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Was Christ a Yogi?


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#91    Paranoid Android

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 20 February 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

There's no twisting at all. You are being unreasonable. You are looking for nothing but some words from "me:" that you can rip apart and ridicule or just disagree with "pleasantly," perhaps.
You are half right.  I did want some words from "you".  However, I had no intention of ridiculing it (though I may have simply politely disagreed with it.


View PostShabd Mystic, on 20 February 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

I have absolutely no problem with "sharing" anything I believe with someone I think is sincerely interested in seeing what i think (even if they believe my thoughts are crazy). Once they show they are only interested in a "debate" then I'm done.
And who decided that I was only interested in "debate"?  It was you, and since you came to that conclusion, then even though it was a wrong conclusion, you just shut down and would not engage my honest and sincere question.  I am not interested in debate, I have said this several times.  I was not asking of you anything that I don't ask of myself when someone asks me a question about my beliefs.  When I'm asked a question about my beliefs, I'm not just going to say - "it's out on google, search yourself".  And I'm not going to simply go to google, search a link and then link it and say "read".  I'll share my opinion in my own words, explain why I believe what I do.  Perhaps I will offer alternative explanations and give my reasons why I accept one interpretation over another.  If necessary I will then provide links for further research for them to look into it themselves.  


View PostShabd Mystic, on 20 February 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

If you had a desire to 'battle" me or 'attack" me in any way, i just gave you a TON of material. So use that. If you really just wanted to "get to know me" then i surely gave you that as well, and you'll have no reason to attack or criticize anything I wrote. We'll see how that goes.  ;)
Yes, there's a ton of material - I'd already checked it out before you even gave it to me (believe it or not - not that exact site, but sites like it with similar information).  Paul vs Jesus is not a new argument that I had never come across before.  I looked into it long ago also.  And no, I'm not going to attack you or belittle you with it.  I disagree with it, and I have my reasons for disagreeing.  I was asking so that I could get a better idea of your opinion.  That was all.  I'm sorry that I gave off the impression that I was spoiling for a fight or argument, because I think if you never arrived at that conclusion of me, the question would have been resolved many posts ago.  

Thanks for the discussion, in any case :tu:

~ PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 20 February 2012 - 08:55 AM.

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#92    Habitat

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:00 AM

The problem of mysticism is that 'unity consciousness' is impenetrable by rational thinking, which only recognizes discrimination, difference, and distinction, else it has nothing to process or compare. And that is why mysticism seems like utter nonsense to the modern scientific mindset.


#93    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:26 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 20 February 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:


With respect, you don't seem to understand what I was asking.  I am not asking for proof.  I am asking for his personal opinion in his own words.  That was it. I even said that once he did that I wouldn't even argue, and even if I disagreed I would still just say "thanks, I disagree but I understand you better than I did before".  I am not trying to prolong an argument or to prove that proof is not possible.  That's not it at all.  



I'll just say that, on the Web over the years, I have said "I agree" or "I disagree" with hundreds of things. When it was a commonly held viewpoint that was a very complex issue with tons of reasons for me feeling that way, not once did anyone on any message board hound me for days to  "put into writing the reasons that I felt that way." A link to a Web site that broke it down was always more than enough. If they wanted to go read it and then come back and argue various points then we did that.

I was never required to "write a term paper." Until now, at least. Evidently my saying the same thing many others have said is a big deal to you. Perhaps you'd just like me to cut and paste someone else's work. Therefore it would mimic what I think and it would be placed on this message board so you don't have to go to the trouble of clicking any links.

Or do you need me to restructure the sentences so they can pass a copyright check?

This is an issue that has been bandied about for about 1,700 years and by some of history's greatest minds. I arrived at "my" opinion by reading many of theirs. I don't have a single "original" thought on this idea. Anything I could come up with has already been said by others.

Your obsession with seeing me parrot the opinions of others has gone way beyond "strange."


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#94    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 20 February 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

You are half right.  I did want some words from "you".  However, I had no intention of ridiculing it (though I may have simply politely disagreed with it.


