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More Iran Sanctions?


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#1    and then

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:13 PM

http://www.foxnews.c...uclear-weapons/

This might work to avert war but it could also hurt the world's economy.  Which is more important to the majority?

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#2    wittyusernamefailed

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:59 PM

Well besides the issue of damaging the neutrality of a majority international "bank"; the main problem with slapping more sanctions on Iran is that it will not be hurting the right people quickly enough. Yes the Iran Government will begin to feel the pinch, but the economic meltdown will hurt the avg person on the street far quicker, thus making them hate the west while actually strengthening the regime in their own country.I think that at this point sanctions and such things are bound to fail.
  As long as Iran is ruled by an unpopular theocracy that is holding on by military force and fear; and is more afraid of loosing power to revolution than playing chicken with the world. As long as such things hold true negotiations and logic will prove fruitless, and the world will inevitably be drawn to war, much in the way we were drawn into war with Germany in WW2

Edited by wittyusernamefailed, 15 February 2012 - 10:00 PM.


#3    and then

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:14 PM

View Postwittyusernamefailed, on 15 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Well besides the issue of damaging the neutrality of a majority international "bank"; the main problem with slapping more sanctions on Iran is that it will not be hurting the right people quickly enough. Yes the Iran Government will begin to feel the pinch, but the economic meltdown will hurt the avg person on the street far quicker, thus making them hate the west while actually strengthening the regime in their own country.I think that at this point sanctions and such things are bound to fail.
  As long as Iran is ruled by an unpopular theocracy that is holding on by military force and fear; and is more afraid of loosing power to revolution than playing chicken with the world. As long as such things hold true negotiations and logic will prove fruitless, and the world will inevitably be drawn to war, much in the way we were drawn into war with Germany in WW2

Compelling the average people to rise up may be the last card prior to bombs falling.  Unfortunately they will be scourged either way.  Status Quo almost guarantees a future war in the region between nuclear powers.  Saudis have already publicly spoken of buying a nuke until they can build their own.  Iran has offered the fuel cycle to any African country with uranium deposits to trade...
Ultimately the only real hope is that the average citizens will overthrow the Ayatollahs.

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#4    Yamato

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:45 AM

View Postand then, on 15 February 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Compelling the average people to rise up may be the last card prior to bombs falling.  Unfortunately they will be scourged either way.  Status Quo almost guarantees a future war in the region between nuclear powers.  Saudis have already publicly spoken of buying a nuke until they can build their own.  Iran has offered the fuel cycle to any African country with uranium deposits to trade...
Ultimately the only real hope is that the average citizens will overthrow the Ayatollahs.
If Iran believes that an Israeli attack is an imminent threat, shouldn't they preemptively attack Israel?  Or is the logic only applicable to what you find politically tenable?

If I knew that any foreign power was going to bomb my country unless I rose up against my own government, that would be the best cure for rebellion I can think of.  Logic that can't be applied both ways is best not believed in.

Playing game theory in this Sunni vs. Shi'ite monkey business is yet another stupid mistake this state of ours can't stop making when it comes to the drama of the Middle East.  I'd gladly pay $10/gallon for gasoline if I could cut the oil pipeline in two for good because as things stand I'll be paying those $10 bills to Communists in China for nothing but a failed state and half a world of hate.

Sanctions kill children they don't stop nuclear programs.  Wake up, heartless partisans.  The dirty democrats are at it again.  500,000 more dead kids are still "worth it".

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#5    and then

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:18 AM

View PostYamato, on 16 February 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

If Iran believes that an Israeli attack is an imminent threat, shouldn't they preemptively attack Israel?  Or is the logic only applicable to what you find politically tenable?

If I knew that any foreign power was going to bomb my country unless I rose up against my own government, that would be the best cure for rebellion I can think of.  Logic that can't be applied both ways is best not believed in.

