people have had that similar experience.  It's what always makes me want to learn more about Gaia theory.  :)

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#126    Beany

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 11:52 PM

I feel like we don't really have the language for these kinds of experiences, other than religious. It's a different sort of consciousness or awareness that is usually spoken of or referred to in religious or spiritual terms, but isn't necessarily either one of those things, IMHO. It could be just a human experience, sort of like learning to read. At first we see all these symbols on the page that make no sense, but eventually we begin to see and understand what they represent. Or like seeing a color-plate of a Reubens or Rembrandt or Seurat in an art book, and then finally standing in front of the real deal, and realizing how much more beautiful, complex and detailed it is. Or like seeing photos of Yosemite and then finally visiting; one really can't get the essence of either without personal experience, and that experience stays with us.


#127    Kryso

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:05 AM

View PostChloeB, on 09 February 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:


23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Does this mean God was the first to invent the Moonie :)


#128    ambelamba

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 01:41 AM

I will say the same thing again.

Maybe the 'god' Moses saw was an impostor. Not the devil or anything like that, just a John Frum figure with incredibly bad temper.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

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#129    Beany

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 05:06 PM

I've been thinking the term "back-side" sounds decidedly unbiblical in terms of language, and wondering if it is a translation or interpretation, which it probably is, what the original language was and how else it could be interpreted. Maybe the semantics needs to be addressed.


#130    ChloeB

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:07 AM

View PostJor-el, on 13 February 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

No, I wouldn't call them archetypes. I would call these agents (there is actually only one) or avatars, "Gods middleman". This way God can physically manifest himself without his "Glory" tagging along.

I have this image in my mind of Carl Sagans explanation of the 4th dimension, which would help us with this particular discussion. Here is the video...


I would say that the agent or the Avatar, is that part of God which visibly touches our space time continuum.... and thus becomes visible to us. To be shown God in his full Glory, would be to jump into his dimension, that would kill us.

I hope the video helps to explain what I'm driving at.... ^_^

I finally got back to watch this, but that actually makes some sense and is kind of cool to think about that.  An avatar is sort of like that 3-dimension apple in all it's "Glory" not being able to be seen in the flatland 2-D world so the cross section of the apple is sort of like the avatar of God, but one dimension below.  I've thought about it and thought about it, I can't see what would distinguish Jesus as different in the context of looking at it like this than another angel or messenger or such.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#131    ChloeB

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:13 AM

View PostBeany, on 20 February 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

I've been thinking the term "back-side" sounds decidedly unbiblical in terms of language, and wondering if it is a translation or interpretation, which it probably is, what the original language was and how else it could be interpreted. Maybe the semantics needs to be addressed.

I know, it really did sound out of place didn't it?  I really don't know about the translation, if something was lost, but it's very possible.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#132    Jor-el

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 02:21 PM

View PostChloeB, on 21 February 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

I finally got back to watch this, but that actually makes some sense and is kind of cool to think about that.  An avatar is sort of like that 3-dimension apple in all it's "Glory" not being able to be seen in the flatland 2-D world so the cross section of the apple is sort of like the avatar of God, but one dimension below.  I've thought about it and thought about it, I can't see what would distinguish Jesus as different in the context of looking at it like this than another angel or messenger or such.

Hi Chloe,

I'm glad you got the time to watch the video, it immediately becomes self explanatory, does it not?

As for your final thought on the issue, it is quite clear cut that we are not dealing with an angel or messenger, because the bible actually demonstrates that the two are One and that the One is actually two...

To understand this concept we have to go back to the bible, and by doing so we come to realize that there are things there that we have never imagined but that the old Rabbis and earlier Israelites were quick to catch on to.

I have been having a discussion on this matter with Dying Seraph on another thread, but I'll post a video I also made available to him so that you can get what I'm saying. I warn you it is 60 minutes long, but I think it will be well worth it to hear what is being taught in this classroom.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/8792424" width="400" height="250" frameborder="0"></iframe>



Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#133    ChloeB

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:06 PM

View PostJor-el, on 21 February 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Hi Chloe,

I'm glad you got the time to watch the video, it immediately becomes self explanatory, does it not?

As for your final thought on the issue, it is quite clear cut that we are not dealing with an angel or messenger, because the bible actually demonstrates that the two are One and that the One is actually two...

To understand this concept we have to go back to the bible, and by doing so we come to realize that there are things there that we have never imagined but that the old Rabbis and earlier Israelites were quick to catch on to.

I have been having a discussion on this matter with Dying Seraph on another thread, but I'll post a video I also made available to him so that you can get what I'm saying. I warn you it is 60 minutes long, but I think it will be well worth it to hear what is being taught in this classroom.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/8792424" width="400" height="250" frameborder="0"></iframe>


Yeah, it sure does.  I liked that.  Thank you for the video, and I've got to be honest, I don't know when I'll have time to watch it, but DS said he was going to watch it, and I'll at least have him fill me in on the highlights for sure.  Thanks again, and it's nice to see you back around.  We missed you.  :yes:  :)

Edited by ChloeB, 22 February 2012 - 09:07 PM.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#134    Jor-el

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:53 PM

View PostChloeB, on 22 February 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Yeah, it sure does.  I liked that.  Thank you for the video, and I've got to be honest, I don't know when I'll have time to watch it, but DS said he was going to watch it, and I'll at least have him fill me in on the highlights for sure.  Thanks again, and it's nice to see you back around.  We missed you.  :yes:  :)

Thanks, it was a break I really needed.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#135    Hawkins

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:05 AM

Very good. On the other hand, even when God doesn't show up but to talk to you as a transparent entity, say in a small room with you. How will you be able to describe the situation? You are still talking to him "face to face" with His transparent form.





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