And who decided that I was only interested in "debate"?  It was you, and since you came to that conclusion, then even though it was a wrong conclusion, you just shut down and would not engage my honest and sincere question.  I am not interested in debate, I have said this several times.  I was not asking of you anything that I don't ask of myself when someone asks me a question about my beliefs.  When I'm asked a question about my beliefs, I'm not just going to say - "it's out on google, search yourself".  And I'm not going to simply go to google, search a link and then link it and say "read".  I'll share my opinion in my own words, explain why I believe what I do.  Perhaps I will offer alternative explanations and give my reasons why I accept one interpretation over another.  If necessary I will then provide links for further research for them to look into it themselves.  


Yes, there's a ton of material - I'd already checked it out before you even gave it to me (believe it or not - not that exact site, but sites like it with similar information).  Paul vs Jesus is not a new argument that I had never come across before.  I looked into it long ago also.  And no, I'm not going to attack you or belittle you with it.  I disagree with it, and I have my reasons for disagreeing.  I was asking so that I could get a better idea of your opinion.  That was all.  I'm sorry that I gave off the impression that I was spoiling for a fight or argument, because I think if you never arrived at that conclusion of me, the question would have been resolved many posts ago.  

Thanks for the discussion, in any case :tu:

~ PA


It's very clear that you just love to argue. If it isn't about "Paul" then it's about my not wanting to lay out my reasons for believing what I do about Paul.

Maybe this will finally end it.

Regarding everything you've said for days you have been declared the:


Posted Image


I hope that will finally put this to rest. (But, as I've said several times, I seriously doubt it).


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#95    J. K.

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 19 February 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

I am so glad to hear that JK. I mean that sincerely. I'm sorry if i came across 'harsh" with my comments but I tend to get a bit defensive sometimes with this subject because I get a lot of "superiority" thrown at me in many forms by people who automatically figure that anyone who disagrees with their beliefs about this subject means they have no knowledge of the subject (or at least have less than they have).

I might no longer be a "Christian" but that is no reflection whatsoever upon my love of Jesus or belief in who He truly "was." In fact my love for Him and my bond with Him (or "attachment") is greater than almost any Christian I have ever met. It is so strong and "otherworldly" that it defies my limited capacity to define it, let alone describe it. I am very much a "Christ-ian." I am in NO way a "Christian." That's because the two things are diametrically opposed (though only the rarest Christian will ever be able to recognize that because once they do, they would be very unlikely to continue calling themselves a "Christian" unless it was important "socially" to do so - or for business, etc.).

No offense taken.  I don't think that barb-throwing debates are very productive.  My preference is discussion with mutual respect for diverse opinions.  I find your viewpoint of being a Christ-ian rather interesting, if a bit confusing.  Are you saying, in your post as an entirety, that having a relationship with Jesus is solely an individual experience?  Jesus indicated several types that following Him involves a group experience.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#96    Paranoid Android

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 20 February 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

I hope that will finally put this to rest. (But, as I've said several times, I seriously doubt it).
I give up, Shabd.  I don't need childish signs from you to imply something about my motives for posting, especially when you are so wildly off the mark that it is not funny.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#97    Kazahel

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:16 PM

I found this thread quite interesting in many ways.  Thanks Shabd for sharing it.


View PostShabd Mystic, on 20 February 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

Jesus said the very same thing in some Gnostic texts, such as:

"Seek not the law in your scriptures for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly Moses received not his laws from God as writing but through the living word. The law is living word for living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life to the law is the law written, for I tell you truly all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. I tell you truly that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in his works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are from the hands of men?"

~ Jesus Christ (Essene Gospel of Peace)

I especially liked that. I'll have to check that out more.


#98    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostJ. K., on 20 February 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

No offense taken.  I don't think that barb-throwing debates are very productive.  My preference is discussion with mutual respect for diverse opinions.  I find your viewpoint of being a Christ-ian rather interesting, if a bit confusing.  Are you saying, in your post as an entirety, that having a relationship with Jesus is solely an individual experience?  Jesus indicated several types that following Him involves a group experience.


Yes, it is truly an individual thing. We come into this world alone and we leave it alone. No matter how many friends, relatives and worldly possessions we have, when death comes, we face it alone.