Playing game theory in this Sunni vs. Shi'ite monkey business is yet another stupid mistake this state of ours can't stop making when it comes to the drama of the Middle East.  I'd gladly pay $10/gallon for gasoline if I could cut the oil pipeline in two for good because as things stand I'll be paying those $10 bills to Communists in China for nothing but a failed state and half a world of hate.

Sanctions kill children they don't stop nuclear programs.  Wake up, heartless partisans.  The dirty democrats are at it again.  500,000 more dead kids are still "worth it".
Half million?  Why not 2 or 3 million?  It's no more arbitrary or silly a number to pull out of the aether.  The Iran problem will be dealt with now or later.  It is an issue of one nation clamoring for raw power at the expense of the rest of the world.  The weakness demonstrated by our current administration (and the prior one) has fed the beast and now it can't be stopped.  I happen to agree that sanctions hurt the wrong people and will not work.  But doing nothing assures a Theocracy in the region with nukes.  It assures more proliferation.  It guarantees greater instability.  
Isolating from the region and acting as though we'd suffer no consequences from a nuclear Iran is silly.  It's like arguing for the "right" of an actively belligerent neighbor to own firearms.  Noble in theory but should keep rational neighbors sleeping with one eye open.
Only the Iranians can stop their government from pursuing nukes.  They are an imprisoned people just now but if the IRGC and the Basijj are pounded into disarray, who knows what the people might be inspired to do?  Especially if aiding them with secure communications/arms while bombing the bases of the aforementioned.

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#6    shaddow134

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:56 PM

From what i read this morning Obama's cabinet are already doubting that sanctions will  work and some are pushing for air strikes either by the US or Isreal.

Maybe this was always in mind,with the removal of US troops from Iraq.

Personally speaking,i think the US have got it wrong again and have overplayed the Nuclear Threat from Iraq.

Edited by shaddow134, 18 February 2012 - 01:57 PM.

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#7    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 02:43 PM

Yamato your reasoning is spot on. It always makes me giggle watching the double standards being applied to These types of situations. According to and then's own logic, and Iranian attack on Israel would be entirely justified. Just giggled a bit there again, sorry.

Well, I'm still waiting for and then's proof that the Iranians are building the bomb. He seems to have inside knowledge of some kind and to be honest I thought he would have informed the IAEA by now, or his own government as both have been struggling for years to find ANY proof whatsoever. It would be An epic find if I'm being honest because ALL nuclear material in Iran is completely accounted for and each nuclear site in Iran is inspected regularly - including furrow deep in the mountain (15 times they've inspected that one) Maybe they've discovered bow to turn tungsten into weapons grade uranium? That would be an achievement and a half.

An informative article for anyone interested and who hasn't read my countless posts over the years on the subject: http://original.anti...n-nuclear-site/


#8    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 02:56 PM

And then, if you think the number 'half a million' is silly then you may want to go and educate yourself on the direct effects of the sanctions and embargoes on Iraq after the first Gulf war. Horrendous is the only way to describe our governments' actions, not only there but all around the world. Literally speaking we are by far the worst and most active terrorists in the world. Our governments, I should say.


You could also have a look at the truly devastating effects on civilians that the North Korea sanctions have had since the fall of the Soviet Union. We truly have a cheek to call al' Qaeda. Terrorists. That's like Ted Bundy calling Charles Manson a murderer. Lol.


#9    sam12six

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 04:08 PM

I don't know what Iran's problem is. If Iran would just grant all her oil rights to Israel and have her citizens convert to Christianity, everyone would get along fine, but noooooo - they insist on preparing to defend themselves against a war run-up that is virtually identical to one they saw a decade ago that resulted in the complete devastation of a neighboring nation.

In the mean time, we (the good guys) will continue to suggest arming insurgents to fight against their government while we demonize Iran for its state sponsored terrorism. There's no evidence I'm aware of that Iran is trying to get a nuke, but if they are, WHO THE HELL COULD BLAME THEM?!?

Our (by which I mean a fair percentage of Americans and Israelis) reaction to Iran's reaction to our provocation reminds me of being a kid in school when a bully would lunge at someone then pull up and if they threw their hands up to defend themselves would say, "What's wrong? Scared? You want to fight? Is that why you're putting your hands up? If you're looking for an ass-kicking, I'll be happy to give it to you..."