"Following" Him might have been a group "experience," but Jesus never would have "quit" had He only one disciple. He never would have refused to speak had only one person come to listen.

The way Jesus spoke to His Father was via prayer (meditation). That was done ALONE.

And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone. ~ Matthew 14:23

And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed. ~ Mark 1:35

Jesus clearly specifies in the Bible that "prayer" is to be done alone. It's not to be done in a '"group." He was talking about "true prayer" which is meditation. That is the ONLY type of prayer where He, or anyone else, could see the Father and speak to Him and be spoken to by Him. Any other type of "prayer" is a completely different thing. (Or what most Christians think of as "prayer.)

"When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get." ~ Matthew 6:5

True prayer is meditation. That's why it is done ALONE. It's one on one. You and God. Nobody else. True prayer is not reciting a pre-written bunch of words.

But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. ~ Matthew 6:7

It's not even words you came up with on your own (though that is better). True prayer is not "asking God for things." He's God. He knows what we want. He knows what's best. He knows our every thought and feeling. He knows them before we even know them. And He knows all the subconscious fears and desires that we aren't even aware of.

True prayer is complete silence. It's meditation.

Be still, and know that I am God! ~ Psalm 46:10

It's stopping the mind completely. It's stopping the thinking about your job, your love life, your ambitions, your failures, your friends, your enemies ... It's stopping your focus on "you." It's shutting up and letting "God speak."

It's, through the practice of meditation, being able to separate the soul from the body and literally enter the "spirit world."

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit." ~ John 4:24

THAT is how we worship God. By eliminating the "me" and focusing only on the "He." That is meditation in a nutshell.

"Thou hast showed us that which the eye has not seen, and caused us to hear that which the human ear has not heard. Thou has freed us from death and united us with Life, released us from darkness, and united us with Light."  ~ Canonical Prayer Book of the Mandaeans

It sounds simple. Just close your eyes and stop thinking. Try it. Stop all thought. Just for a single minute. Heck, just a half minute. Ten seconds ... There is an old saying from a Great Master that if you could just still your mind for 3 seconds the world would be at your command. Three seconds might be a bit of an exaggeration but it's close and it makes the point dramatically.

That means to completely still it. That means you completely lose awareness of yourself and your surroundings. Eckhart Tolle's entire reason for fame is because he was able to still the mind. And he is a "mystic" of the lowest possible degree. (And barely a mystic at all.) Yet his fame and fortune came solely from his mind being stilled. Nothing else. (And that very fame and fortune is what is going to cost him everything he had achieved. From his behavior and statements of late it is clear that he's already begun to lose it all and that he is very much engulfed by "ego.")

THAT is prayer. That is worship of God. Prayer isn't "asking for things." I've always believed the ultimate prayer "outward prayer" is "Thy will be done." What God wants for me is surely good enough for me. Who am I to tell Him how to do his job?

People hardly pray to Him for His grace, for His blessings, for helping them to merge back into Him. They usually pray to Him for their sons, their litigations, desires to be fulfilled. They never pray to Him for His sake. They only want to make Him their means, an instrument to satisfy their desires. ~ Maharaj Charan Singh


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#99    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 20 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I give up, Shabd.  I don't need childish signs from you to imply something about my motives for posting, especially when you are so wildly off the mark that it is not funny.


Good to hear. I'm glad you're finally going to let it drop. Thank you.


#100    J. K.

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 20 February 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Yes, it is truly an individual thing. We come into this world alone and we leave it alone. No matter how many friends, relatives and worldly possessions we have, when death comes, we face it alone.

"Following" Him might have been a group "experience," but Jesus never would have "quit" had He only one disciple. He never would have refused to speak had only one person come to listen.

I don't dispute what you say that our relationship with Jesus is individual, nor do I think that group interaction is required for salvation.

However, how would you interpret these verses?

As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.  John 17:18-23

To me, this indicates that there is a 'oneness' that we experience as a group.


And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.  Matthew 15:18

A 'church' is a a gathering of those who are disciples of Jesus.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#101    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:44 PM

View PostKazahel, on 20 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I found this thread quite interesting in many ways.  Thanks Shabd for sharing it.