#10    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 04:47 PM

Awesome post sam


#11    Kryso

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 04:56 PM

View Postsam12six, on 18 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I don't know what Iran's problem is. If Iran would just grant all her oil rights to Israel and have her citizens convert to Christianity, everyone would get along fine, but noooooo - they insist on preparing to defend themselves against a war run-up that is virtually identical to one they saw a decade ago that resulted in the complete devastation of a neighboring nation.


If only everyone could see this. Maybe a few million sheets dropped over cities would work?

I like your thinking.


#12    and then

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:18 PM

You guys remind me of the Statler and Waldorf muppet comedy team.  The two old guys in the balconey who trash the efforts of everyone on the stage. :w00t:
The proof I have that Iran is actively pursuing a bomb is that the world community is convinced enough to be risking war to stop them.  To a person with an open mind that should be a valid point.  After many discussions with YAMEX et.al. I have concluded that your bias against Israel is greater than my bias for it.  That's your right and I have no problem with it but both of you are foolish for justifying a nuclear Iran.  And that IS what you're doing.  You'll probably smile when the news of an Iranian bomb test is announced.  But I predict that this issue will come home to bite all of us on the *ss some day soon if they are allowed to build and then become a Theocratic bully in the region.  An arms race will begin immediately so Iran will only have a brief window to impose their will and they may just overplay and miscalculate.  
I'm glad you have such great concern for the Iraqi and Iranian children.  Haven't heard much from either of you about the Syrian children being butchered though.  Maybe that's because America can't be vilified for it.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
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“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#13    stevewinn

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:44 PM

View Postexpandmymind, on 18 February 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Yamato your reasoning is spot on. It always makes me giggle watching the double standards being applied to These types of situations. According to and then's own logic, and Iranian attack on Israel would be entirely justified. Just giggled a bit there again, sorry.

Well, I'm still waiting for and then's proof that the Iranians are building the bomb. He seems to have inside knowledge of some kind and to be honest I thought he would have informed the IAEA by now, or his own government as both have been struggling for years to find ANY proof whatsoever. It would be An epic find if I'm being honest because ALL nuclear material in Iran is completely accounted for and each nuclear site in Iran is inspected regularly - including furrow deep in the mountain (15 times they've inspected that one) Maybe they've discovered bow to turn tungsten into weapons grade uranium? That would be an achievement and a half.

An informative article for anyone interested and who hasn't read my countless posts over the years on the subject: http://original.anti...n-nuclear-site/

taken from the latest IAEA report.


K. Summary

52. While the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared nuclear material at the nuclear
facilities and LOFs declared by Iran under its Safeguards Agreement, as Iran is not providing the
necessary cooperation, including by not implementing its Additional Protocol, the Agency is unable to
provide credible assurance about the absence of undeclared nuclear material and activities in Iran, and
therefore to conclude that all nuclear material in Iran is in peaceful activities.

53. The Agency has serious concerns regarding possible military dimensions to Iranís nuclear
programme. After assessing carefully and critically the extensive information available to it, the Agency
finds the information to be, overall, credible. The information indicates that Iran has carried out activities
relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device. The information also indicates that prior to the
end of 2003, these activities took place under a structured programme, and that some activities may still be
ongoing.

54. Given the concerns identified above, Iran is requested to engage substantively with the Agency
without delay for the purpose of providing clarifications regarding possible military dimensions to Iranís
nuclear programme as identified in the Annex to this report.

55. The Agency is working with Iran with a view to resolving the discrepancy identified during the
recent PIV at JHL.

56. The Director General urges Iran, as required in the binding resolutions of the Board of Governors and
mandatory Security Council resolutions, to take steps towards the full implementation of its Safeguards
Agreement and its other obligations, including: implementation of the provisions of its Additional
Protocol; implementation of the modified Code 3.1 of the Subsidiary Arrangements General Part to its
Safeguards Agreement; suspension of enrichment related activities; suspension of heavy water related
activities; and, as referred to above, addressing the Agencyís serious concerns about possible military
dimensions to Iranís nuclear programme, in order to establish international confidence in the exclusively
peaceful nature of Iranís nuclear programme.