That is the best thing I've ever read on this board. I am so glad that anyone developed even the slightest interest from anything I've shared.

"Seek and ye shall find."

Many a treasure has been discovered due to the birth of curiosity. Perhaps it will prove to be a dead end for you, but the only guarantee of a "dead end" is to never even look.

If it ends up panning out for you, you will discover riches beyond your ability to even dream of.

As many a Mystic has said, so much of what is seen and experienced in the various heavens is beyond the mind's capacity to describe because there is nothing like it available to humans. It's like trying to describe a new color which isn't made up, even in part, of any other color known to man. It's like one type of light seen during meditation that is 'brighter than 100 suns but doesn't hurt the eyes." It sometimes described as an almost a "silver" or "metallic" light, but nothing like you would imagine "light" to be.

The same is true of the "Shabd" or "Word." It's called "music" but is it so unlike the music we all know, and so far beyond it, that it defies description.


View PostKazahel, on 20 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I especially liked that. I'll have to check that out more.


The Gnostic writings are fascinating but like anything else there are a few that were written by people with more of an imagination than a true access to Jesus (or God). The Gospel of Thomas is the best of them all in my opinion, and most Biblical scholars now agree that it was written earlier than anything that ended up in the Bible, and in fact, was the source of much that went into the Bible (though a lot was then "jazzed up" by the men who compiled the books of the Bible).

It makes for a great read, though much is so "mystical" that it's often hard to comprehend. (Though it becomes clearer over time.)

All of it is available online. You might want to start here:

The Gnostic Society Library


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#102    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:45 PM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 17 February 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

Was Christ a Yogi?

This is a chapter from a book on yoga (note to moderators: it is copyright free). I thought some people might be interested in what it says, while others will just be interested in ridiculing it.  :P

Either way, it should be of interest to some so I figured I'd post it. (If I was a gambling man I'd bet the ones interested in ridiculing it most likely won't even bother reading it, lol, Or, at least, will only read a few lines of it.)


Interesting post...  I would like to ask, if you have a source for the OP?  I would like to read more on that and maybe explore the web site?   If that is possible

When I first glanced at your topic I thought of Yogi bear lol  Hey hey hey Mr Ranger sir !!  I was going to say - Maybe if Christ loved his picnic baskets  lol Posted Image

View PostShabd Mystic, on 18 February 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

What I have to wonder is if Christianity was truly God's idea, why didn't He do a better job with it? Why are there so many questions and contradictions and multiple interpretations of everything?

I personally do not think it was...It doesn't sound like a good idea from an all perfect being, because if it were then why put imperfect humans to run it and spread it?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 20 February 2012 - 04:47 PM.

Posted ImageRAW Berris... Dare you enter?

If there's a heaven...I hope to hell I get there !

#103    sutemi

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostHabitat, on 20 February 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

The problem of mysticism is that 'unity consciousness' is impenetrable by rational thinking, which only recognizes discrimination, difference, and distinction, else it has nothing to process or compare. And that is why mysticism seems like utter nonsense to the modern scientific mindset.
Hi Habitat, I agree with you, itís funny when someone has been touched by the creative force in some way, they begin to see it everywhere and yet as you say it seems like nonsense to the Logical mind but people forget that Logic only works in a very limited way. After many 100s of years, Logic has given Science knowledge of 5% of the universe, just 5% not much really and leaves so much room for a creative force.  All around us is Dark energy, 70% of EVERYTHING is an unknown energy! Then thereís that Dark Matter all around us, 25% of everything is made of a form of matter that defies understanding! So much they donít understand with their Logic but they do love it.


#104    Star of the Sea

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:36 PM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 20 February 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

You really have me confused with this. As I said, the "Word" isn't actually a word (or words). It's not something that can be spoken or written. "Word" is just another name attached to it.

Every religion has a name for it, actually many names. The Bible calls it many things such as "Word," Logos," "Holy Ghost," "Living Waters" and other names. It is literally "music" that can only be heard via meditation. When you start hearing that music it slowly begins to become so powerful that you actually absorb yourself into it.

When you begin hearing it (in the right ear ONLY) it slowly begins to change you in countless ways. All your "faults" begin to disappear, such as anger and greed, etc., and most importantly the ego slowly begins to fade.

That "Word," or "Logos" or "Music" literally takes you to all Heavens after time (when you become "worthy" enough through the loss of all your faults and vices). It's not "imagination" or "unreal" or a "dream" or anything close to that. It is, in fact, so much more "real" than anything you have ever experienced that life becomes rather unreal.

Some have referred to it as the Kings Highway. As you progress you not only begin to lose all your faults over time but they are replaced with wonderful qualities. Also, over time, you gain all sorts of "powers" all the way up to the ability to "raise the dead" (or as some have said, the ability to move mountains).

It isn't anything "occult." It is the exact same thing that all the great Mystics have done. Countless others have done the same thing but you have never heard of any of them because only those designated by God to "teach" the way to go "Home" to Him ever let anyone even know they might have any such "powers."

All "powers" are NEVER to be used. (Unless you are so designated as Buddha or Jesus were.) As they say, you use them, you lose them. They aren't "granted" for anyone to use them. To use them would mean there was ego involved and ego is the only thing separating us from God. if anything they are only granted to "test" you as any "failure" will destroy anything you've accomplished to that point. If you ever see or meet a TRULY humble man (vs. someone who tries to act humble) who has little or no ego, I guarantee he (or she) has all sorts of "powers."

But they are meaningless to anyone pursuing this Path. They are nothing but a distraction to those who obtain them. What you are trying to gain, God realization, is so far beyond any 'powers" granted that by the time you gain them you couldn't care less. All you see is "God' and He is all you care to "obtain." The Mystics of the more recent centuries (such as Kabir, Nanak, Rumi, Sawan Singh, etc., all say the same things. They lay it ALL out in clear language and in great detail.

I realize this sounds downright crazy, lol. Well, at least to most Westerners (though that is changing too) but every single thing on the Path to God is spelled out by the modern day Masters (going back some time now). They tell you what you will see and experience all the way up to the highest Heaven. There is no "imagination" as it is the same identical thing for every person who follows the Path back to God. It's nothing like an "acid trip" that is supposedly a "mystical experience" and that is very "unreal" and completely different every time it happens. What you see, hear and experience is so incredible it defies description. What little all the Masters are able to even try to describe sounds absolutely incredible yet they all say the human mind is incapable of truly describing it.

It is the EXACT same Path Jesus and Buddha and Kabir and Muhammad and Nanak and Moses and many others have taken. The only difference is that the Masters of the distant past all had to  describe it using allegory or parables or numerous other ways because it  was very dangerous to teach such things and they had to be careful how  they taught, and who they taught. That completely defies what Christians are taught to "believe" (and believing what they are told to believe is supposedly essential) but it doesn't rely on "beliefs" as it is all about "experience.".

The funny thing is that 99.9999% of the people who ever read something like this will dismiss it as "crazy," 'ludicrous" or much worse, lol. Instead they'll cling to one formal religion or another (that came out of the very same mystic experiences and were then created by "man" based upon misunderstood teachings of a great Mystic after He died), and convince themselves that such "insanity" won't get you anywhere (or it's a tool of "Satan," lol, as if Satan would "catch" you by making you a Perfect human being who is filled with nothing but bliss, love and compassion).

It's the only spiritual Path (or "faith" as it has absolutely nothing in common with a 'religion" - it is, in fact a science, and a Perfect science) that you can verify every "claim" made via personal EXPERIENCE. There is no "dogma." There is no "believe what I tell you and when you die you'll find out whether it was the truth or all fantasy."

It's very real and can ONLY be achieved BEFORE YOU DIE. In fact, it is very literally "death." You have to "die while living." My "buddy" Paul talked about his own mystical experiences when he said "I die daily.' When you get into a deep state of meditation the soul literally "leaves the body." The soul sees and hears and the soul travels through all the various "realms" or heavens. Paul even described the very same thing though I can't recall the specific quote. He talked about a man who went to the "second or third heaven" (I believe) and he specifically said he didn't know whether it happened "within the body or without" (meaning the guy just "flew off to heaven" or he went there via meditation).