57. The Director General will continue to report as appropriate.

31. Since its visit to the Heavy Water Production Plant (HWPP) on 17 August 2011, the Agency, in a
letter to Iran dated 20 October 2011, requested further access to HWPP. The Agency has yet to receive a
reply to that letter, and is again relying on satellite imagery to monitor the status of HWPP. Based on
recent images, the HWPP appears to be in operation. To date, Iran has not provided the Agency access to
the heavy water stored at the Uranium Conversion Facility (UCF) in order to take samples.


G. Possible Military Dimensions

38. Previous reports by the Director General have identified outstanding issues related to possible
military dimensions to Iranís nuclear programme and actions required of Iran to resolve these.33 Since
2002, the Agency has become increasingly concerned about the possible existence in Iran of undisclosed
nuclear related activities involving military related organizations, including activities related to the
development of a nuclear payload for a missile, about which the Agency has regularly received new
information.

to avert war all Iran has to do is provide all the requested information. allow unlimited access to IAEA inspectors. instead of doing what they've been doing and continuing to do, which is playing ****ing games. throughout every IAEA report its clear Iran are not fully co-operating. if Iran's nuclear program was peaceful they'd be open and honest. just read the report.

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#14    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:55 PM

You fail to understand, Steve, that they are not legally obliged to do any such thing. It is a matter of principle for the Iranians that they are being ordered (harrassed, in truth) to go above and beyond what is asked of them as a signatory of the NPT. All the while the main instigator of this nonsense is a violent country that itself has an arsenal of nuclear weapons and flat out refuses to either sign the NPT (unlike other nuclear counties barring India and Pakistan - which, trust me, I have a problem with. Especially seeing as, along with the paranoid Israelis, are the two most likely to use them) or allow inspectors in. It's no wonder iran are telling the western [practically] controlled leader of the IAEA to eff off.

Steve, I would love you to name one single thing that Iran have done that is in violation of the NPT. One. Single. Thing. They have already went well above and beyond what they are requires but Still they are having the **** ripped right out of them.

And then, did you find that evidence then? Mind pming me it?

Edited by expandmymind, 18 February 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#15    and then

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:02 PM

View Postexpandmymind, on 18 February 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

You fail to understand, Steve, that they are not legally obliged to do any such thing. It is a matter of principle for the Iranians that they are being ordered (harrassed, in truth) to go above and beyond what is asked of them as a signatory of the NPT. All the while the main instigator of this nonsense is a violent country that itself has an arsenal of nuclear weapons and flat out refuses to either sign the NPT (unlike other nuclear counties barring India and Pakistan - which, trust me, I have a problem with. Especially seeing as, along with the paranoid Israelis, are the two most likely to use them) or allow inspectors in. It's no wonder iran are telling the western [practically] controlled leader of the IAEA to eff off.

Steve, I would love you to name one single thing that Iran have done that is in violation of the NPT. One. Single. Thing. They have already went well above and beyond what they are requires but Still they are having the **** ripped right out of them.

And then, did you find that evidence then? Mind pming me it?
I have no such evidence.  All I have are opinions based on what I can see and hear in the media.  Unless you are privy to the leadership in Iran I suspect your sources are similar.  As I pointed out earlier, I feel no need to convince someone who's in the bag for the evil dictators in Iran.  I don't understand people who childishly condone Iran in it's spreading of terror world wide.  Before you get feeling too smug and safe in your hometown  just remember that you are already in range of their missiles.  It must be grand for you to sit on your high perch and judge the world as though your opinion actually mattered in the whole business.  We are judged by the company we keep Ex.  Boot licking for ruthless  dictators isn't much of a claim to honor in the real world.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.




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