The Bible is LOADED with mystical references because the compilers of the Bible weren't able to recognize they were speaking of mystical things (because they'd never experienced anything like it themselves) with specific quotes. The Gnostic "Gospel of Thomas" is practically 100% mystical and much of it was borrowed by some of the Biblical "authors," while much was left out because it was obviously mystical (and "mystical" was a huge threat to an organized 'church" because it teaches that the ONLY way to God is by reaching the "heaven within you." No "church" or "religion" is needed. In fact, it is counter productive.)

Jesus said the very same thing in some Gnostic texts, such as:

"Seek not the law in your scriptures for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly Moses received not his laws from God as writing but through the living word. The law is living word for living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life to the law is the law written, for I tell you truly all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. I tell you truly that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in his works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are from the hands of men?"

~ Jesus Christ (Essene Gospel of Peace)

Do you think there was any chance that would have EVER made it past the "screeners" who wanted to create a "religion" and put together a "Bible" to support that religion? NO WAY! Jesus is saying here that "scripture" can't save you. He says the same thing all the great Mystics have said, it's basically worthless (in regards to it doing anything "for you"). The Bible hadn't yet been created and here was Jesus saying anything like a "Bible" was worthless.

Of course that was going to get 'thrown out." Of course it was going to be ruled "heretical." Of course "Christians" were going to claim Jesus never said any such thing. If He had, that would mean their "Bible," and the religion attached to it, were "worthless," lol. Any "mysticism" was a HUGE threat. It didn't matter whether or not it was "true." It wasn't seeing the light of day. Their whole business ... I mean religion ... depended on destroying anything that showed Christ's teaching as mystical.

And despite that they were unable to get rid of it all. Not only because they failed to recognize obvious mystical references (or they came up with easy to sell alternate explanations), but because the Dead Sea Scrolls and all the Gnostic texts were discovered last century. And those texts knocked Christianity on its ear as MANY Christians began to question things and to look at things a lot differently. The Christian "church" did a full frontal assault to try to minimize the damage.

Countless Christians are so sold on the whole "you gotta believe in order to be saved" deal that they won't even entertain the possibility that there's a lot more to Christ and His teachings than they'd been led to believe. To even consider such a possibility automatically means you don't "believe" so you just lost out on "heaven," lol. I'm serious when I say that is pure marketing GENIUS. Nothing has ever come close to matching that. Had Paul opened an advertising agency he would have been a very rich man. :P

Most importantly, this Path I am referring to in no way threatens anybody's "religion," nor are you ever asked to give up your religion. There are numerous Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others who have followed this Path and who are now following it. It doesn't make any demands of you other than to meditate and try to live a clean and moral life. It seeks no "donations" nor do you have give any time to any "church" other than the one you already belong to if you so wish.

Anyway, I digress (and I am totally destroying my thus far valiant attempt to shut up about all this with this post but it was a rather "significant" day and right now I'm just feeling like I don't care - let everyone laugh and tear this apart. At least I will always know I "tried" and so maybe I can finally let go of this incredible desire to give away the "billion dollars" that nobody even believes exists.) So, back to the subject ...

"Word" and "Logos" are the same exact thing. They are both God, literally, and in the only form, along with light, in which He can ever be reached. He can only be reached by "going within," as Jesus tries to tell us in several Biblical quotes. That is where God is.

There is no such thing as a "wrong Word." That's like saying there is a "wrong God." And I don't know what you are trying to say with "using the wrong word to describe his Logos." That might make sense in some kind of "Christian" way, but it makes absolutely no sense to me in the way I was describing it, which is the way you are referring to if you are questioning me about how history's great Mystics (AKA "Sons of God") all referred to it.

If you can explain what you mean I will be happy to try to answer you, but right now I'm lost on your meaning (of course after all this I expect you'd rather "run for cover" in case insanity is contagious :lol:).



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Hi Shabd,

Sorry about not being very clear with my post! What I am trying to convey is this: if the article you posted finds mentioning the Bible as worthy, then it must hold some weight. But what I am finding difficult (and I don't mean to be pedantic) to understand is this: if God is 'sound' then why wouldn't it say in the Bible "In the beginning was the Sound, and the Sound was with God, and the Sound was God"  Don't you think it would be odd to think that God incarnate as Jesus to be portrayed as 'The Sound' whereas "The Word" as Christians know him, resonates (sorry no pun intended :P ) much better and makes literal sense?  Jesus' words are where we find the truth IMO.

Anyhow, I respect other peoples faiths and enjoyed reading your post. One thing though, I do not believe as a Catholic that 'all you need is faith to be saved" I believe you have to "walk the walk and not just talk the talk":)

Edited by Star of the Sea, 20 February 2012 - 08:41 PM.

"Love one another as I have loved you" John 15:9-17

#105    Shabd Mystic

Shabd Mystic

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostJ. K., on 20 February 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I don't dispute what you say that our relationship with Jesus is individual, nor do I think that group interaction is required for salvation.

However, how would you interpret these verses?

As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.  John 17:18-23

To me, this indicates that there is a 'oneness' that we experience as a group.


And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.  Matthew 15:18

A 'church' is a a gathering of those who are disciples of Jesus.


Hi J. K.,

I could break down each Biblical quotation but I think the better way to approach this is to look at the different things the Bible seems to be saying and then look at them from the perspective of "who does this benefit?" In other words, what interest does this serve?

Jesus was very clear in saying that prayer (worship) must be done in private. The word synagogues in: "When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on  street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them" is the same thing as "churches." There were no "churches" back then. They were Jewish and therefore called synagogues.

Obviously Jesus said that solely in the interest of "you" (or anyone He was talking to).

Anything that disagrees with that therefore opposes the word of Jesus. If that isn't enough to automatically say it is invalid, then I would ask what do you think might motivate men who decided what to publish as "The Bible," who were seeking to form a "religion" to be supported by "churches?"

Why would anything be added to The Bible that ever contradicted the words of Jesus? If anything contradicted Jesus then it was added either by mistake or because it served the purposes of those who created The Bible. There is no other possibility unless you are saying that Jesus was wrong in saying ""When  you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on  street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them."

Do you think He was mistaken? Was that quote vague in any way? Did He forget to add an asterisk that said "* this doesn't apply when Christian churches are built as then it will not only be fine to 'pray publicly' but will be essential?" Do you think He was really just saying that "Jews" who prayed publicly were hypocrites but "future Christians" will be the salt of the earth?

Now that that's out of the way ...

I don't think believe either of your quotations are even saying what you think they are (particularly the first one), but my interpretation is meaningless because if they are saying what you believe then that either means Jesus was wrong or those quotations are wrong. There is no other possibility under the interpretation I "believe" you are making for those quotations.

But all that now said, Jesus saying to pray in private in no way contradicts the generic idea of "churches" or gatherings of spiritual-minded folks. Such gatherings to discuss ideas or teachings, or even to read and listen to scripture, is not the same as "praying" as a group or among a group. Churches can function just fine without anyone ever praying there. It was the churches who decided to have people pray there, not Jesus. He clearly stated that was not supposed to happen.

Even the Path I follow allows, if not encourages, like-minded folk to get together once, or twice, every month for an hour or less just to listen to someone (people who do it take turns) read the words of past Masters. They are told such gatherings are like "a fence built around crops." Such gatherings won't cause you to take a single step forward spiritually, but they will help prevent you from taking a step backward.

It's sort of like a "pep rally" to allow you to put aside all your worldly concerns for a little while and to just think about God and His sons and do so in the company of other spiritual people with the same goals. There is nothing wrong with any "churches" and there can be a lot of good about them. Unfortunately, in most cases people believe, and the churches teach, that church is a place to "pray" despite what Jesus clearly tells them.

"Christianity" becomes a problem when the teachings of Jesus are changed, misinterpreted or ignored. And history has an infinite number of great examples such as The Crusades. The problem is not the teachings of Jesus, it's man's constantly molding them to his own desires. And the "praying" is but a very minor example of that. It's not until someone is able to "suspend' for a while all the things pounded into his head via organized Christianity that he can even begin to see the true teachings of Jesus. And until he starts to recognize and understand the teachings of Jesus, any hope he has of ever "going Home" is mere fantasy.




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